How to produce pianissimo sound effectively...

[cardinals]

I often had difficulty in playing notes in piano or even softer...They tended not to come out, or when I tried to play it a bit louder to prevent this it became too loud to make it even more awkward (especially in the ending cadences)...

Many guys pointed out that's mainly from the problem with relaxation...but if the arm is totally relaxed with gravity the fingers will hit the keys so hard that I wonder if there has to be any minimum force applied upward to reduce the gravity for the fingers to play the keys more slowly and gently...

(In other words, how to play pianissimo with still relaxed shoulder, arms and hands)

Someone told me to use the soft pedal but when I tried it, the tone was so different that it's hard to do the diminuendo gradually because of the sudden change in dynamics at the moment that pedal was used...

Any tips to figure this out? THX 

[cygnusdei]

I suspect that your piano is simply not as responsive as it should. What piano are you practicing on?

[cardinals]

I suspect that your piano is simply not as responsive as it should. What piano are you practicing on?

Mine is a Baldwin grand but I have experienced the same problem even when playing with Steinway or other makes...So I guess it's not the problem with the piano...

[ramseytheii]

I often had difficulty in playing notes in piano or even softer...They tended not to come out, or when I tried to play it a bit louder to prevent this it became too loud to make it even more awkward (especially in the ending cadences)...

Many guys pointed out that's mainly from the problem with relaxation...but if the arm is totally relaxed with gravity the fingers will hit the keys so hard that I wonder if there has to be any minimum force applied upward to reduce the gravity for the fingers to play the keys more slowly and gently...

(In other words, how to play pianissimo with still relaxed shoulder, arms and hands)

Someone told me to use the soft pedal but when I tried it, the tone was so different that it's hard to do the diminuendo gradually because of the sudden change in dynamics at the moment that pedal was used...

Any tips to figure this out? THX 

The answer is in your type of touch - instead of hitting the keys, stroke them as you would pet a cat.  Don't confuse "relaxation" with passivity.  It just means that muscles function the way they are supposed to, and in harmony with each other; the sensation is that of being relaxed.

Walter Ramsey

[lostinidlewonder]

When determining P touches on any piano I come across I first find out what force is needed to start making the keys go down. Those "cat stroking" circular actions are nice to use since it connects a soft touch of the fingers to the entire arm. I do not play a piece with this action (unless it is necessary) but merely use it to calibrate my physical exertion to produce P touches on the keyboard. 

Then I control my touch such that when my fingers hit the keys they are always only just being depressed and I can guide those keys down with my fingers producing the variations of p sounds I find visualizing circular movements of the finger tips help. Physically it might look like less effort but technically it requires much more control than playing at louder volumes.

However it is very difficult to fully understand volume control if you think about it in words since we must discuss it and experiment with it in context to an actual piece. What you might do to produce P sounds in one piece will be different to the other but of course there are similarities but also countless variation. What is common however is that we calibrate the energy required to start making the key go down. That is the basis for our P touches, then how we go about allowing the hammer to strike the strings is dependent on the piece you are playing.

[ramseytheii]

When determining P touches on any piano I come across I first find out what force is needed to start making the keys go down. Those "cat stroking" circular actions are nice to use since it connects a soft touch of the fingers to the entire arm. I do not play a piece with this action (unless it is necessary) but merely use it to calibrate my physical exertion to produce P touches on the keyboard. 

Then I control my touch such that when my fingers hit the keys they are always only just being depressed and I can guide those keys down with my fingers producing the variations of p sounds I find visualizing circular movements of the finger tips help. Physically it might look like less effort but technically it requires much more control than playing at louder volumes.

However it is very difficult to fully understand volume control if you think about it in words since we must discuss it and experiment with it in context to an actual piece. What you might do to produce P sounds in one piece will be different to the other but of course there are similarities but also countless variation. What is common however is that we calibrate the energy required to start making the key go down. That is the basis for our P touches, then how we go about allowing the hammer to strike the strings is dependent on the piece you are playing.

I very much like your last point, because it made me remember that often times a soft sound depends more on voicing than actually playing softly.  You get this with pieces like Chopin Nocturne op.9 no.2, where the student may not have enough control to play the left hand lightly and atmospherically; even if the right hand is at a good volume, it still will sound loud and clunky.

I recommend playing with a stroking touch for a variety of passages, and I'm not the only one - this kind of touch was noticed and recorded in historical accounts of both Bach and Beethoven.  Bach's touch was described as a "pulling" while transferring from one key to the next, that is, he stroked outwards along the keys; and Beethoven's was described as "dusting the keys," which gives a very clear picture of how he approached the keyboard.

