A. Hinton

[stormx]

Hi Alistair:

I have read your valuable contributions to this forum over the years. It seems that you are, besides your Sorabji-related activity, a COMPOSER.

I would like to listen to some of your music. Is there any available on the net?

Thanks

[ahinton]

Hi Alistair:

I have read your valuable contributions to this forum over the years. It seems that you are, besides your Sorabji-related activity, a COMPOSER.

I would like to listen to some of your music. Is there any available on the net?

Thanks

Thank you for asking. None of my recorded works is available over the internet, although you may find a few tiny extracts from them on Amazon and such sites. Details of what is available are, however, available on the Sorabji Archive website at https://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/hinton/discography.php. The Sorabji Archive also supplies these recordings direct. Details about my scores are at https://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/hinton/scores.php.

Best,

Alistair

[indutrial]

Thank you for asking. None of my recorded works is available over the internet, although you may find a few tiny extracts from them on Amazon and such sites.

I'm guilty of long holding on to my intention to pick up a copy of your string quintet from Altarus. I will sooner or later! When I do, I'll probably contact you about the score as well. Chamber settings are my favorite type of music to engage myself with and from what I've read in reviews, that piece is quite excellent. Considering its length, I would also have to clear an afternoon or evening to check it out.  Your quintet includes a double-bass, which is also interesting, considering most of the quintets I've heard simply include a second viola (Martinu, Sessions). One of my favorites, Milhaud, actually has three string quintets, one with an extra viola, one with an extra cello, and one with your preference of a double-bass.

Here's the Amazon findings:
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_m/104-5836126-5913554?url=node%3D85&field-keywords=alistair+hinton&x=11&y=14

[ahinton]

I'm guilty of long holding on to my intention to pick up a copy of your string quintet from Altarus. I will sooner or later!

No guilt, please! Quite uncalled for!

When I do, I'll probably contact you about the score as well.

You're welcome to do so, as long as you understand that the score has not been typeset.

Chamber settings are my favorite type of music to engage myself with and from what I've read in reviews, that piece is quite excellent. Considering its length, I would also have to clear an afternoon or evening to check it out.   Your quintet includes a double-bass, which is also interesting, considering most of the quintets I've heard simply include a second viola (Martinu, Sessions). One of my favorites, Milhaud, actually has three string quintets, one with an extra viola, one with an extra cello, and one with your preference of a double-bass.

There's also a Dvorák string quintet with double bass. Mozart's quintets are the most famous ones that use a second viola (and Mozart himself was, of course, a viola player), though perhaps the majority of string quintets have tended to add a second cello to the string quartet. Mine also adds a solo soprano in its finale (and it is that fifth movement that is by far the longest - the other four being of relatively conventional duration). Most of the reviews of my quintet have indeed been very positive, which is most gratifying, although with a performance like it got, I'm hardly surprised that critics went for it, because the playing (and singing) is really absolutely remarkable, especially given the short amount of time in which the piece was rehearsed from the ground up and then recorded by an ensemble none of whose members had ever previously played or sung a note of mine...

I hope that it's OK to discuss this on a PIANO forum(!)...

Best,

Alistair

[indutrial]

I hope that it's OK to discuss this on a PIANO forum(!)...
Best,
Alistair

I'm not quite worried about whether it's okay or not, though experience has proven that even discussing piano works here can be dangerous at times. Have you ever heard Milhaud's third quartet, dedicated to his poet friend Leo Latil who was killed in WWI. That piece utilizes a soprano vocalist during its final movement as well. If you want to check it out, I can send you an MP3 of it that I guarantee won't be found on CD without a lot of luck (I think nearly every recording of Milhaud's string quartets are out of print and none of his quintets  or sextet have been recorded at all  ). I've been studying Milhaud's work for some time and this is by far one of the most heartfelt works amongst his earlier compositions and one of my personal favorites. Aside from that, the Sessions and Martinu quintets are both favorites of mine. The sheer harmonic density one can gain from having 5 strings really opens up a lot of compositional possibilities and can add a lot of symphony-esque might to the pieces (especially when a cello or bass is added).

