How to go about learning perfect pitch?

[Bob]

Grr... Lost my post.

Say it's possible.

How would you go about learning perfect pitch?

[jlh]

Grr... Lost my post.

Say it's possible.

How would you go about learning perfect pitch?

I had a friend who used to sleep with a metronome with an A440 tone turned on... somehow he believed that would cement that note in his head and then he could always figure out the other notes.  I don't know how successful he was...

[m19834]

I have recently been pondering related questions, as it seems that people with perfect pitch like to remark that distinguishing between notes has to do with remembering the specific character or quality of those notes.

What is the 'character' or quality of a note ?  And, how does one 'study' it ?

What makes an "E" on a piano sound the same as an "E" that is vocalized ?  These each have different timbres since they are being articulated by different instruments.  What makes these both "E's" ?  I suppose it is the vibrations involved, but is it really the same thing no matter what kind of body the vibration is passing through ?

Instruments also resonate differently, one from another.  So, would an instrument whose resonating characteristics carry less overtones and more fundamental -- like a recorder, for example -- still be sounding the same kind of pitch that an instrument which resonates with a full spectrum of overtones is sounding ?  Does the number of overtones heard in one sound determine the pitch, since the fundamental characteristics of a pitch are linked to overtones ?

One thing I find enjoyable is playing a tone on the piano and listening (until I find) as many overtones as I possibly can.  I spent a little while doing this and haven't recently, I would like to do this again soon.  Somehow this seems more interesting to me than trying to listen to a tone "flatly," trying to remember it in a single dimension.

[rachopin]

Take a look in this site: https://www.perfectpitch.com/

Everyone can open the ears and get perfect pitch and relative pitch 

[Bob]

Has one here, or closely related to here, actually done it?  From scratch?  Zero to perfect pitch?

I know a few people who learned tuning notes. 

I don't know anyone who has actually developed perfect pitch like you can relative pitch though. 



Except Mr. Burge of course.  

[Essyne]

What makes an "E" on a piano sound the same as an "E" that is vocalized ?  These each have different timbres since they are being articulated by different instruments.  What makes these both "E's" ?  I suppose it is the vibrations involved, but is it really the same thing no matter what kind of body the vibration is passing through ?

Along those same lines, can a singer truly develop "perfect pitch" and then PRODUCE the "perfect pitches"? Because to effectively sing, one must not listen to one's self . . . that'll constantly stop the air flow, and then a MUCH MORE IMPERFECT ( ) pitches will ensue.

[popdog]

One thing that may help would be to restrict your playing to digital pianos for awhile, since they are much more accurately in tune than acoustic pianos.  I have heard that this helps in developing perfect pitch.  Or at least use digital pianos when attempting to learn perfect pitch. 

Chang's book 'Fundamentals of Piano Practice' describes a method of learning perfect pitch based around memorising a certain note/piece.  According to Chang it could take a year or more.  Might be a worthwhile read Bob.  He doesn't really describe how to memorise a note though. 

I had a friend who used to sleep with a metronome with an A440 tone turned on... somehow he believed that would cement that note in his head and then he could always figure out the other notes.  I don't know how successful he was...

I reckon that would drive me crazy before I developed perfect pitch...

popdog.

[keypeg]

Essyne, nonetheless you must sing in tune, so how do you do it?  Do you aim toward the sound that you want to produce by imagining it but not listening to your voice?

[jlh]

Along those same lines, can a singer truly develop "perfect pitch" and then PRODUCE the "perfect pitches"? Because to effectively sing, one must not listen to one's self . . . that'll constantly stop the air flow, and then a MUCH MORE IMPERFECT ( ) pitches will ensue.

Well... according to this site, listening to one's own voice will help free up the voice and make singing easier.  Much like how singing in a "live" accoustic space like a cathedral makes singing easier.

https://www.bellacustica.com/

[keypeg]

That site is selling a product, which I might think could be a gimmick, whereas Essyne has been trained to be a vocalist, while I have also heard of the approach not to listen to one's own voice.  Specifically, it was someone training opera and professional singers, and especialy working with those who had developed  problems during their career.  He had them become aware of physical sensations but never the voice itself.  There was an opera singer who had died to a whisper, and under his program she became aware of sensations, oblivious to voice, but she filled the room with her sound, and then asked timidly "Could you hear me?"