Once in an informal talk, I heard Mitsuko Uchida say that while a lot of attention was given to the outward stroke (this is debatable, since a lot of piano teachers seem to have never heard of it, and some even consider it ridiculous), not as much attention is given to playing with a kind of pushing motion, which can be helpful for passages such as repeated chords.  In my experience, it is the outward stroke that is the most often used form of touch.  The pushing in has more limited application, in my view.

Walter Ramsey

[sarah the pianist]

Hi,
    When I play soft, I try to "push the key towards the ground" rater than just stiking the key. It isn't all about the pressure, its more the feel. I tend to start higher and flex my rist as I play the note. This helps because if you play the note too "slowly" then the note is highly likely to not sound.
     hope this helps
             sarah

[thierry13]

Remove weigth and feel the second bottom of the key.

[rachfan]

Hi cardinals,

I too play a Baldwin grand (Model L, 6'3").  I've always found Baldwin's action to be more on the firm side than Steinway's, but this is a positive in playing evenly with good control.  It does make it harder, however, to produce a pianissimo. 

There are a few things that I've found helpful in addition to using the soft pedal.  One is to lean backward on the bench until the extended arms feel like they're floating in the air.  This works best with moving passage work. 

Another technique I've discovered works exceptionally well when effecting a "subito" (or sudden) change from, say, ff to pp in the late and neo-romantic repertoire in particular.  To accomplish that, I lean slightly toward the keyboard (yeah, I know, we usually reserve that for fff, so this sounds counterintuitive, but let me continue.)  Having leaned forward a little with the soft pedal down, I then change abruptly from curved to flat fingers, pushing them forward on the finger pads, depressing the keys gently rather than playing them from above with finger strokes.  It can really create a startling and sumptuous drop in volume.  You can hear me do one of these subito changes in the Bortkiewicz Prelude Op. 33, No. 7 in F# in the Audition Room.

Finally, when there are repetitive chordal accompaniments in the left hand and/or within the right hand which is also playing the melody, a good trick is to play the chords "inside the keys"--that is, not allowing the keys to fully return to rest position.  That shortens the amount of "key dip" available, which also means repeating the chords with less velocity when striking the keys than would normally be the case.  With less velocity, the notes are automatically softer.  A good example of this would be in Chopin's Prelude No. 4 in Em.

I hope this helps.

[nyquist]

I recommend playing with a stroking touch for a variety of passages, and I'm not the only one - this kind of touch was noticed and recorded in historical accounts of both Bach and Beethoven.  Bach's touch was described as a "pulling" while transferring from one key to the next, that is, he stroked outwards along the keys; and Beethoven's was described as "dusting the keys," which gives a very clear picture of how he approached the keyboard.

I have found it useful to use a forward-moving touch when playing pianissimo.  See the first two videos in the link below:

https://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/movies/beast.html

The site contains several interesting articles on piano technique and mechanics.

nyquist

[m]

https://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/movies/beast.html

I am sure if I were to start thinking of those nonsenses I could not play piano at all.

[m]

The answer is in your type of touch - instead of hitting the keys, stroke them as you would pet a cat.  Don't confuse "relaxation" with passivity. 

Indeed!
In fact, my rule is "the quiter the music, the more emphatic expression and touch become".

Best, M

[nyquist]

I am sure if I were to start thinking of those nonsenses I could not play piano at all.

You should perhaps not try thinking, you could injure yourself, you are not used to it.

nyquist

[richard black]

Don't think about weight and all that nonsense, it never got anyone anywhere. What does help is to think about the speed the key is going down - in the end, after all, that's all that matters. You are simply moving a piano key downwards at a precise, quite slow, rate.

[m]

You should perhaps not try thinking, you could injure yourself, you are not used to it.

Really? How would you know? 

Getting back to the topic, not motions create music, but music creates motions. When you walk do you think about how yor muscles work? When you breath do you think about how your diaphragm works? When you through a stone do you think about combination of all your muscles and relaxation?
It reminds me a story about centipede, who started thinking how her legs work and synchronized and fell down.

All the best, M

[thierry13]

Don't think about weight and all that nonsense, it never got anyone anywhere.

Ho no? I'd review your conception of "anyone". Perhaps you know only people who play badly with high finger action, or you were taught by religious sisters in the 60s? Some people play very well without thinking about weight, but how you apply weight and how you connect the tip of your fingers to your elbow/back, or even hips, is fundamental to playing the more difficult repertoire, and helps a great deal to free your sound when playing easier pieces. Perhaps it is your conception of anywhere that is wrong? Maybe teaching universities or conservatories doesn't count as anywhere ...

[slobone]

All I know is, I would practice to death on my old upright, then I would go to my teacher's house and try to play pianissimo on her Steinway grand. Needless to say my practicing went out the window. So I think it all depends on the piano. Presumably if you're going to become a pro, you need to learn how to do it on any piano...