The past two centuries have also shown that you can add almost anything to a string quartet and it will sound great. Just this afternoon I treated myself to the Elysee Quartet's recent recording of Tansman's Musique a Cinque, which was written for clarinet and string quartet. While I don't think anything that he wrote was subpar, that is definitely one of my favorites amongst his vast catalogue. Another recent favorite composer of mine, the massively prolific David Loeb, has done numerous unconventional "string quartet +" settings including a quintet for guitar/string 4tet, another for clarinet/string 4tet, one for english-horn/string 4tet, some songs for baritone/string 4tet, some nocturnes for bassoon/string 4tet and two "regular" string quintets (one with two cellos, one with two violas). Sadly, none of those works are recorded.

[ahinton]

I have indeed heard that Milhaud quartet, thanks, albeit many years ago; like Villa-Lobos (whose 17 string quartets, none of which includes double bass, include some material that's well worth discovering), Milhaud perhaps suffered from an overly prolific output, from which one really has to make an effort to find the best things (incidentally, he reviewed the first French performance of some songs by Sorabji performed by soprano Marthe Martine and the composer in Paris in the early 1920s and thought that they had far too many notes!). Van Dieren's Fourth Quartet also has a double bass, although this work is also hardly ever performed; likewise, Ferneyhough's Fourth Quartet also includes a soprano.

When the very first stirrings of ideas for my own quintet began, one immediately obvious fact was the presence of the double bass (which makes itself felt right from the get-go); in fact, no violin is heard until 3'25" (the second violin's first entry) and the first violin only creeps into the texture about two minutes after that. I'm saying no more!...

Best,

Alistair

[indutrial]

I have indeed heard that Milhaud quartet, thanks, albeit many years ago; like Villa-Lobos (whose 17 string quartets, none of which includes double bass, include some material that's well worth discovering), Milhaud perhaps suffered from an overly prolific output, from which one really has to make an effort to find the best things (incidentally, he reviewed the first French performance of some songs by Sorabji performed by soprano Marthe Martine and the composer in Paris in the early 1920s and thought that they had far too many notes!).

That's definitely interesting to know. It makes perfect sense, considering the fact that Milhaud's pieces are often very economical and direct in their presentation - very much the opposite of Sorabji's complex interlacing of different ideas and the titanic virtuosity required to pull it off. Milhaud was also a very prolific song composer (he wrote hundreds of them), so he might have embodied a much more grounded point of view regarding that genre of composing. I've not heard Sorabji's songs but I can only imagine that they are a touch outside of the norm like his other works.

As for Milhaud, I think he's somewhat of a misunderstood composer. A lot of people (especially the types who inhabit forums like this) are sadly the types of people who formulate an opinion on a composer based on the most popular works and barely ever dig into the riches of the overall oeuvre. In this sense, I've often seen Milhaud judged solely on works like the orchestral Creation of the World and Scaramouche for two pianos (and other arrangements) and he gets sort of trivialized and pigeonholed as a European Gershwin or something. The light-heartedness of a lot of his pieces don't appeal to uber-serious musicians who worship romanticism and the melodrama of tortured geniuses. Amongst pianists, discussions of Milhaud don't stand a chance, since his works for that instrument just do not stand out amongst other works from that time period (though I think some of them are damned good!). Plus, he's one of those guys who was around during the same time period as the first wave of avant-garde composers, but wasn't a participant in any of those movements, so he lacks the allure and edgy fascination (or notoriety) that people sense in more controversial figures like Schoenberg, Webern, Sorabji, Cage, Xenakis etc...

Out of all the Milhaud stuff I've heard, I've not really found anything I could complain about. Even his most light-hearted works have a real charm to them, much like other neoclassical works of his fellow countrymen Auric and Poulenc and followers like Belgium's Jean Absil (who amalgamated influences of Bartok with those of Les Six). The music's not revolutionary and it doesn't aim to represent the deepest struggles of mankind's origins or some coming apocalypse, but it is a refreshing reminder of the simple dignity inherent in confident and able musical craftsmanship.

[ahinton]

That's definitely interesting to know. It makes perfect sense, considering the fact that Milhaud's pieces are often very economical and direct in their presentation - very much the opposite of Sorabji's complex interlacing of different ideas and the titanic virtuosity required to pull it off. Milhaud was also a very prolific song composer (he wrote hundreds of them), so he might have embodied a much more grounded point of view regarding that genre of composing. I've not heard Sorabji's songs but I can only imagine that they are a touch outside of the norm like his other works.

