Sorabji plays his own music!

[ahinton]

The music seems unfocused, boring, and bad

To you, obviously - but then you've already made that point many times; it's equally obviously not so to others, as certain posts here demonstrate.

a bit like your posts.

If that's what you really think (not that anyone cares), one might wonder why you read them - and it's no use persuading anyone that you don't, since, like Thal, you reply to them.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I could explain the general structural plan in the Goldberg Variations...or the Liszt B minor Sonata...or Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy...or Alkan Festin D'Esope...or Mendelssohn Variations Serieuses...or Ravel Gaspard...or Debussy Pour le Piano...or the Berg Sonata...or Scriabin Sonata no. 5...

But I don't have to, because you can hear it in the music.

Fine - but whilst, as Étude states, a piece need not necessarily yield all its secrets at first listening, it is perfectly possible that some people can hear that in Sorabji's music immediately; if you can't after however many listenings you've given each piece (and I take leave to doubt that there have been many), that's not Sorabji's fault or mine or Étude's.

Why do I keep referring to Mean, Lean, Green, Neon, Leon as Leon Dudley?

Because I like to

...draw attention to yourself, that's all; you certainly don't do yourself any favours by doing so and I rather suspect that you don't call Chopin Freddie or Bach Johnny Brook...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

One of the reasons that I like Godowsky is that he wrote a lot of notes,

Well, you really do know just how to dig yourself in deeper, don't you!

but most of the notes he wrote served an actual harmonic/contrapuntal purpose.

Only most of them? - your pseudo-authoritarian generosity of spirit knows no bounds, does it?! I'd have said all of them, personally.

Godowsky was also a decent pianist, I hear. 

You heard him, did you? And there I was thinking that you were much younger than that! FO course Godowsky was a fine pianist. Sorabji likewise had exceptional pianistic talent but he was a reluctant performer and was not motivated to perform as most pianists are; furthermore, we none of us have any evidence of his playing from the days when he was, albeit only occasionally performing his own work in public.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

maybe you're just wasting your time listening to a bunch of crap.

No - he's wasting it reading the same, in the form of your posts.

Best,

Alistair

[Etude]

Mr. Dvorsky should probably be aware Sorabji was reportedly a "quite staggering" pianist in his earlier days as well.  It really is a shame there is no recording of his playing back then.

[ahinton]

Mr. Dvorsky should probably be aware Sorabji was reportedly a "quite staggering" pianist in his earlier days as well.

Indeed - but then Mr. Dvorsky being "aware" of anything much above and beyond his own self-importance seems somewhat unlikely, on present form.

It really is a shame there is no recording of his playing back then.

It is, indeed - and there might have been, had it not been for Sorabji's reluctance; there are a few published leters from the 1930s in which it seems evident that some people were tying to encourage the composer to do just that - but then that's just something else of which our Mr. Divorce-key is unaware (well, we can all play the "Duddles" game, except that I propose to do it just the once rather than banging on with it as Mr Dvorsky does because he likes to draw attention to himself - what was it that Sorabji used to say about the likes of him? - ah, yes - "insects that are merely noisome like to think that they can also sting")...

Whatever anyone's view of the music of Sorabji, what is self-evident is that 35 years ago there were no authorised public performances and no commercial recordings, only a handful of published scores still in print and available and practically nothing in print about him and his work; the fact that so much has happened since in terms of score-editing and general availability, performances recordings and broadcasts and literature about the composer (details at www.sorabji-archive.co.uk) is its own testament not only to the value of that music but also to the untiring dedication of performers, record companies, concert promoters, broadcasting organisations, editors and musicologists - and had all their work been in vain because Sorabji was not worth the trouble and hardly anyone wanted to listen to this music, it would almost certainly have ceased long ago and Sorabji would have returned to obscurity.

Best,

Alistair

[Etude]

And what's more, Gulistan now has 3 commercial recordings to its name, and hopefully Opus Clavicembalisticum will soon follow suit.  If the work wasn't  worth making three seperate recordings of, then I doubt it would have happened.

[ahinton]

And what's more, Gulistan now has 3 commercial recordings to its name, and hopefully Opus Clavicembalisticum will soon follow suit.  If the work wasn't worth making three seperate recordings of, then I doubt it would have happened.

Indeed - and several other works, including St. Bertrand de Comminges, Djami, Le Jardin Parfumé, Fantaisie Espagnole and Fantasiettina also already have two. I agree with your remark here - but then I think that most people would do so, even those to whom Sorabji's music may not necessarily appeal; trying to convince pathetically entrenched dogmatists such as MD of this, however, is as much of a waste of time as it would be trying to converse with the average Mongolian in Albanian.

Must go and do some work!

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

Deleted by me.

