What should I play to learn the piano?

[aileigc]

Hi all.

this is my first time here and so I will give you a complete account of my present state piano level (kind of), before asking my question.

Still, even before that, just a remark. Why does this board say it is open only to teachers, professional pianists and university/college students? I can say immediately I do not qualify, but at least give me this chance to ask and do not throw me out just yet.

Now, my experience. I'm 28 years old. I had 2 years of piano lessons when I was 7 until 9. After that, I had three months of lessons when I was 23. Since I was 13 years old, I had an electronic organ at home and that's where I did all my "piano" (rather call it keyboard) study up to today (almost). It was not a complete waste, but having only 44 keys, no weight on the keys and inadequate sustain has taught me to not having any illusions regarding all those years. Still, I think I acquired, at least, some finger nimbleness, sight-reading, familiarity and chord positions.

Still, I love the piano beyong the imaginable, and I bought a digital piano a month ago, more or less. I'm going through a major change in my life, now, since my whole life's dream (to have a piano I can call my own and where I can play at any time) has been accomplished. But now, I do want to learn the piano. I've been practicing every day. Using what I knew from the organ, I can timidly say I "play" the first movement of Moonlight, Für Elise, Raindrop Prelude, WTC Prelude in C Major (n 1), some Haydn Serenade, Love Story (Francis Lai) and Bach's Minuet in G to the point where the technique is not a concern. I don't play it perfect all the time, but I feel I dominate it enough to not be scared by any part of it.

My questions are: what should I play to improve myself? Should I make a program for me? Also, I've found a book on the net by Chang Chuan called "Fundamentals of Piano Practice". There he rails a lot against Hanon and also I've heard opinions of other people in that Hanon's exercises are much criticised nowadays and should not be used. Well, I have Ferté's reduction of Hanon's and can easily find Hanon's in the net. Also, I'm still reading through Chuan's book and I find most of his teachings make a lot of sense. I used to practice HS most of the time but jump to soon to HT; I have acquired faster hands and a more courageous mindset after having read perhaps a quarter of the book (as it is online, still incomplete). But since I'm a total amateur and have no reference point of view, I'd like to know if I should really do Hanon or forget all about him and follow more Chuan's methods.

My main faults: I'm a stutterer, that is, being self-taught, I stop as soon as I make a mistake; I don't have a feeling for the sustain pedal; I don't have technique, that is, I learnt how to play scales and that's it. The organ has helped me with chords, and KV545 and Beethoven's Op49 have helped me with arpeggios, but since I moved to the piano, I haven't yet tried these (it's only a month, after all). Learning to decouple the hand has been easier than I thought. I'm very happy with my Moonlight 1st Mov, in that I can make a very soft accompaniment in both hands while the melody comes out very perceptibly. Still, playing the LH loud when the RH should be soft is still a problem.

Favourite composers: Beethoven overall and Chopin in Piano music. I tend to find Bach and in general Baroque and Classical music very plain and boring. Still, that does not apply to all of them. I love Romantic music. I think after those two, I favour Schubert. Curiously, in orchestral works, I find Mahler's and Wagner's romantism very boring to me. (I just wanted to be accurate towards my feelings)

Dream-like aims: this is, the pieces I'd love to play someday. Or course they are all well-known, but that's how I decided I'd like to play them: I like how they sound very especially.
- Beethoven: Moonlight (full), Pathétique, Appassionata, Fantasy in Gm Op.77, Turkish March (from the Ruins of Athens, not Mozart's Alla Turca) maybe others. I love Beethoven above all others so I'm partial.
- Mozart: Fantasy in Dm (I think it has a very romantic, post-Mozart feeling), Variations on Ah Vous Dirai-je Maman"
- Chopin: Ballade Op.23, Nocturne Op 9.No2, Valse Op.64 n.2, Fantasia-Impromptu
- Rachmaninoff: Variations on Pagananini's theme (just number XVIII).
- Others: nothing comes immediately to mind. There are lots of piano music I love and would love to play, but these are perhaps my most permanent desires.

What I Could "Play" in the organ: Turkish March, Beethoven Op.49 n1 and n2, Kv545, some Sonatinas by unknown authors, 1st page of the Fugue from Bach's Toccata and Fugue in Dm, Pathétique 2nd Mov, a number of minor things I don't recall.