Sorabji's songs, most but not all settings of French symbolist poetry, are for the most part far from unconventional and certainly do not embrace the "complex interlacing of different ideas and the titanic virtuosity required to pull it off" of which you write and which belongs more properly as a description of some of his keyboard writing. Milhaud was an almost exact contemporary of Sorabji and the two were still in their 20s when he published that review; I cannot help but wonder whether what puzzled him may in reality have had rather more to do with Sorabji's way of setting French than his musical language per se.

As for Milhaud, I think he's somewhat of a misunderstood composer. A lot of people (especially the types who inhabit forums like this) are sadly the types of people who formulate an opinion on a composer based on the most popular works and barely ever dig into the riches of the overall oeuvre. In this sense, I've often seen Milhaud judged solely on works like the orchestral Creation of the World and Scaramouche for two pianos (and other arrangements) and he gets sort of trivialized and pigeonholed as a European Gershwin or something. The light-heartedness of a lot of his pieces don't appeal to uber-serious musicians who worship romanticism and the melodrama of tortured geniuses. Amongst pianists, discussions of Milhaud don't stand a chance, since his works for that instrument just do not stand out amongst other works from that time period (though I think some of them are damned good!). Plus, he's one of those guys who was around during the same time period as the first wave of avant-garde composers, but wasn't a participant in any of those movements, so he lacks the allure and edgy fascination (or notoriety) that people sense in more controversial figures like Schoenberg, Webern, Sorabji, Cage, Xenakis etc...

I think that's fairish comment. That said, I do also think that another problem that some people have with Milhaud is the sheer prolixity of his output; "Where does one start?" is a plaint I've heard more than once. My best suggestion is with the songs, quartets and symphonies, although with the best will in the world even I have no small amount of difficulty in figuring out what he wrote so much music; it seems as though it simply fell out of him - an impression I also get with much of the output of the even more prolific Niels Viggo Bentzon (which likewise includes some music well worth getting to know but who one pianist I know nicknames "the Danish bacon factory"). Milhaud strikes me as one who prized French elegance above certain other virtues (although I well realise as I say so that this is the most simplistic of generalisations) and, as such, comes across as a rather larger-scale and at times somewhat more serious-minded Jean Françaix.

Out of all the Milhaud stuff I've heard, I've not really found anything I could complain about. Even his most light-hearted works have a real charm to them, much like other neoclassical works of his fellow countrymen Auric and Poulenc and followers like Belgium's Jean Absil (who amalgamated influences of Bartok with those of Les Six). The music's not revolutionary and it doesn't aim to represent the deepest struggles of mankind's origins or some coming apocalypse, but it is a refreshing reminder of the simple dignity inherent in confident and able musical craftsmanship.

Again, fair comment; he doesn't often do an awful lot for me, I have to admit (and his frequent recourse to bitonality rapidly becomes rather wearing), but he does at least do what you say here, I think - and that is hardly an achievement to be undermined. I studied very briefly with one of his pupils once and the experience proved to some extent to be a useful antidote to the Darmstadt/Second Viennese School milieu in which I'd otherwise found myself in the earliest years of my musical pursuits.

Best,

Alistair

[indutrial]

I think that's fairish comment. That said, I do also think that another problem that some people have with Milhaud is the sheer prolixity of his output; "Where does one start?" is a plaint I've heard more than once. My best suggestion is with the songs, quartets and symphonies, although with the best will in the world even I have no small amount of difficulty in figuring out what he wrote so much music; it seems as though it simply fell out of him - an impression I also get with much of the output of the even more prolific Niels Viggo Bentzon (which likewise includes some music well worth getting to know but who one pianist I know nicknames "the Danish bacon factory"). Milhaud strikes me as one who prized French elegance above certain other virtues (although I well realise as I say so that this is the most simplistic of generalisations) and, as such, comes across as a rather larger-scale and at times somewhat more serious-minded Jean Françaix.