[thalbergmad]

A strange and perhaps less than credible admission, since you always reply to them!

Best,

Alistair

Always is hardly the correct word.

I assure you there are many of your pompous windbag lectures that i bypass completely.

Thal

[Derek]

I like Sorabji. I don't know why there are so many posts tearing him apart on here...he's writing melodic, atmospheric, pleasant, music.

Ahinton, I think your time is much better spent defending Sorabji than Xenakis, personally. Not that you care of course...but I don't see much point in getting all upset about Sorabji, this music is genuinely pleasant to listen to.

I still hold my genuine opinion that there is a stark difference between music by someone like Sorabji, and music by someone like Xenakis. One of them exhibits an abiding interest in a search for beauty via intuitive and relentless composition or improvisation, the other, while perhaps interesting on some levels, removes the very human element of music that makes it pleasant to listen to for the vast majority (Xenakis).  I readily admit that is an opinion but I thought I'd just mention this so I am not placed into the same category as some of these people who clearly just like to cause trouble by saying they hate anything remotely strange or dissonant...

[mephisto]

I agree, Sorabji is almost a conservative composer: it's tonal (but of course very cromatic), there is melody and counterpoint.

[Etude]

Yep.  A lot of his pieces are in keys.  Opus Clavicembalisticum and Toccata no. 1 are centered around G# minor, The solo concerto and Sonata no. 1 around A major...  Sorabji isn't even comparable to Xenakis in any way, unless you've never heard the composer and you just listened to BIS-CD-1062/1064...

[ctrastevere]

I don't understand the attacks on his music either, but I've given up trying. I find it very revealing that michel dvorsky never once specified specifically what he's heard of Sorabji's music that led him to such a conclusion, and for that I see no reason to take him seriously.

[Etude]

And it's impossible to try to have a discussion about it with him because he just comes out with unfounded statements like "Sorabji is an idiot" or "Maybe you're wasting your time listening to crap".

[ahinton]

Always is hardly the correct word.

On reflection, I should perhaps have added the word "almost" before it; fair comment.

I assure you there are many of your pompous windbag lectures that i bypass completely.

They've bypassed me, too; I don't do that kind of stuff. I submit that pretty well everything I've written on this forum is clear and comprehensible to those with a decent knowledge of English and that, had this not been the case, plenty (and I mean plenty) of other fourm members would have mentioned it long before now and I daresay I'd have had censures from Nils as well.

Have a nice weekend.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I like Sorabji. I don't know why there are so many posts tearing him apart on here...he's writing melodic, atmospheric, pleasant, music.

Ahinton, I think your time is much better spent defending Sorabji than Xenakis, personally. Not that you care of course...but I don't see much point in getting all upset about Sorabji, this music is genuinely pleasant to listen to.

I am not a musical barrister and I do not actually "defend" - nor do I see it my rôle to "defend" - the music of Sorabji or Xenakis; they are what they are and appeal to some and not to others. I do encourage interest in Sorabji's work, to be sure, but since neither Sorabji nor Xenakis have committed any crimes I see no need to "defend" either.

I still hold my genuine opinion that there is a stark difference between music by someone like Sorabji, and music by someone like Xenakis. One of them exhibits an abiding interest in a search for beauty via intuitive and relentless composition or improvisation, the other, while perhaps interesting on some levels, removes the very human element of music that makes it pleasant to listen to for the vast majority (Xenakis).  I readily admit that is an opinion but I thought I'd just mention this so I am not placed into the same category as some of these people who clearly just like to cause trouble by saying they hate anything remotely strange or dissonant...

There is, of course, a world of difference between the music of these two composers and between what they sought to express in music; I'm sure that they were very different as human beings, too (although, as I never met Xenakis, I cannot comment about him as a person from personal experience). That said, I'm sure that Xenakis would have been horrified to think that anyone believed that he deliberately removed humanity from music making in his work. Thanks for your interest in Sorabji; I hope that you will continue to find more wonders in his work as it becomes available to listen to.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

And it's impossible to try to have a discussion about it with him because he just comes out with unfounded statements like "Sorabji is an idiot" or "Maybe you're wasting your time listening to crap".

Yes, it's not quite what you'd call intelligent and informed debate, is it?!...

Best,

Alistair

[Etude]

Yes, it's not quite what you'd call intelligent and informed debate, is it?!...

No, not at all, I don't like it when people bring their own likes and dislikes into evaluating the merits or worth of music... I don't find Xenakis' music appealing to me at all, yet I would never call him a bad composer or go so far to say he was an idiot.  What he achieved in his music was quite remarkable, albeit from the way I see it a little too preoccupied with the means and not the end.

[cygnusdei]

I thought this thread was only started a few days ago ... LOL

Don't feed the trolls.

