Sorabji plays his own music!

[michel dvorsky]

Do I have to have held public office to be able to criticize the President?

Bad logic!

[Etude]

What of Sorabji have you heard?

[mephisto]

On the contrary, those chaps were infamously critical of one another.  So much so, in fact, that they made sure their music could stand up to the scrutiny of their compatriots.  Music that cannot pass the "could it have been composed by an hack" test, doesn't stand to last very long.

Perhaps exposure to the critique of a Rachmaninoff or a Casals would have done Neon Leon some good.

When listening to rubbish like the music of Sorabji, I'm always reminded of the words of Antoine de Saint Exupery:

"You know you've achieved perfection in design, Not when you have nothing more to add, But when you have nothing more to take away.  "

You are my hero! Your're so smart

[Etude]

What about the fugues?  Nearly every line in Sorabji's fugues is some kind of subject or countersubject, and Sorabji still retains full control over the music rather than letting the subjects run automatically.  A "hack" simply could not do that.

[ctrastevere]

Everything I've heard of Leon Dudley seems to point toward the fact that he is nothing more than a third rate composing hack whose memory is kept afloat by a bunch of "technical complexity" fetishists.  Dudley Do-Right makes up in head-exploding pomposity and elaboration what he lacks in actual substance.

Wow, you're right. All the time I've spent deluding myself, thinking that Sorabji was actually a good composer... it's horrendous! I'm glad you've shown me the light, because man, I don't know where I'd be without your help. What an idiot I was to think that the harmonies Sorabji creates in Le Jardin Parfume, Gullistan, and Djami were beautiful and original! How could I have ever thought that Sorabji's thematic development in Opus Clavicembalisticum was clever, dare-I-say brilliant? What sort of musical ignoramus must I have been to be moved by Sonata No. 1, the first quintet, and the solo concerto?

I guess this music thing just isn't for me...

[Etude]

...composing hack whose memory is kept afloat by a bunch of "technical complexity" fetishists... 

Yeah, I'm getting off on the technical complexity of this passage.

[thalbergmad]

Sorabji is an idiot.

I am sorry, but this is completely wrong.

It should be "was" an idiot.

You have incurred the wrath of the Sorabjians who will now shoot you down with long words.

Thal

[ahinton]

On the contrary, those chaps were infamously critical of one another.  So much so, in fact, that they made sure their music could stand up to the scrutiny of their compatriots.  Music that cannot pass the "could it have been composed by an hack" test, doesn't stand to last very long.

Er - excuse me - "those chaps" (that's Rakhmaninov, Sorabji and you, as far as I can tell) "were infamously critical of one another"? What nonsense! You weren't around at the time. I do not know what Rakhmaninov may have thought of Sorabji's work. I do know what Sorabji thought of Rakhmaninov's, since he was one of the Russain composer's most dedicated champions over many decades.

Perhaps exposure to the critique of a Rachmaninoff or a Casals would have done Neon Leon some good.

I have less than no idea what you may or may not mean by this, but exposure to a critique by Sorabji might well have been most encouraging for both Rakhmaninov and Casals.

When listening to rubbish like the music of Sorabji, I'm always reminded of the words of Antoine de Saint Exupery:
"You know you've achieved perfection in design, Not when you have nothing more to add, But when you have nothing more to take away.  "

Leaving aside the obvious fact that you have less than no idea what Sorabji was about (otherwise you'd not have made so gross a fool of yourself by trying to refer to him in the context of Rakhmaninov and Casals as you did), the French author whom you quote was Antoine de Saint-Éxupery and, whilst you citation is indeed interesting, your use of it here shows that you know even less about Sorabji's music than I'd thought you did...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Do I have to have held public office to be able to criticize the President?

Does anyone actually care? You can say what you like, of course - and we'll all listen here - but because we will do that, you must be prepared to expect some of the kinds of reaction that you get. In any case, I think that those who criticise the President (by which I presume you to mean that of the United States of America) include many so many who have never and will never hold public office; that said, criticism, like the President himself, has to be held up to scrutiny and yours, insofar as it can even be dignified with the term (which, as far as I can tell, is far from being the case) speaks, as I have already said, for itself (for all its tiresome lack of eloquence).

Bad logic!

Worse "criticism"...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I am sorry, but this is completely wrong.