I've been studying works by Bentzon for some time and, while he's certainly been prolific over the years, his status as a "prolific composer" seems to be discussed more than the actual works that make up his catalog. It is fairly well known that his oeuvre exceeded 600, but an incredibly small percentage of those pieces have actually been explored beyond their initial performances when Bentzon originally presented them. Any question of where to start is quickly stymied by the fact that there are less Bentzon scores and recordings than there are scores and recordings by numerous composers who've not exceeded 100 opus numbers. Aside from the Tempered Piano volumes which he recorded on his own, I have only heard 2 of the numerous piano sonatas that he wrote in the last 60% of his years as a composer, and those were recorded by him as well. With his prolific amount of music, it's not even a matter of "what should I start with" as much as "what can I start with, if anything." Other prolific composers are far more obscured than he is. Jan Van Dijk from the Netherlands has doubled the amount of total compositions of Bentzon (yes, I mean 1200 opus numbers) and NONE of his work is available on recording. I've heard bits and pieces of his piano sonatinas and it absolutely makes no sense why this music has to be so completely unknown. I guess it's a widespread case of "I don't know where to start, so f**k it, I'll just ignore him and listen to another version of the Rach 3 or a new Beethoven cycle." All facetiousness aside, I'm more sure that Danish, Belgian, and Dutch composers like these generally get the shaft in the public eye because they come from smaller, more low-key countries that lack the historical clout of Germany, France, England, and the US and similarly lack the traditional "exoticisms" of Russia, Poland, Hungary, etc... (most of which are known primarily from their historical associations with the first group of countries. I mean, look at a composer like Per Norgard (another heavy-hitting Dane). He's been composing astounding music for decades (his pieces are often placed on discs alongside works by Ligeti, Xenakis, and Penderecki) and he's still almost completely unknown.

With Milhaud, I would recommend starting with a sampling of all of his different styles. The quartets are probably the best place to find his greatest musical strengths, and the rest of his chamber output is not far behind. Like I stated before, good luck actually finding recordings of the music though. Milhaud, like Bentzon, is definitely amongst numerous composers whose profundity means almost nil in the classical recording/performance world (Absil, Tansman, Jan van Dijk, Badings, Mihalovici, etc...). Surprisingly, a ton of Martinu's music has been recorded, though he's also prolific and often mentioned in the same discussions as the guys I mentioned. I think my jaw would drop to the floor if I heard about a string quartet putting on a performance of any of the numerous works by these composers that haven't been touched in years. Bentzon wrote 14 string quartets and a grand total of ZERO are feasibly available as recordings (I think the 6th quartet was recorded on a Danish LP several years ago). I've been studying Absil's 4 string quartets (imagine a Belgian cross-section between the best things found in Bartok, Tansman, and Milhaud) and I'm pretty sure I'm one of the only people who's ever purchased those scores. Milhaud's quartets have been recorded twice but both disc sets are downright impossible to find unless you're lucky enough to spot one in the school library.

[lorguemystique]

Hello Indutrial,

Not wishing to split hairs but Sibelius came from a small, low-key country but oh what magnificent music he produced 

Thanks for sharing about Jan van Dijk - I shall look into his music.

Cheers!

[indutrial]

Hello Indutrial,

Not wishing to split hairs but Sibelius came from a small, low-key country but oh what magnificent music he produced 

I wasn't saying that composers who come from low-key countries are incapable of producing magnificent music. What I meant is kind of the opposite notion. I was pointing out that it's harder for some of those composers to get their due in terms of wider appreciation, because the majority of larger music publishing establishments and the better-funded institutions are almost all in the usual Western countries. Sibelius is a standout from his own country, but even in Finland there are several composers who could stand to receive more love from the performing world. I'd like to hear some recordings of Tauno Marttinen's work, as well as Aulis Sallinen, who studied at the Sibelius Academy.

What really brought this to light for me is the output of the Scandinavian music label BIS, who are not only working on grand projects like the Sibelius Complete Edition, but have also churned out great things like Vagn Holmboe's (Denmark) complete cycle of symphonies and lots of chamber/orchestral work by composers like Kalevi Aho (Finland), another guy whose scores are rather difficult to find in libraries.

I wasn't at all suggesting that those countries don't produce good music. Absolutely the contrary.