[thalbergmad]

I daresay I'd have had censured from Nils as well.

I am sure he has got better things to do than wade through your essays.

Thal

[indutrial]

I am sure he has got better things to do than wade through your essays.

Thal

I think I'd rather wade through one of his than trod in one of yours.

[thalbergmad]

I can assure you the feeling is mutual.

I would rather cut my wrists than read any more of your big headed know it all I am superior paragraphs of piffle.

Thal

[Etude]

Hah, piffle.  Can't remember the last time someone used that word, it was long overdue.   

[ahinton]

No, not at all, I don't like it when people bring their own likes and dislikes into evaluating the merits or worth of music... I don't find Xenakis' music appealing to me at all, yet I would never call him a bad composer or go so far to say he was an idiot.  What he achieved in his music was quite remarkable, albeit from the way I see it a little too preoccupied with the means and not the end.

Well, maybe that was indeed the case. Sorabji did not, I think have quite the same internal pressures as Xenakis; on the other hand, because he was able more or less to do just what he wanted more easily than was the case for Xenakis, this made him work harder, wheres in a lesser composer it might have made him rather more complacent and work less hard. I think that, in their very different ways, Sorabji and Xenakis really strove...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I am sure he has got better things to do than wade through your essays.

Apart from the fact that I do not post "essays" here, I would have thought that, had Nils insufficient time to read what gets posted here by various people, he'd never be able to censure anyone. I'm sure that he is just as well disposed to reading your pithy and sometimes highly amusing posts as he is to reading mine and others'.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I can assure you the feeling is mutual.

I would rather cut my wrists than read any more of your big headed know it all I am superior paragraphs of piffle.

Whose posts are you writing about now? Whoever it may be, I'm quite sure that no one here wants to address the risk that you might cut your wrists under any circumstances, for that would surely undermine and curtail (a) your posting here, (b) your piano playing and (c) your banjo playing. You should at least know me well enough to realise that I don't do personal superiority, so I assume that you may be referring to someone else here; my advice to you (if you don't mind my gently giving you some) is to calm down and stop getting so uptight about whatever it is that seems to be bothering you.

As I said earlier, have a good weekend!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I am chilled Hinty.

I was simply replying to someone who appears to have trodden in one of my posts.

Thal

[ahinton]

I am chilled Hinty.

I was simply replying to someone who appears to have trodden in one of my posts.

Your mean temperature is up to you, although I hope that, whatever it may be right now, it is at least comfortable for you; as to the rest, well Beecham and Stockhausen to you, too!...

Best,

Alistair

[indutrial]

I would rather cut my wrists than read any more of your big headed know it all I am superior paragraphs of piffle.

By all means, keep the scalpel (or rusty razor) close-at-hand by the computer.

'Piffle' is the only thing that saved that post from sounding like a snivelly retort that a high-schooler would post.

I don't recall claiming that I knew everything at any point in time, but think whatever you want to think  . This poor thread isn't littered to the ceiling with MY directionless posts.

[thalbergmad]

'Piffle' is the only thing that saved that post from sounding like a snivelly retort that a high-schooler would post.

I think you have used the high - schooler remark before with other members.

You obviously have a very high opinion of yourself. Perhaps you are a famous musician, or perhaps a non-entity that wants to give that impression on forums.

I neither know nor care which one is true.

Thal

[ahinton]

I think you have used the high - schooler remark before with other members.

You obviously have a very high opinion of yourself. Perhaps you are a famous musician, or perhaps a non-entity that wants to give that impression on forums.

I neither know nor care which one is true.

On several past occasions I have urged you, albeit to no avail so far, to post contact details for the charm school that you attended; may I make another such plea now?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

On several past occasions I have urged you, albeit to no avail so far, to post contact details for the charm school that you attended; may I make another such plea now?

The School of Pompous Windbags
Easton Dene
Bailbrook Lane
Bath
BA1 7AA

[ahinton]

The School of Pompous Windbags
Easton Dene
Bailbrook Lane
Bath
BA1 7AA

I can with authority assure readers that there is no such school (and it does not sound like a charm school on any case); this fact would appear to reveal that you've never been to any such school, which was precisely what I meant in mentioning it in the first place, although it should surely not have been necessary to provide an explanation of this, since your own remarks so often speak far more eloquently for themselves.

That said, it's hard to see what this has to do with the topic.

I hope that you didn't choke on the Yorkshire pudding...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

That said, it's hard to see what this has to do with the topic.

Why ask me then? You could have just said NOTHING.

Perhaps that is beyond the realms of possibility.

Thal

[ahinton]

Why ask me then? You could have just said NOTHING.

I didn't ask you what it had to do with the topic (see your quote from me in your last message).

