Help with fast scales

[ballade_1]

In a 2-3 weeks I've finally got to record Chopin's first ballade at school, and although most of it is more or less there, I'm still having trouble with those quite fast scales at the end. I can play them, just not fast. Or if I try and play them fast they end up very uineven. I'm also guessing that pedal is a big no-no.

Is there any good way to improve these quickly? Part of the trouble comes from the fact that the last two are hands together, and because some fingers are weaker than others on both hands, it's hard to get it even throughout and across both hands. At the moment I'm literally just playing them over and over hoping for something to just happen, but it isn't. So I was wondering if anybody could please recommend me some good excercises or ways or tackling them to make them easier? I don't do many technical excercises such as scales to be frank, which probably doesn't help...

Doesn't have to be specific to those few scales in particular, can be just fast scales in general. Thanks for any help!

[gyzzzmo]

I dont do scales either, but its definitely a disadvantage for the final page of this beautiful piece
I trained these 2 by doing them in different rhythms and accents, faster and faster till i finally managed playing them on a good speed. And yes, no pedal those scales

gyzzzmo

[thierry13]

You can actually use subtle half-pedals when you get it right without it. Much richer and more beautiful sound.

[richard black]

Frankly I wouldn't dream of playing those scales without pedal.

[guendola]

There are two rhythmic alterations that will help getting to the right tempo, apply them to reasonable chunks of the scales. These exercises can be done with both hands together.

Supposed, the scales are in 8th:

Step one: Play every second note fast. Every first note becomes a dotted 8th, every second note a 16th. Same pattern reversed. You want to reach a tempo at which the 16th are faster than the 8ths of the original scales. The other pattern is one 8th and two 16ths. For this you have to set the tempo way lower. Keep the tempi moderate, slow enough to avoid any mistakes.

Step two: Play 2/3 of the notes fast. One 8th and two 16ths. For this you have to set the tempo way lower. Keep the tempi moderate, slow enough to avoid any mistakes.

At least one of the exercises will screw up the measures but that doesn't matter because:

Besides, you play the scales at low tempo with an accent on each and every note (original note lengths now). Pretend that you are showing your brain what notes have to be played, by which finger and in which order. This helps to settle the hand into the right positions and to avoid mistakes in fingering.

For these exercises, forget about expression. Play them at p, mf and f and make sure that you feel comfortable all the time.

Don't do this for hours, just check how fast you can get with these exercises once per day (you start a bit slower than you finished last day). And if problems occur, check what is wrong (hand position, flat fingers, flying fingers, tilted wrists etc.) and correct it.

Don't try to play the scales at the real tempo before you can't do the exercises so fast that the 16ths are a bit faster than the target tempo. It is very tempting to try how fast you can get, but it will most likely teach you new mistakes.

If your fingers are fast enough, you will reach the right tempo in a few days.

I don't like the idea of pedal cheating, it will sound much better if you get the tempo right.

[gyzzzmo]

I agree, no pedal cheating on this one. If you play this one for public it will probably be on a Grand and a decently sized room. The grand and the room will do that 'pedalling' for you anyway.

[slobone]

guendola, you beat me to the punch. That's correct, the way to develop evenness in scales is not to practice them evenly, but to practice them in a way where you control which notes are accented and what's happening with the rhythm. My last teacher called this method "acciacaturas", but I think that would only apply to short, long, short, long.

I would only add that the short notes should be very fast, which might require the long notes to be very slow. Groups of two, three, and four. LONG ------- short, short, short. Change it up, so the next time it's short, LONG --------- short, short, etc.

If necessary, practice hands separately until you know the fingering so well you can do it in your sleep. And always use a metronome (but not when you're using the long-short method.)

The only thing I disagree with is only doing this once a day. That might be good advice in the long run, but if you only have a couple of weeks, do them more intensively, maybe 10-15 minutes a day.
 

[guendola]

The only thing I disagree with is only doing this once a day. That might be good advice in the long run, but if you only have a couple of weeks, do them more intensively, maybe 10-15 minutes a day.

Agreed, I should have put that more clearly: By starting at a lower tempo, say you finished at 100 last day, you start at 80, increasing today to perhaps 110 or, you will have to play it a couple of times, you will have to stop for uneven notes, rehearse them a bit, try again etc. That will do perfectly (believe me, I did this so often). The point is that by playing a few notes fast, you are able to attain the right tempo and figure out how to play so fast. Fingering is usually not an issue but you might have to shift your hand a split second earlier or later, or simply prepare to shift and other small details that wouldn't have occured to you ever before. The real ability to play fast comes from your nerves which have to trigger the muscles in time and from your brain which has to deliver the notes to be played - roughly speaking. The exercises are somewhat equivalent to a formula one pilot checking a new racing course before the race.

[popdog]

I have used methods similar to those outlined by guendola and can vouch for the fact that they can really work miracles at even shortly before a performance, and especially on fast passages (which is exactly what you need to work on).  I reckon that would be your best bet. 

[ballade_1]

Thanks for all the advice, I'll give it a try.

It is very tempting to try how fast you can get, but it will most likely teach you new mistakes.

The story of my piano playing life 

Edit: Actually, will this method work with the hands seperate ones before those too? Like the big descending one. I know that it's different with that because it jumps up every so often - it's not a perfect scale all the way down. And I could play the chromatic one fine but now after ages of having played it my fingers have gotten very confused. They think that there's gonna be a group of three black notes every time  I don't want to confuse them even more though. Will it work?

[slobone]

Actually, will this method work with the hands seperate ones before those too? Like the big descending one. I know that it's different with that because it jumps up every so often - it's not a perfect scale all the way down. And I could play the chromatic one fine but now after ages of having played it my fingers have gotten very confused. They think that there's gonna be a group of three black notes every time  I don't want to confuse them even more though. Will it work?

Absolutely. As long as you've learned the notes well enough to know which note is coming next. If you're not at that point yet, do slow practice and many many repetitions until that's not a problem.

PS This is really a variant of a broader method my teacher called "stopping on notes." For example, play the first four notes really fast and stop and hold the fifth note. When you've got that down, try playing the first five notes really fast and stopping on the sixth note. Etc. This helps when changing hand position (4 followed by 1 etc) is an issue.

PPS If all else fails, why not try using "creative" rubato and play the double scales really really slow instead of really really fast?

PPPS Carl Tausig played them in double thirds instead of single notes...

[thierry13]

PPPS Carl Tausig played them in double thirds instead of single notes...

Didn't quite have a piano like we have them nowadays

[guendola]

Thanks for all the advice, I'll give it a try.

The story of my piano playing life 

Edit: Actually, will this method work with the hands seperate ones before those too? Like the big descending one. I know that it's different with that because it jumps up every so often - it's not a perfect scale all the way down. And I could play the chromatic one fine but now after ages of having played it my fingers have gotten very confused. They think that there's gonna be a group of three black notes every time  I don't want to confuse them even more though. Will it work?

It will certainly work! Anything that goes straight in the same note length and without rests (well, a few are okay, you can split the chunks there)!

But perhaps you want to avoid hands together because that causes a problem? In that case you should increase the tempo with single hands and accuracy with hands together (i.e. way slower without speeding up).