Current Work: In a Persian Market (transcription for piano, of course), "Murder She Wrote", "Ballade Pour Adeline"

Now, I know this is long and perhaps you're one of the few who read up to here, or at least jumped directly to the end, but the piano has been for a very long time a dream of mine. I know the chance of being an accomplished pianist is now beyond me, but nevertheless, I believe I can be good enough to give me pleasure (and even to play for friends. They liked the Raindrop! ;-) )
I don't have, for the time being, much possibilities of attending classes and I'm happy with being self-taught and taking my own rhythm, so I ask of you a little time to think about my questions and please, give me your best advice. Thank you

Alex

[donjuan]

Hi Alex,
I understand where you are coming from.  Only a handful of people here are teachers, professional pianists and university/college students.  I, myself am a self motivated student who only recently took interest in the piano.  Just four years ago, I could only manage crappy simplified wedding music, and today I'm working on virtuosic Grade 11 piano music.  

anyway, about your questions- I have Hanon- "The Virtuoso Pianist" exercises, and love them very much.  They are excellent for developing independent fingers while maintaining a quiet hand.  Don't listen to anyone who tells you these exercises are dated and useless.  

To improve yourself:  attempt works that are far, FAR above you- Liszt Etudes, Rachmaninoff preludes...whatever seems monstrous and impossible.  Don't get bogged down with boring monotonous exercises making up your repertoire.  The first difficult piece I attempted to get out of my cold streak was Debussy- Claire de Lune.  It took me months to even finish learning the notes.  That was four years ago.  Today, Stuff like Claire de Lune is everyday-like-normal sightreading practice.

I also don't have a taste for bach.  If you like the Romantic composers, try the romantic composers- Liszt, Alkan, Schubert, etcetc...

As for your dream pieces, I suggest you buy a REAL piano for the Beethoven and Mozart pieces (actually you could probably play Mozart's Fantasy Dm, it's quite easy..), or buy a real GRAND piano for the Chopin and Rachmaninoff.  If you want to play the heavy composers, you will need a heavy piano.  

I also have a digital Piano.  I use it with headphones when the house needs to be quiet for the family.  But, I also have a Grand Piano.  If I didn't have that real piano, I would have never been able to play Liszt, Chopin, or Rachmaninoff in the way they are meant to be played.  Also, for those various Beethoven pieces, you will stand a better chance with a real piano.  Appasionata requires technical standards no digital piano can offer.

I hope my advice has been helpful.

Good Luck,
donjuan  
           

[Antnee]

I second everythong Donjuan has said.

Bach is very important as well though. Even if he isn't your cup of tea. He will help you develope a certain finger independence that will sometimes amaze you.
Yes make sure you tackle more difficult pieces for technique aquisition. But I like to use this rule. If you can't get a difficult section up to speed within a week or two, hands separate, without hurting your hands, then you may want to try an easier piece. Good luck with your studies!!

-Tony-

[dj]

WHAT??? no no do not learn pieces way too difficult for you as you WILL learn them wrong and if they are pieces you love, then even when you do have proper technique it will be very hard to apply to a piece you have already learned wrong. my advice to you would be to get a teacher who will be able to properly asses where you are technically and assign pieces which will improve your technique without taking years to learn. if you do it right, it will not take you long to achieve your goals. good luck

[donjuan]

WHAT??? no no do not learn pieces way too difficult for you as you WILL learn them wrong and if they are pieces you love, then even when you do have proper technique it will be very hard to apply to a piece you have already learned wrong. my advice to you would be to get a teacher who will be able to properly asses where you are technically and assign pieces which will improve your technique without taking years to learn. if you do it right, it will not take you long to achieve your goals. good luck

dj,
aileigc clearly stated in the post that he doesn't have the possibility of attending classes.  It's clear he simply wants to make music for the sheer pleasure.  I think it is best for him to discover things on his own, rather than follow boring prescription lessons from a teacher.  

That's how many people lose interest in the piano.  That's how I lost interest in the piano and quit for 3 years--only after I discovered the music I wanted to play and formulated some ambition would I start again.
of course dj, im sure you are right about the path, but probably not for aileigc--he's 28 years old and the last thing someone in his position needs is order and methodical approaches to music, (and im getting redundant here...) that is how someone forgets how to listen to music...If he does what you suggest, he'll grow tired of the music and any ambition or dreams would disintegrate...
donjuan

[bernhard]

Spend sometime reading through the various threads in this forum.