HOnestly, "Anyone who has participated in an opera, a musical, a concert, or a major recital knows how taxing an hour or more of singing can be." .... so they are catering to people who have been taught improperly?  An your or more of singing should not be taxing.  The guy also says that every voice teacher makes his students record his voice.  Really?  Anyway, I hate exploitation of fears for the sake of profit and false promises if you spend money on devices.

[persona]

I had a friend who used to sleep with a metronome with an A440 tone turned on... somehow he believed that would cement that note in his head and then he could always figure out the other notes.  I don't know how successful he was...

I heard Steve Vai did that. I'm not sure if it's true though (not that he did it, nor that it works).

[Petter]

Take a look in this site: https://www.perfectpitch.com/

Everyone can open the ears and get perfect pitch and relative pitch 

A friend of mine endorsed that product with frantic devotion. There΄s probably alot of simular computer software that΄s cheaper though.

[Essyne]

singing in tune is just a product of correct breathing/placement . . . you should never listen to yourself, as it will hinder the breath flow . . . trust me, I know from personal experience (lol, i'm trying to undo what i have been doing for my entire life  ) that singing should be about sensations, not how you sound - you can "feel" the note, so to speak, based on the vibrations (well, that's the way that I think about it).

NOTE: I am in no way comparing myself to Beethoven 

[jlh]

That site is selling a product, which I might think could be a gimmick, whereas Essyne has been trained to be a vocalist, while I have also heard of the approach not to listen to one's own voice.  Specifically, it was someone training opera and professional singers, and especialy working with those who had developed  problems during their career.  He had them become aware of physical sensations but never the voice itself.  There was an opera singer who had died to a whisper, and under his program she became aware of sensations, oblivious to voice, but she filled the room with her sound, and then asked timidly "Could you hear me?"

HOnestly, "Anyone who has participated in an opera, a musical, a concert, or a major recital knows how taxing an hour or more of singing can be." .... so they are catering to people who have been taught improperly?  An your or more of singing should not be taxing.  The guy also says that every voice teacher makes his students record his voice.  Really?  Anyway, I hate exploitation of fears for the sake of profit and false promises if you spend money on devices.

I'm not endorsing his product, but he really is a professional opera singer like he says.  I was at one of his lectures a couple weeks ago and didn't get the impression he was exploiting fears, but rather trying to solve a problem facing many singers.  I don't know if this product is worth the hype, but you shouldn't dismiss all of what he says based on the fact that there is a product being sold.  Personally, I find that cupping my hand over my ear suffices.

Tell me... are YOU a professional singer who knows how to sing for more than an hour non stop without getting fatigued a little?  Well I am, and I can tell you that an hour of doing anything on stage can be taxing even to the best trained.  Besides that, student singers are at more risk for oversinging because they lack experience [and usually] technique that can handle it. 

About recording voice lessons... yes, many voice teachers DO record their lessons and give the student a CD or tape to take home and listen to -- something piano teachers seldomly do.

[jlh]

singing in tune is just a product of correct breathing/placement . . . you should never listen to yourself, as it will hinder the breath flow . . . trust me, I know from personal experience (lol, i'm trying to undo what i have been doing for my entire life  ) that singing should be about sensations, not how you sound - you can "feel" the note, so to speak, based on the vibrations (well, that's the way that I think about it).

NOTE: I am in no way comparing myself to Beethoven 

It should be added that some people SHOULD listen to their voice because their placement is inaccurate.  I hate listening to singers who have NO IDEA they are not singing in tune, or worse yet hide that fact by creating an unnaturally wide vibrato that masks all traces of pitch.

[jlh]

I heard Steve Vai did that. I'm not sure if it's true though (not that he did it, nor that it works).

Interesting... I didn't know that.

[Essyne]

Tell me... are YOU a professional singer who knows how to sing for more than an hour non stop without getting fatigued a little?  Well I am, and I can tell you that an hour of doing anything on stage can be taxing even to the best trained.  Besides that, student singers are at more risk for oversinging because they lack experience [and usually] training. 

Completely agreed - what I said was just my opinion, and really, what is "right" for one can be completely "wrong" for another in the music industry, as is demonstrated even here on ps.