It should be "was" an idiot.

You have incurred the wrath of the Sorabjians who will now shoot you down with long words.

For heaven's sakes, Thal, why do you suppose that I (or anyone else, for that matter) could be bothered to point out to the egregious Mr Dvorsky that Sorabji happens to have been dead for almost twenty years? - and if you personally think that he was an "idiot", why are you interested (as you have in your own words admitted to being) in Jonathan Powell's hopefully soon forthcoming recording of OC?

No especially long words there, methinks - and if long words bother you that much, perhaps you should think of abbreviating your "Thalbergmad" appellation permanently as "Thal"...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

why are you interested (as you have in your own words admitted to being) in Jonathan Powell's hopefully soon forthcoming recording of OC?

I am more curious than interested to be honest and i was actually taking the piss. The anticiption of this recording (which has been going on for some years in various forums) would indicate it will be some kind of Earth shattering event. Whereas, in reality it will be a very fine pianist playing an extremely long work by an obscure composer that is unlike to trouble the top 1,000 of the classical charts.

Saying that, I really do hope he records the bloody thing to satisfy those who desire it. The 2 existing recordings left me unmoved, but from what i understand from the myriads of posts about the subject, neither were satisfactory.

If the resulting CD is reasonably priced, I will buy it. If it turns up on Gamingforce (30 seconds after its release), I might even delete some Spice Girls songs to clear some space.

Thal

[retrouvailles]

If the resulting CD is reasonably priced, I will buy it. If it turns up on Gamingforce (30 seconds after its release), I might even delete some Spice Girls songs to clear some space.

If it turns up on Gamingforce soon after it's release, I'll delete the post (I'm a mod there). You know, Jonathan Powell is a member there and I would hate to cause tension. I will be buying my copy, that is for sure, and I encourage you too, even though you don't seem convinced of Sorabji's compositional talent and seem sorta brainwashed by the myriad of hateful and misguided posts about Sorabji and his music.

[ahinton]

I am more curious than interested to be honest

Then why didn't you either declare your curiosity at the time (as distinct from genuine interest); how "honest" is that?

and i was actually taking the piss.

Out of whom or what? Regardless of the answer to that, I'd put it back again if I were you...

The anticiption of this recording (which has been going on for some years in various forums)

Is that some kind of antiseptic? - and, if so, what it its apparent purpose?...

would indicate it will be some kind of Earth shattering event. Whereas, in reality it will be a very fine pianist playing an extremely long work by an obscure composer that is unlike to trouble the top 1,000 of the classical charts.

Whether the earth will or will not move for you is up to you. It will indeed be a very fine pianist playing a long work, but the obscurity of its composer will already have been laid pretty much to rest by the said pianist and, whilst this recording may not feature in "the top 1,000 of the classical charts", we will all be able to be thankful that it's not someone else's 32 sonatas, WTC, Chopin Études or, far worse still, some effusion by Mr Karl Jankins or someone else of his ilk.

Saying that, I really do hope he records the bloody thing to satisfy those who desire it. The 2 existing recordings left me unmoved, but from what i understand from the myriads of posts about the subject, neither were satisfactory

Well, that's as maybe; just wait for Jonathan Powell's recording like the rest of us and make of it what you will when it emerges, again like the rest of us.

If the resulting CD is reasonably priced, I will buy it.

And "reasonable" is what?

If it turns up on Gamingforce (30 seconds after its release), I might even delete some Spice Girls songs to clear some space.

It won't, so I'd not bother to worry about your Beckham files if I were you...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

And "reasonable" is what?

£30

[ahinton]

If it turns up on Gamingforce soon after it's release, I'll delete the post (I'm a mod there). You know, Jonathan Powell is a member there and I would hate to cause tension. I will be buying my copy, that is for sure, and I encourage you too, even though you don't seem convinced of Sorabji's compositional talent and seem sorta brainwashed by the myriad of hateful and misguided posts about Sorabji and his music.

Thank you for your sanguine comments. People like you do those who expend immense amounts of time, energy and money bringing music to people that they would not otherwise get the kind of favour that they need in order that they may continue to do so.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

£30

Then forget it. The second reissue of the Ogdon recording is offered at a 5-CD box (with a 100-page book) for the price of 4 CDs, so if you really expect to get Jonathan's for half of that, I suggest that you help finance it.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

If it turns up on Gamingforce soon after it's release, I'll delete the post (I'm a mod there).