Many people asked similar questions, and there are a variety of answers.

If you can, get a teacher. Tell him/her what your final aim is (e.g. playing a Beethoven sonata) and ask him/her to design a study plan that will get you there.

Above all, don't listen to me, but Hanon is dated and useless, he he.

Boa sorte,
Bernhard.

[aileigc]

I'd like to thank you all on your answers. I welcome each one of them. This forum does seem to be very interesting, active and with good people, so I'm bound to follow Bernhard's advice, definitely.
Thank you once again.

Alex

P.S.: can any of you comment on Chuan Changs' book please? Here is the link. Once, I showed it to a teacher who cringed at the fact of it not having any music exercise per se. I don't know, what do you think?
The link is here
https://www.sinerj.org/~loyer/PianoBook/piano-practice-a4-10pt.pdf
It's free.

[bernhard]

I'd like to thank you all on your answers. I welcome each one of them. This forum does seem to be very interesting, active and with good people, so I'm bound to follow Bernhard's advice, definitely.
Thank you once again.

Alex

P.S.: can any of you comment on Chuan Changs' book please? Here is the link. Once, I showed it to a teacher who cringed at the fact of it not having any music exercise per se. I don't know, what do you think?
The link is here
https://www.sinerj.org/~loyer/PianoBook/piano-practice-a4-10pt.pdf
It's free.

Chang's book is excellent. It cannot be recommended strongly enough.

It is only the starting point though. To follow it up, try these two books:

Seymour Fink - Mastering piano technique (Amadeus Press) - try to get the accompanying video as well.

Gyorgy Sandor - On playing the piano (Schirmerr) Particularly relevant is chapter 14 which deals with practice.

Best wishes
Bernhard.

[Hmoll]

To improve or advance from one level to another in music you need 1) patience, and 2) passion. With both of those you will be successful. However it has to be the kind of passion that will take you forward rather than distract, impede, build a wall between you and your objectives. The wrong kind of passion is found in people who only get excited about Rach. 3, Islamey, Mephisto Waltz, Gaspard. The right kind of passion is found in people who become excited about the most basic elements in music, whether they are found in a Clementi Sonatina, or in Vingt Regards #6.

Take two different students who hear a great pianist play Rach 3. The first student says "Wow great. I'm going to learn that. I don't care how long it takes!" The second student says "Wow great. I like his legato in that piece. Now I'm inspired improve the legato section in the Mozart sonata I'm working on." Which student will ultimately be more successful? Note: by successful I mean achieving what you want to with music.

The wrong kind of passion and lack of curiosity in a student leads to boredom when they are assigned exercises or pieces that cover the basic musical/technical elements. The right kind of passion embraces with an open mind anything that leads to improvement in executing those basic elements.

I would caution you against playing anything far above your abilities. The consensus among good teachers and pianists - those who know what they are talking about - is that this is not a good idea. This is especially true if you are not taking lessons. If you play Chopin prelude #15 timidly, how can you expect to handle difficult Liszt or Rach? What will happen is you will learn them the wrong way, and once you are at a level where you can actually play them - in a couple/few years - you will have to unlearn the bad habits.

99.9% of everything Bernhard says I agree with. I'm not ready to chuck the Hanon out the window just yet, but would caution against using the exercises without a good teacher. The Chuang book is very useful, but it's only one approach. The other books Bernhard mentioned are also great helps.

[bernhard]

To improve or advance from one level to another in music you need 1) patience, and 2) passion.

Beautifully written, Hmoll! and spot on too!

99.9% of everything Bernhard says I agree with.

Only 99.9%?

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Hmoll]

Only 99.9%?

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Well, there's the bit about Hanon, and the ranking of Beethoven sonatas. Otherwise...did we have the same teachers??

[bernhard]

Well, there's the bit about Hanon, and the ranking of Beethoven sonatas. Otherwise...did we have the same teachers??

I doubt it. My teachers believed in Hanon done with a coin on the back of the hands (Was Lallasvenson my teacher, I wonder, he he ).  They were mostly of French lineage (think Magda Tagliaferre and Nadia Boulanger), all of them in love with Isidor Phillipe and Alfred Cortot. So it all comes down to teenage rebellion and disrespect to authority, hehe

By the way, I am revising my Beethoven list.  

Best wishes,
Bernhard.