[richard black]

Perhaps you know only people who play badly with high finger action, or you were taught by religious sisters in the 60s?

Ha ha! Sorry, didn't make myself clear - I just meant there's little or no point thinking about how you're trying to do it until you've thought carefully about _WHAT_ you're trying to do - which is to move a key slowly, as I said. And once you've worked that out, you probably won't need to think about the 'how' anyway. Just like that nice little story of the centipede!

[nyquist]

When you walk do you think about how yor muscles work? When you breath do you think about how your diaphragm works? When you through a stone do you think about combination of all your muscles and relaxation?

There were no keyboards in the African savannas where we evolved.  Piano playing is an un-natural activity.  Making the parallel with breathing is just not useful, IMHO. 

nyquist

[m]

Piano playing is an un-natural activity.  Making the parallel with breathing is just not useful, IMHO.

I'd respectfully disagree. For those who got a good training, and/or who puts enough practice, analyzing, and thinking, the piano playing should be as natural as breath.
Maybe on a practical level the usefullness of the parallel is questionable, but there was completely different point and context.

Best, M

[rachfan]

I believe that marik is correct.  Once we've been trained in the fundamentals and fine points, for awhile thereafter we might examine the figuration in a score and make mental notes like, "I should play these octaves with forearm staccato", or "I must voice the tops of these chords by weighting the fifth finger in a certain way", or "to avoid a clash of hands, the left wrist must be raised and the right wrist lowered in this spot", or "I need to lower my shoulders to reduce tension", etc. etc.   

But over time, these things come more naturally, and conscious thought about them becomes more infrequent.  As we gain mastery, the music determines the motions.  The pedagogue Josef Gat (ignore the anatomical mumbo jumbo in his book and focus only on the the practical and applicable ideas) referred to "synthesizing" and "adapting" motions.  Unlike demonstrating a flexible wrist, a curved hand position, or how to produce a rich tone, these so-called "synthesizing" and "adapting" motions are difficult to impossible to teach--they are more complex involving approaches that go beyond fundamental teachings, but  nonetheless, also obtain the desired results.  The pianist develops these motions naturally and in the moment, often as effective coping motions and without any conscious thought.  It is really the music that necessitates these synthesizing and adapting motions, as well as differing tempos. 

Yes, once in a while, if a passage seems intractable during practicing, one might have to pause, observe the motions several times, analyze the problem, and find a solution that might involve better choreography of the hands, for example.  But most often, the music will generate the appropriate responses in terms of effective movements and motions in the playing.

[gyzzzmo]

I often had difficulty in playing notes in piano or even softer...They tended not to come out, or when I tried to play it a bit louder to prevent this it became too loud to make it even more awkward (especially in the ending cadences)...

Many guys pointed out that's mainly from the problem with relaxation...but if the arm is totally relaxed with gravity the fingers will hit the keys so hard that I wonder if there has to be any minimum force applied upward to reduce the gravity for the fingers to play the keys more slowly and gently...

(In other words, how to play pianissimo with still relaxed shoulder, arms and hands)

Someone told me to use the soft pedal but when I tried it, the tone was so different that it's hard to do the diminuendo gradually because of the sudden change in dynamics at the moment that pedal was used...

Any tips to figure this out? THX 

It also depends on the piano you use(d) to play on and wich you want to perform some piece on. A problem i often see is that people play on a digital piano at home and have problems playing on a grand later. Simple reason herefor is that on grands, you have to press the note entirely down to get sound and on a digital you dont have to. You see this not only on digitals, but also on some normal accoustic piano's.
This basic motion of pressing notes down entirely should become normal for you, and if you learn yourself pressing down in different ways you'll get better at playing pianissimo too without letting the note disappear
gyzzz

[omei]

Keep asking yourself, " Is this the softest I can play?"  and you will find that, most likely, the answer is "No."

[tds]

first, you must hear the desired p/pp sound in ur head b4 executing it. that "sound in the head" will dictate what to do to convert itself to the factual sound to you. needless to say, to follow the dictates is to get into the realm of breathing, being free and calm, pedaling, doing this and that motion, et al. the stronger inner hearing u have, the more determined dictation u'll receive.

tds

[photowriters]

The way a piano is setup can make a tremendous difference. I am in the market for a grand piano and have sat down at one piano and played a few bars of Bach's prelude in C from WTC book 1 and have had difficulty playing a true pianissimo, while a piano only six feet away allowed me to play a consistant pp both without effort and without thought.

[ramseytheii]

No doubt about it.  But as Richter, who didn't try out pianos before a performance, said, "It must be like walking on a tight-rope."

If you want to be a performing pianist, develop the skill to play pianissimo on any instrument - any instrument!