Originally Posted by John Carey
Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji: Rosario d'arabeschi; Gulistan, Jonathan Powell (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...e=UTF8&s=music

i have this. i will upload it when i get back from vacation in texas. my connerction here is unbearably slow.


Are you going to remove your own posts?

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Thank you for your sanguine comments. People like you do those who expend immense amounts of time, energy and money bringing music to people that they would not otherwise get the kind of favour that they need in order that they may continue to do so.

Indeed, we must protect Powell and Sorabji at all costs and just pirate evey other buggers music.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Then forget it. The second reissue of the Ogdon recording is offered at a 5-CD box (with a 100-page book) for the price of 4 CDs, so if you really expect to get Jonathan's for half of that, I suggest that you help finance it.

I have already offered to turn the pages, what more do you want.

I just got 20 George Formby DVD's for a fiver. Over £30 for 4 cd's is absurd.

Thal

[ahinton]

Originally Posted by John Carey
Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji: Rosario d'arabeschi; Gulistan, Jonathan Powell (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...e=UTF8&s=music

That URL doesn't work.

i have this.

You have what? - the original recording on Altarus?

i will upload it when i get back from vacation in texas.

I doubt both (that is to say your future uploading of it to an unspecified place and your vacationing in Texas just as I doubted your earlier alleged vacation in the Collegeville area of Pennsylvania in the same country a little while ago).

my connerction here is unbearably slow.

I cannot comment on your "connerctive" abilities

Are you going to remove your own posts?

If that is addressed to me (which, of course, it may not be), I must answer not only in the negative but by asking you why you might assume that I would do so.

Best,

Alistair

[retrouvailles]

Originally Posted by John Carey
Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji: Rosario d'arabeschi; Gulistan, Jonathan Powell (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...e=UTF8&s=music

i have this. i will upload it when i get back from vacation in texas. my connerction here is unbearably slow.


Are you going to remove your own posts?

Thal

I actually might. I have also considering deleting that whole Sorabji requests thread, or all the commercially released recordings in it, at least. Some things, like the broadcasts and the live recordings Powell himself posted, can stay. I only feel like this about pirating Sorabji's music on GFF because 1. Powell is a member there, 2. Sorabji's music is in much greater need of recordings than many other things pirated there.

[ahinton]

Indeed, we must protect Powell and Sorabji at all costs and just pirate evey other buggers music.

It doesn't actually "cost" anything, I do not advocate the pirating of anyone else's work either (so no special case for Powell and Sorabji there) and there should be an apostrophe between the "r" and the "s" in "buggers".

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Hinty, that was a copy of a post made by retro in Gamingforce.

I used it to illustrate, that depsite his comments about using his mod powers to remove any Powell recordings, in the past he has indeed posted some himself.

Thal

[ahinton]

I have already offered to turn the pages, what more do you want.

I don't "want" anything from you, Thal. If you are capable of turning the pages as brilliantly as the page-turner did for the Ogdon recording and you are willing to offer your services to do just that, we'll all be immensely grateful and maybe you'll get a free set of CDs for your pains.

I just got 20 George Formby DVD's for a fiver.

...which no one has just recorded at the kind of enormous expense that will be involved in another recording of OC.

Over £30 for 4 cd's is absurd.

I suspect that you'd take a diffeent view on that had you invested the money in making the recording in the first place - and I can now see that the apostrophe missing from an earlier post of yours has now turned up here between "cd" and "s" just where it is not needed (and the convention is to capitalise "CD" in any case).

Best,

Alistair

[retrouvailles]

Let's not get off topic. The topic of this thread is not "Piracy and Sorabji", but rather "Sorabji plays his own music!".

And Thal, you missed a very important clause in my last post, which is if it is posted soon after it's release, I will delete the post. That would definitely hurt sales, whereas if two years have passed since it's release, or more, it won't do much damage, if any, to potential sales.

[thalbergmad]

I actually might. I have also considering deleting that whole Sorabji requests thread, or all the commercially released recordings in it, at least. Some things, like the broadcasts and the live recordings Powell himself posted, can stay.

Only considering?

