Worthwhile trade offs?

[Bob]

If you're lazy, you get immediate reward, but lessen the future rewards.

If you work hard, you get the chance (not a guarantee, but a chance) at a future reward, but lessen the rewards and enjoyment possible right now.

Interesting, no? 

I don't think either one is that much better than the other really.

[Essyne]

. . . . unless you like working . . . .

This is bizarre - I had the exact same conversation w/ a friend of mine today. The kid needs to get out and have some FUN! But he's living so much in the future that he forgets to live in the present.

I'd have to argue w/ you about being lazy and "get[ting] immediate reward" - Only in America w/ affirmative action, my friend.

~Ess~

[Bob]

Although, at some some point, if you're pushing yourself to do more, it becomes work.  Painful.  Beyond what you want to do.

[danny elfboy]

There's no such thing as the future. It literally doesn't exist.
It's just a time illusion with nothing concrete.
The past is over and the present is the only thing we can fully live.
As far as you we know we could be dead tomorrow and we should be able to say that we have enjoyed life till the end. Putting things into stand by in the name of the future is stupid. Eventually the future will become present and you'll then put more thing in stand by for the future-future and eventually even the future-future will become a present and you'll realize you've missed all your life, you've done nothing except living in illusion and projecting and feel like you've become 40 years old in few days.

[keypeg]

... and feel like you've become 40 years old in few days.

Then I would be 14 years younger than I am now!   

One must also decide what one wants to do in life, and take the steps to make it happen.  If you live only in the present that won't happen.  I am learning musical things, practicing, so that in the future I will have skills that I don't have now. But in the meantime I am fully involved in what I am doing at this present time.

[danny elfboy]

Then I would be 14 years younger than I am now!   

One must also decide what one wants to do in life, and take the steps to make it happen.  If you live only in the present that won't happen.  I am learning musical things, practicing, so that in the future I will have skills that I don't have now. But in the meantime I am fully involved in what I am doing at this present time.

But you don't go through your piano practicing in auto-mode waiting for the magic moment in which you're a pianist to arrive. You enjoy the experience, enjoy the learning, enjoy the challenge, enjoy the present and what kind of musician you're in the present. Living in the future doesn't mean just thinking about the future but ignoring present in function of what the future will be, it's keep repeating to yourself and others "one day" or "I will finally do this when I will ... "

This way many people create a lot of excuses not to live claiming to themselves that they need to be thinner, more intelligent, richer, more-confident, acne-free, perfect musician, married, engaged, famous and so on before they can live their life fully and right on schedule that famous moment in which you start living your life NEVER EVER COMES.
You never become famous enough, thin enough, intelligent enough, educated enough, rich enough, perfect enough or confident enough and in the meanwhile life goes on and on while everything is projected towards an hypothetical future that doesn't exist.

The future in which you can play Rach concertors is just a side-effect of your effort but you play the piano in the now, you enjoy it in the now and you do it for the person you are right now. The best recipe for unbereable painful haunting regret is putting your life in stand by in function of what you need to do for "your" future or worse yet letting others (expecially parents) convincing you to do it.

Life can't be lived like some kind small collection of goals or like a race with a target.
Not only because once a goal is reached there's a new one and hence a new way not to live and enjoy life in the now but also because what is really worthwile, precious and worth-living is in between the goals and the everyday life not in those three minutes of glory that pass quickly and never come back.

[keypeg]

I hear what you are saying, Danny Elfboy. Actually I did the "right things" in my youth - did not pursue the arts and did practical stuff.  It has always been a bad fit.

That is to say that one must also have a foot in the "real world".  We need to be able to clothe, feed, and house ourselves so the mandatory education and maybe even the non-artistic job may need to be pursued.  But your own internal goals should never be forgotten and neglected.

What you don't do is to "live in the present" in a manner which means that you hope things will happen.  Planning and preparations need to happen.  You must procure that instrument in order to learn to play it.  You need that teacher, and know which one, and you need to study and practice what you need to study and practice and also know what these are. That means looking toward the future, preparing, then doing, in that order.  Otherwise you are turing in circles and that is not the same thing as living in the here and now (effectively).