Walter Ramsey

[kard]

I vote for two points already made 
1. It depends on the piano.
--Therefore your skill should be thought about on a level independent of a piano.
2. It depends on the speed at which the keys go down.
--As already stated, I can personally vouch for this one...(not that I'm like..reputable or anything a vote is a vote though)
First focus on overcoming the resistance of your specific piano with an initial quick (not necessarily deep) downstroke, and then follow up with the control you need for your sound.
C.C. Chang focuses specifically on this in what he calls the basic keystroke:
--Downstroke, Hold, Release-- 
Of course I have to explore it more, but it makes sense and it has been working so far.

[tds]

first, you must hear the desired p/pp sound in ur head b4 executing it. that "sound in the head" will dictate what to do to convert itself to the factual sound to you. needless to say, to follow the dictates is to get into the realm of breathing, being free and calm, pedaling, doing this and that motion, et al. the stronger inner hearing u have, the more determined dictation u'll receive.

tds

trust me, u must do what i said FIRST, before considering doing or trying anything else. trust me on this one, i know i am right. tds

[dan101]

Playing softly is simply controlling ones strength. True, a good piano makes a difference, as the touch tends to be even throughout. However, strong, flexible fingers go a long way. 

[classical88]

Try exhaling as you play the very softest note(s).

[wbaatjes]

I find producing pianissimo on my own piano quite easy. I do sometimes have a problem  when playing on another piano. But I guess the reason is that I hardly play on another piano. I do the odd performance every now and then but very rarely.
I do not give too much attention on pedal work but keep on working the pedals as written on the score. I would however lean my top body (from the waist up) slightly more forward. I notice that someone moves his body to the back instead. I guess it's a matter of choice and comfortabality. When I lean slightly forward I find it takes some of the gravity away from my arms and makes it lighter. And I guess the most important part left for me to do is that of total finger control. You have to practically stroke the notes instead of pressing it.
I have a Wurlitzer upright piano and feel comfortable with it.
Please let me know if you think I may be wrong.
Tuscany

[tds]

technique is only applicable THRU listening. AND there are two types of listening:
1. before the actual execution of sound making ( inner hearing ).
2. after the execution ( factual sound ).

good musician spends a great deal of time getting type no. 1 right. tds

[invictious]

Visualize, as though you are trying to touch the surface of the water, enough to create gentle ripples, but not rough enough to break the surface and splash.

[omei]

Visualize, as though you are trying to touch the surface of the water, enough to create gentle ripples, but not rough enough to break the surface and splash.

Yes, good imagination will always help.

[tds]

you can click on my mussorgsky excerpt below. and if it appeals to your ear, you know that i know what i am talking about. tds

[mike_lang]

There are a couple of physical things that can help:

1) Play inside the key (inside the second escapement).
2) Play toward the very edge of the key.

And I suppose, there is a third....

RELAX!

[term]

There are a couple of physical things that can help:

1) Play inside the key (inside the second escapement).
2) Play toward the very edge of the key.

And I suppose, there is a third....

RELAX!

I don't understand the first 
However the second is not true. You often don't have a choice, and if, the difference is only the strength you need in order to press down the key. Pianissimo is possible and doable anywhere on the key.
I've often heard, that especially playing difficult stuff piano requires much more strength than forte. From my experience this is true.

good musician spends a great deal of time getting type no. 1 right. tds

word!

[tds]

word!

word creates us

"in the beginning there is word"

[mike_lang]

However the second is not true. You often don't have a choice, and if, the difference is only the strength you need in order to press down the key. Pianissimo is possible and doable anywhere on the key.

It is true that pianissimo is possible anywhere on the key, but toward the edge, there is less resistance, simply because of the mechanics of the lever - this facilitates control of the hammer speed.

[tds]

, but toward the edge, there is less resistance, simply because of the mechanics of the lever

why do we want less resistance to play pp?

[mike_lang]

why do we want less resistance to play pp?

Control - Experiment with it! :-)

[tds]

low resistance/lighter key is easy to control? i have done my experiment, and you can listen to the result by clicking on an audio sample in my previous post, in this thread. may i also listen to your result of experiment, please? thank you very much in advance. tds

[mike_lang]

low resistance/lighter key is easy to control? i have done my experiment, and you can listen to the result by clicking on an audio sample in my previous post, in this thread. may i also listen to your result of experiment, please? thank you very much in advance. tds

Dear tds,

I am not out to publish the definitive means of playing soft, but only to offer the ideas and means if I accumulated through my own practice.  What works for some may not work for others, but in my case, I find the lower resistance to allow the key to become more of an extension of the finger, yielding a greater deal of control.  I am sure that you did your best in experimenting with this, and am sorry that this method is not appropriate to your personal technique (everyone's technique is of course different).  I only offer my personal findings and, in any case, my best wishes.