Only the Powell commercially released recordings?

Are there any other artists that are going to receive your protection?

Thal

[ahinton]

Hinty, that was a copy of a post made by retro in Gamingforce.

I used it to illustrate, that depsite his comments about using his mod powers to remove any Powell recordings, in the past he has indeed posted some himself.

So what? If they get removed now, that's fine. Thousands of pounds go into making recordings like that and, if enough people just think that they have a right to them for free, then eventually few if any of those recordings will get made in the first place (and I'm certainly not just talking about Sorabji here). I do hope that no one goes around to your place and nicks the bicycle for which you paid with your own hard-earned money.

Best,

Alistair

[retrouvailles]

Thal, why do you gotta start a fight? You know, for being a buddy of mine, you're being awfully hostile in this thread. If my actions seem irrational, well that's not my fault. As far as I know, there are no other artists that are members on GFF whose recordings are being passed around without their permission, so I won't "protect" any others. GFF is a place where you can share music for free, and always will be for its existence. It is because Powell is a member there that I have decided to consider protecting his music.

And:

Let's not get off topic. The topic of this thread is not "Piracy and Sorabji", but rather "Sorabji plays his own music!".

[thalbergmad]

And Thal, you missed a very important clause in my last post, which is if it is posted soon after it's release, I will delete the post. That would definitely hurt sales, whereas if two years have passed since it's release, or more, it won't do much damage, if any, to potential sales.

Hmm, I wonder how many other "soon after release" recordings have missed the moderators sword.

Thal

[ahinton]

Let's not get off topic. The topic of this thread is not "Piracy and Sorabji", but rather "Sorabji plays his own music!".

Indeed.

And Thal, you missed a very important clause in my last post, which is if it is posted soon after it's release, I will delete the post. That would definitely hurt sales, whereas if two years have passed since it's release, or more, it won't do much damage, if any, to potential sales.

With respect, it could possibly do so if the original remains available on sale, as almost all Altarus recordings still are, many years after their release - take, for example (since we're talking Sorabji here), Yonty Solomon's of Le Jardin Parfumé, Marc-André Hamelin's of Sonata No. 1 and the late Charles Hopkins's of Gulistan, which have all been around for 15 or more years and are still available.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

just thnk they have a right

Since you seem to be in "correction" mode, I am sure they do not thnk at all.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Thal, why do you gotta start a fight? You know, for being a buddy of mine, you're being awfully hostile in this thread.

Sorry, i did not mean to be hostile, but i find it absurd that one artist is protected and others are not.

Being a member of a forum should not offer any higher level of protection against piracy.

Thal

[ahinton]

Since you seem to be in "correction" mode, I am sure they do not thnk at all.

No, that's just the point - I don't suppose that they do, with or without the "i" (and, while we're about it, I perpetrated a couple of other inadvertent errors in the post in question which you appear not to have noticed and which I have now corrected).

Best,

Alistair

[Etude]

I like how the Sorabji-haters try to mock the composer by saying that his last name was originally 'Dudley' when the source of that information is inaccurate.  It just goes further to prove their lack of understanding, like people who say all his music sucks after hearing 5 minutes of Madge's OC.

Is it even possible anymore to have a Sorabji thread without it descending into a copyright debate?

[ahinton]

i find it absurd that one artist is protected and others are not.

Being a member of a forum should not offer any higher level of protection against piracy.

I agree entirely, but then I'm by no means convinced that this was all that "retrouvailles" meant.

Best,

Alistair

[retrouvailles]

Let's really not get further into the topic of piracy. It is a very touchy subject, and whether we like the effects of it or not, many of us in this thread are guilty of it and very well know it. Let us return to singing the praises (or otherwise!) of Sorabji playing Sorabji. I wouldn't want to have all us turn against each other just because of this.

[thalbergmad]

No, that's just the point - I don't suppose that they do, with or without the "i" (and, while we're about it, I perpetrated a couple of other inadvertent errors in the post in question which you appear not to have noticed and which I have now corrected).

I have told you before, I don't read all of your posts and unless you are in "pedantic" mode, I would not waste my time looking for grammmatikkal cock ups and spellin misstakez.