Thanks for sharing about Jan van Dijk - I shall look into his music.

Cheers!

The only place that could possibly help you there is www.donemus.nl , a national database/publishing library for Dutch composers. Almost all of Dijk's numerous works are being held in a library over there and Donemus reprints on demand several (not even close to all) of those pieces.

[Bob]

What do you Mr. Hinton?  Is the Sorb archive your full-time job?  What's involved with that?

[ahinton]

What do you Mr. Hinton?  Is the Sorb archive your full-time job?  What's involved with that?

I founded The Sorabji Archive in the 1980s. I imagine that you know what it is for; what it involves includes encouraging and co-ordinating score-editing work, promoting his music and literature, supplying scores, literature, recordings, information, etc. Between that and my own work as a composer I think that it could be said that I have at the very least what might be described as "full-time" occupation, but I certainly do not have a "job" in the conventionally accepted sense (i.e. something provided to one by an employer), for I employ myself (and I daresay I'm one of the world's worst employers but also one of the world's worst employees, so that balances itself out more or less, I imagine). I hope that this answers your question but, if you need to know more, just ask.

Best,

Alistair

[Etude]

I'm actually somewhat surprised that there is enough interest in Sorabji (he is relatively still extremely obscure) to make a living from such a thing...  Anyway I heard the Quintet on radio 3 some time back (when was that?)... liked it a lot but couldn't help getting lost in the extremely long final movement... I imagine familiarity is a big help here... I'll have to get the CD sometime!

[lorguemystique]

Hi indutrial,

I was only being somewhat facetious in re to your mentioning about the "low-key" countries - no worries, mate - ok? 

Apropos the EWH Publishing House in Denmark - I've had it with their nasty staff - they remind me of UE in Austria.  Yes, thank you - I know the site you mention - CeBeDeM in Belgium is also a fav of mine.

Cheers!

[ahinton]

I'm actually somewhat surprised that there is enough interest in Sorabji (he is relatively still extremely obscure) to make a living from such a thing...

I certainly don't derive a fortune from that work or my own; in fact, whilst I don't mean to whinge, it's very difficult indeed, especially since (for example) some royalties can take years to get paid and some never get paid at all. The setup costs were not exactly small, either!

Anyway I heard the Quintet on radio 3 some time back (when was that?)...

I assume you to mean my string quintet. I just looked it up; 6 December 2005, as part of a series entitled British Music Focus (Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony was on the previous evening - "follow that!", I thought, rather ruefully...)

liked it a lot but couldn't help getting lost in the extremely long final movement... I imagine familiarity is a big help here... I'll have to get the CD sometime!

Thanks. Don't worry about that. I daresay you're right - and, after all, the composer himself had no small amount of trouble with it! The performers gave it their all and more and their achievement is nothing less than astonishing, especially given the small amount of time that it took to make the recording. The piece was completed in 1977 and the recording, which was made in 1999 and released in 2002, remains available, so I do hope that you manage to acquire a copy.

Best,

Alistair

[indutrial]

Apropos the EWH Publishing House in Denmark - I've had it with their nasty staff - they remind me of UE in Austria.  Yes, thank you - I know the site you mention - CeBeDeM in Belgium is also a fav of mine.

Cheers!

I'm actually contemplating ordering a number of Marcel Quinet works from Cebedem pretty soon and I certainly look forward to dealing with their courteous staff again. As for EWH's staff, they just outright behave like a stodgy, old *** company that is having trouble coming to grips with the changes in the music world, much like other worthless firms in that annoying oligopoly. I've never dealt with any outright nastiness from them, but the few responses I've received regarding this or that from them pretty much transmit an unspoken notion of "Oh, you're not a library we know or one of our distribution partners...well, f**k you then, plebeian! Good luck getting any help from me!" Aside from that, I've never received an actual informed answer regarding anything I've asked them about, well, anything. Their sales department person doesn't know how to do anything except regurgitate crap that I could find on the website myself. Not only that, but they always kick me over to Musicroom.com regarding inquiries, and those people are miserable! I'm sure that there are some excellent people working for both of these companies, but none of those people are in the positions that the public has to deal with.

As for UE, I wish they would just disappear. They're complete bottom-feeders.