[danny elfboy]

What you don't do is to "live in the present" in a manner which means that you hope things will happen.

Of course. But there's a big difference between planning in the present or living in the future.  If tomorrow I must go to the cinema to watch a beautiful movie I have waited for long and need to plan the schedule, the tickets, the friends that will come with me ... it is okay and necessary. The point is that that movie must NOT become my only reason to live and I don't have to put every emotion and enjoyment in stand by till the great day arrives. Looking forwards is not good if it prevents you from looking all the great things that are around you and that you must enjoy and treasure now because this exact moment will never come back and every missed opportunity in the now (because of looking forward of some magical moment that will soon fade) is lost forever!

[keypeg]

I thnk that we are in total agreement.

Also you remind me of a story I have forgotten.  Some famous person was asked about life goals and he said he had none.  If your purpose in life is to reach one goal, how sad it is when you reach it.  But the journey itself is the pleasure.

[danny elfboy]

But the journey itself is the pleasure.

Couldn't have said it better!

[Bob]

How do you make the journey more fun?

[keypeg]

Fun is an overrated word. What give me the most pleasure is often the most frustrating and can cause anger and tears, depending.

Have you watched a little kid learning to walk, talk, hold something, get a spoon in his mouth?  There a role model.

Do not seek the pleasure.  Seek the activity and be involved in the activity.  the pleasure will sneak up on you.  If you seek the pleasure you lose it.

[danny elfboy]

Do not seek the pleasure.  Seek the activity and be involved in the activity.  the pleasure will sneak up on you.  If you seek the pleasure you lose it.

For example when I exercise I get exhausted and puff and pant and sweat but I couldn't feel better and more fulfilled. I remember as a young kid when I was even more active I would scratch my knee all the times and I was always covered in blood literally but the involvement in my tree climbing, hills running and wrestling was so total, immense and beautiful and it was fun. I was reading an article that said that it is absolutely unnatural for human to feel that working is not fun.

If we lived in small communities each of us at whatever age would have certain task to do and not because someone say so but because they're objectively to be done. Things to build, things to fix, things to gather, things to wash, things to cook, things to bring around in a total cooperative and socially full environment. When my bedroom is dirty and a mess and I clean it I don't focus on the effort of cleansing but on the pleasure of seeing the transformantion from a stinky and messy room to a clean and tidy room. We love DOING and it's in the nature of humans to love DOING. Those kids that are called lazy might not be interested in some boring, useless and badly explained story lessons but they're surely out there doing something: exploring woods, practicing with their skateboard, reading comics (and probably learning way more useful things than they learn at school) And if you take a person and allows this person to just sit on a sofa for days and days without doing nothing, within the third day this person will beg you to get him/her involved in something.

The problem is that all the DOING of this world has become WORK/JOB.
And not only it has become impersonal, uncreative, alienating and unfullfilling but it has also become the strongest injustice of the higher capitalist classes and instead of having equal daily tasks we have those controlling and exploiting the poor people who must do reptitive, dull task for hours and hours accepting to earn an irrelevant amount of money compared to the effort. The poor worker almost never sees the result of his/her work (which is where most of the pleasure come from) instead he/she becomes a meaningless and changeable gear of the whole mechanism of production and most of the time has no idea where his/her effort is directed and what the end result is.

I agree that we should have young children as role models.
But very young children because above 6 they start to become the alienating zombies this society loves. As an article said:


"He saw children of five or six with bright eyes, smiling faces, beautiful posture and ease of movement; they were nearly always talkative, eager to please, willing to learn and enthusiastic about life. By the time these children left the school at sixteen they hardly looked anyone in the eye, their posture was very slumped with rounded shoulders, they were often lazy and uncaring about the people around them and they generally looked unhappy. 'What,' he was asking, 'in the name of education are we doing to our children to make them change so dramatically?' In my view the answer is simple: we, as a society, remove children's freedom of choice. We do this physically by making them sit for long hours, mentally by putting them under unnecessary stress at examination time, and emotionally by making them feel inferior or stupid when they do not conform to the status quo."