My lessons only last for about 45 minutes MAX because I AM a young singer, and even correct training is taxing, as you said.

What do you sing? Classical?

~Ess~

[Essyne]

It should be added that some people SHOULD listen to their voice because their placement is inaccurate.  I hate listening to singers who have NO IDEA they are not singing in tune, or worse yet hide that fact by creating an unnaturally wide vibrato that masks all traces of pitch.

A wide vibrato is a symptom of incorrect placement, which is a lot of the times caused by listening to yourself (it was w/ me)- if you're listening, once again, you are not actively engaging the breath . . . but I already stated that, and, as we "agree to disagree here" so to speak, I won't get into that  .

[jlh]

A wide vibrato is a symptom of incorrect placement, which is a lot of the times caused by listening to yourself (it was w/ me)- if you're listening, once again, you are not actively engaging the breath . . . but I already stated that, and, as we "agree to disagree here" so to speak, I won't get into that  .

I'm glad you found a way to fix that.  My position is that it might not be the case for everyone, and therefore I don't think all singers should never listen to themselves (I'm aware of the double negative lol).  Of course you're right -- it's probably good just to agree to disagree. 

[Essyne]

What do you sing? Classical?

~Ess~

probably asking the obvious question, but hey - what else is new? 

[jlh]

probably asking the obvious question, but hey - what else is new? 

Sorry I missed your question!

I sing a variety of styles, actually.  I used to sing bass in student acappella groups (even was music director for one) and vocal jazz ensembles.  I sing in a professional choir and an album I sang on with them just won a GRAMMY this year.  I'm also a staff singer at a church and sing many styles for that job, and just a couple weeks ago I sang some arias and chorus parts for the Bach Johannes-Passion with principle members of a major professional US orchestra and members of a professional choir. 

I should be getting the recordings from the Bach Passion very soon... perhaps I'll put a clip up somewhere?

[Essyne]

Congrats on your accomplishments!

Okay, I know that I wasn't going to say anything more, but when I was at the barn I was thinking about this, and I realized that I didn't even say the most substantial part of my argument ((but I promise you that I'm not trying to argue! . . . it's just a little "after the fact"  )) :

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when singing, your head cavaties make it impossible to hear the pitch that you are actually PRODUCING; thus, what you are hearing and what the audience is hearing is completely different. That's why you should strictly rely on feelings.

Okay . . . i'm finished now, but @ least my former posts make more sense than just "this is what ive been told" . . .

[jlh]

Congrats on your accomplishments!

Okay, I know that I wasn't going to say anything more, but when I was at the barn I was thinking about this, and I realized that I didn't even say the most substantial part of my argument ((but I promise you that I'm not trying to argue! . . . it's just a little "after the fact"  )) :

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when singing, your head cavaties make it impossible to hear the pitch that you are actually PRODUCING; thus, what you are hearing and what the audience is hearing is completely different. That's why you should strictly rely on feelings.

Okay . . . i'm finished now, but @ least my former posts make more sense than just "this is what ive been told" . . .

Well then that's a very good reason to experiment with recording yourself singing a pitch and then listen to how it sounds on playback! 

One good thing you can do is to cup your hand over one of your ears, listen to how it sounds, compare the sound to a recording of yourself, and then try the other ear.  By finding out which ear is your dominant ear you can listen to yourself more from that ear and be more consistently on pitch.  For most people it is the right ear that is dominant for listening to oneself.

Relying strictly on feelings can have it's downfalls as well.  Consider if a young singer becomes used to producing a certain pitch only be feel... then his/her voice changes and it no longer feels the same.  I would hesitate using the term "strictly" in this case.  Perhaps I'm wrong, I dunno, but that's what I'm thinking.

[anna_crusis]

I've been training myself for the last few days, and can now identify sixty notes on the keyboard within about 3-5 seconds (I didn't bother with the very top and bottom octaves).

The trick is to switch off the transposer in your brain. Normally you instictively hunt for a tonal centre every time you hear a melody. It's easy to remember a tune in your head, until you hear another one in a different key and try to modify the former to fit in with the latter. When you think about it though, there's no real reason you should try to identify tonal centres or keys because they don't in fact exist. Nature just consists of sounds of random frequencies, some of which we've labelled with names and imposed a structure on. But the structure doesn't inherently exist any more than The Big Dipper constellation exists - the stars exist all right, but the picture only resides in our imaginations.