Thal

[michel dvorsky]

Er - excuse me - "those chaps" (that's Rakhmaninov, Sorabji and you, as far as I can tell) "were infamously critical of one another"? What nonsense! You weren't around at the time. I do not know what Rakhmaninov may have thought of Sorabji's work. I do know what Sorabji thought of Rakhmaninov's, since he was one of the Russain composer's most dedicated champions over many decades.

Good for him. I'm a fan of Keeley Hazell. Doesn't mean she digs me.

Leaving aside the obvious fact that you have less than no idea what Sorabji was about (otherwise you'd not have made so gross a fool of yourself by trying to refer to him in the context of Rakhmaninov and Casals as you did), the French author whom you quote was Antoine de Saint-Éxupery and, whilst you citation is indeed interesting, your use of it here shows that you know even less about Sorabji's music than I'd thought you did...

Compositionally, it seems like Duddles just bobbles around a lot.   The music seems unfocused, boring, and bad -  a bit like your posts.

[Etude]

I could explain the general structural plan Sorabji uses for many of his fugues including the ones up to and as well as  OC, if that would make his music seem any more "focused" to you.  Because once I saw this structure the fugues started to make a lot more sense to me and I could understand the "dramatic" quality often mentioned about them.  Why do you keep referring to him by some derivation of his former middle name?

[michel dvorsky]

I could explain the general structural plan in the Goldberg Variations...or the Liszt B minor Sonata...or Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy...or Alkan Festin D'Esope...or Mendelssohn Variations Serieuses...or Ravel Gaspard...or Debussy Pour le Piano...or the Berg Sonata...or Scriabin Sonata no. 5...

But I don't have to, because you can hear it in the music.

Why do I keep referring to Mean, Lean, Green, Neon, Leon as Leon Dudley?

Because I like to, that's why.

[Etude]

So a piece has  to instantly yield all its interest on first listen? I'm still discovering things in Opus Clavicembalisticum, and I've known the piece since the start of 2005.

[michel dvorsky]

Oh wow. It must be great then.

Or maybe you're just wasting your time listening to a bunch of crap.

[Etude]

Or maybe Sorabji isn't personally FOR YOU.  Ever consider that?  Now just *** off you opinionated sh*t.

[michel dvorsky]

https://www.opusclavicembalisticum.blogspot.com/

omg...and so pianistic above all!

[michel dvorsky]

One of the reasons that I like Godowsky is that he wrote a lot of notes, but most of the notes he wrote served an actual harmonic/contrapuntal purpose.  Godowsky was also a decent pianist, I hear. 

[Etude]

Keep going, you're on a roll.

[ctrastevere]

Hah! This is hilarious!

The repertoire board has seen practically no activity for the last two days. Then I go out for the day and return to a barrage of posts... on my thread no less! I feel so honored. 

In any case, I don't see why Sorabji is such a controversial figure... I could understand the heated debates back when it seemed that practically every other topic on the repertoire forum was Sorabji/Opus Clavicembalisticum-related, but seriously, I didn't expect that even nowadays he would still cause such intense reactions in people.

For some reason, it seems like practically everything I like (be it Sorabji, Ayn Rand, Classical music, Heavy Metal, smoking, etc.) is something that polarizes people. I wonder if this is a fault in me or in others... perhaps it's not the things I feel passionately about themselves that people find offensive, but merely the way they're represented by others who like them. Ah well.

[pies]

y r u fegs responding to dvorsky he's a troll 

Ayn Rand

LOL

[Etude]

In any case, I don't see why Sorabji is such a controversial figure... I could understand the heated debates back when it seemed that practically every other topic on the repertoire forum was Sorabji/Opus Clavicembalisticum-related, but seriously, I didn't expect that even nowadays he would still cause such intense reactions in people.

Yeah, bitching about OC is so 2004, when everyone thought it was a load of random clusters.  Since when did a piece being "unpianistic" imply anything about its musicality anyway?  In any case I think it doesn't get much more "pianistic" than double note tremolos (unless Michel Dvorsky has a vibraphone or something).  "Or maybe you're just wasting your time listening to a bunch of crap."  If you can't listen to five minutes of Sorabji and expect to be familiar with his music it's not good enough, even though large Sorabji works can sometimes take months to years to become familiar with...

[ahinton]

I have told you before, I don't read all of your posts

A strange and perhaps less than credible admission, since you always reply to them!

Best,

Alistair