OK; topic, anyone?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

OK; topic, anyone?

Not you, thats for certain.

Thal

[ahinton]

Not you, thats for certain.

Sorry - a misunderstanding appears to have occurred in the Gravesend area; in writing "topic, anyone?" I naturally meant "might anyone here like to resume discussion of the thread topic?", so your response just goes to examplify the potential dangers of inadvertently misleading people by writing too few words.

Now, might anyone here like to resume discussion of the thread topic?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Sorry

No need to apologise.

Thal

[retrouvailles]

BACK ON TOPIC, has anyone made it through the end of the recording segment and would care to tell me what is on it? I have only made it to the 2nd symphony and haven't had time to hear the rest.

[Etude]

After the talk, Sorabji "plays" Gulistan and the Solo Concerto in entirety.

[indutrial]

BACK ON TOPIC, has anyone made it through the end of the recording segment and would care to tell me what is on it? I have only made it to the 2nd symphony and haven't had time to hear the rest.

I haven't listened to the recording yet, but are you referring to Piano Symphony no. 2? On the subject of that, I was wondering what the deal is with the numerous Piano Symphonies Sorabji wrote. I've heard a lot of talk (and read critical material here and there) about his Sonatas and the Opus Clavicembalisticum, but those works are often not mentioned, although they seem to account for a considerable amount of his output. I've only heard the 4th of them and it sounds pretty on par with Sorabji's other works, which is certainly a good thing.

[Etude]

The Piano Symphonies seem to be usually on about the same scale as OC (except for Symphonia Brevis), but from what I understand, they are structured in larger "chunks".  OC has 12 movements, PS4 has 3.  After OC, Sorabji often abandoned the idea of a short "Introito" and went straight into an elaborate opening movement in free form that could go on for as long as 90 minutes, while using many themes as a compositional "anchor", which require  a lot of familiarization with the music to detect.

[ahinton]

Yes - OC is quite different in structure to all of Sorabji's other large-scale works which are either more truly symphonic (i.e. with first movement more akin to a symphony per se) or massive sets of variations; OC is also atypical in that it is punctuated with fugues, whereas the other large works tend to include just one fugue apiece at or towards the close.

Best,

Alistair

[lorguemystique]

WOW!!!

What a thread and what passion!!!  I'm glad that wiser heads prevailed than the misinformed thinking of M. Dworsky.  I recall hearing a conversation recently about Sorabji's Symphonic Variations for Piano Solo and that they are being typeset.  That would be the feat of the century imho.

[indutrial]

WOW!!!

What a thread and what passion!!!  I'm glad that wiser heads prevailed than the misinformed thinking of M. Dworsky.  I recall hearing a conversation recently about Sorabji's Symphonic Variations for Piano Solo and that they are being typeset.  That would be the feat of the century imho.

If my facts remain straight, Alastair has stated that this and a few other of Sorabji's other larger manuscripts are indeed being worked on. I am certainly looking forward to looking into that work (a very long-term goal I've held on to since I heard about the piece) but I'd sooner be interested in checking out Sequencia Cyclia, Sonata V, or perhaps the piano quintets. Before I buy any large Sorabji works, though, I have already promised myself that I'd buy myself one of those three-volume scores of Finnissy's History of Photography in Sound, which I feel is a work that is undeniably worth checking out (based on portions that I've already heard and all of the info I've read about the work's characteristics).

I agree that the typesetting of such an unusually large work is indeed a landmark in the splinter world of people who actually work towards revitalizing endangered compositions and ouevres and I hope that it is a trend that catches on with other composers whose works are not properly available and/or typeset (there's an assload of this type of work that needs to go on).

[dnephi]

You are sad, strange, little men.  And you have my pity.

Daniel

[retrouvailles]

You are sad, strange, little men.  And you have my pity.

Daniel

Haha, like you should talk. You are one of the weirdest people I have encountered on da sdc (or here for that matter), and that says a lot.

[dnephi]

Haha, like you should talk. You are one of the weirdest people I have encountered on da sdc (or here for that matter), and that says a lot.

Thanks.  I at least didn't make all the garbage that is this thread. 

but one of the weirdet people on SDC?  Wow, that pushes the limit.  You have to be pretty weird to go there in the first place.

[retrouvailles]

Thanks.  I at least didn't make all the garbage that is this thread. 

but one of the weirdet people on SDC?  Wow, that pushes the limit.  You have to be pretty weird to go there in the first place.

Well, you go there, so you definitely qualify. And I wouldn't call everything in this thread garbage, most especially not Sorabji's own recordings and the commentary. Even though the playing isn't perfect, it's a significant recording because it's a composer playing his own works. Now, if you have nothing of value to add to this thread, leave.