There's plenty of instances where you remember pitch accurately because the sounds aren't in a musical context. The way your mother says your name, or the way a colleague always says the same phrase ('at the end of the day...'). You've got a perfect memory of it that doesn't change.

So all you've really got to do is learn to hear, say, 'Ode To Joy' in your head in C major while listening to something else in a dissonant key like B major. It's really hard at first, but once you get the knack the two can co-exist perfectly well. Then your sense of pitch is fixed, and you can start memorising notes.

I still can't instantly identify all the notes in a phrase, but during a trip to the shop earlier tonight I was thrilled by the sudden awareness of all these notes around me: the sound of a bus engine in G, the beeps of the supermarket register alternately F and C#, the pitch of a chirping cricket. A week ago I couldn't even have picked a D out on the piano.

Just think atonal. Keys don't exist!

[Bob]

Interesting.  What did you do?  Learn a different melody in each key?

[anna_crusis]

Interesting.  What did you do?  Learn a different melody in each key?

No, only individual notes in octave clusters. You play, say, B in four octaves (simultaneously), get a good mental playback of it and then try to keep the note in your head while doing anything and everything possible to interfere with it. That entails playing unhelpful chords (say, Bb or Eb) or progressions of random chords (preferably played by someone else) and constantly trying to retain the note in spite of all your instincts to change it. You can also improvise in random keys, or listen to the radio for a while. Then *let go* and let the memory of the clustered B return to you.

The trick, as I said, is NOT to look for meaning or any sort of association. Any attempt to guage intervals, see colours or memorise melodies will have the complete opposite effect of the one you want. You want the note to be absolute: a pure aural memory that has nothing to do with anything else.

If all goes well, after a few days you should occasionally begin to hear notes 'chime' in your head when they occur in the real world. It's a peculiar feeling, more like deja vu than any conscious process.

[anna_crusis]

No, only individual notes in octave clusters. You play, say, B in four octaves (simultaneously), get a good mental playback of it and then try to keep the note in your head while doing anything and everything possible to interfere with it. That entails playing unhelpful chords (say, Bb or Eb) or progressions of random chords (preferably played by someone else) and constantly trying to retain the note in spite of all your instincts to change it. You can also improvise in random keys, or listen to the radio for a while. Then *let go* and let the memory of the clustered B return to you.

The trick, as I said, is NOT to look for meaning or any sort of association. Any attempt to guage intervals, see colours or memorise melodies will have the complete opposite effect of the one you want. You want the note to be absolute: a pure aural memory that has nothing to do with anything else.

If all goes well, after a few days you should occasionally begin to hear notes 'chime' in your head when they occur in the real world. It's a peculiar feeling, more like deja vu than any conscious process. Try it, you'll surprise yourself!

[thierry13]

No, only individual notes in octave clusters. You play, say, B in four octaves (simultaneously), get a good mental playback of it and then try to keep the note in your head while doing anything and everything possible to interfere with it. That entails playing unhelpful chords (say, Bb or Eb) or progressions of random chords (preferably played by someone else) and constantly trying to retain the note in spite of all your instincts to change it. You can also improvise in random keys, or listen to the radio for a while. Then *let go* and let the memory of the clustered B return to you.

The trick, as I said, is NOT to look for meaning or any sort of association. Any attempt to guage intervals, see colours or memorise melodies will have the complete opposite effect of the one you want. You want the note to be absolute: a pure aural memory that has nothing to do with anything else.

If all goes well, after a few days you should occasionally begin to hear notes 'chime' in your head when they occur in the real world. It's a peculiar feeling, more like deja vu than any conscious process.

Playing four Bs is not a cluster. A cluster would be, by example, B to next octave B including all tones in-between those two Bs.

[Bob]

I thought she meant she played B's in octaves and then did a cluster to mess up any sense of tonal.  But she could still hear the B's that way.

[anna_crusis]

Playing four Bs is not a cluster. A cluster would be, by example, B to next octave B including all tones in-between those two Bs.

I meant a cluster of Bs, not 'cluster' in the usual sense. Just bad wording.