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Topic: JS Bach Invention no 1 : Motif Analysis and "Musical Meaning"  (Read 15651 times)

Offline m19834

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I am currently going back through invention no 1, but I am relearning it from scratch with more information this time around than ever before (it's wonderful  :D ;D ).

I have run into a particular question regarding the idea of musical meaning as it is linked to motif analysis in this piece (but it brinks on relating to music in general, too :P).

When looking at the countermotive in the left hand in bars 3-4, one can see that the notes are barred together in groups of four.  However, one can also see that if the ascending notes are followed, it forms a pattern of 4-note groupings, using a part of the original motif in augmentation (eighth notes vs. sixteenth notes).  I can see how this latter grouping, the one based on the motif, would be considered as having "musical meaning" and I can accept this as making more sense to me than considering the groups of notes that are barred together as a "musical group."

However, I don't think that everybody in the world can accept this.  And, there is one particular argument in favor of keeping a sense of "note-groupings" based strictly on how the notes are actually barred together, and I think that argument rests primarily on "beat" and some kind of impression (though perhaps false) of rhythm.  Basically, some people argue that "Bach is very rhythmic and metric and therefore all of the downbeats must be accentuated, and each these groups of four notes, barred together, must be kept intact as a group."

Argh, this is difficult to get out.

Anyway, what my question is, I am not sure how the latter is inherently "less musical" -- especially when connected to pulse and rhythm ?  -- I can see that it is less motive-based, and I can easily accept which one makes more sense to me personally, but I can't quite argue away my question (and I would ultimately like to be capable of doing that).  I can also hear that the motive-based, augmented version of the note-groupings *sounds* better, since it's based on the motive.  But, if we are looking for musical meaning and not just what sounds better, and if musical meaning is currently not clearly defined (for myself), how does the decision on what to do not end up being made on what just sounds better ?  I am looking for musical meaning in order to avoid making a decision based on what simply sounds better. 

Okay, perhaps that's all a bit too heady  :-[ :-[ ... sorry.

Offline m19834

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Okay, I think I have figured out a bit of my little puzzle :P.  My argument was that grouping of notes being tied to rhythm could probably be classified as "musically meaningful" just as easily as motivic augmentation in truncated form.  And, I think fundamentally that is very true (and something to keep in mind with other pieces !). 

However, this piece is actually built on motifs, the nugget of musical information the entire piece is built upon is the tonal motive (though obviously rhythm does play a role).  So, in terms of "musical meaning," I can see that grouping the notes within the countermotive as an augmented and truncated motive, that grouping is more musically meaningful for the piece (and for the style of the piece) than it would be to suddenly think of the piece as built primarily on metrics and rhythm in the countermotive, but on tonal motif for the rest (obviously rhythm plays a role, but the motive is the musical seed of the entire piece).  The entire goal of the piece is to explore the possibilities of the motive and its development, which is exactly what a truncated and augmented motive would be, cleverly disguised in the form of countermotive.  hee hee ... okay, I am talking to myself  :-[

So, in short, I realize that what gives something musical meaning and how we analyze pieces has a lot to do with how these sections relate with the specific piece (and style).  It is musically meaningful unto itself and unto the governing musical principles of the time.

Thanks !  :)

Offline m19834

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And, now I have to address the role of rhythm within this piece -- at least as it relates to the motive.  In my last post I argued that thinking strictly in terms of metrics and rhythm, and then organizing groups of notes built primarily on that, did not hold water with the piece at hand.  I claim this because the piece at hand is built on a motive, and the motive in its various forms being the primary musical goal of the entire piece. 

My question was about how to organize the countermotive as seen in bars 3-4, and I wondered why it is not as musically sound to organize those notes in the way they are barred together, based solely on metrics and rhythm (where many people stop at the concept of Bach's music -- it seems that people stop at thinking Bach's music is squarely rhythmic).

So, I would like to speak in terms of the metrics and rhythm as it relates to the grouping of notes.  Yes, the motive is tonal, and yes the entire piece is built on the motive.  It is also true that the tonal motive has a rhythmic character, which establishes a particular rhythmic "feel" throughout the piece.  The motive, in fact, follows a rest; it is not introduced on the beat.  And, since the goal of the piece is to follow the motive and its variations, even rhythmically speaking, the countermotive is better organized off the beat rather than on the beat, as it relates to the motive in this case.

Given the character of the motive, both tonally and rhythmically, it actually makes sense in both ways to organize the countermotive according to an augmented rhythm, as well as tonal roots.  Barring the notes in sets of four, beginning on the beat, would make no sense rhythmically to the motive, as well as tonally.

Offline vongoldschmitz

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Re: JS Bach Invention no 1 : Motif Analysis and "Musical Meaning"
Reply #3 on: January 16, 2009, 06:18:30 PM
Have to check your points later just wanted to add, if you dont know allready, that there is a chapter about the inventions i changs book.

Offline m19834

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Re: JS Bach Invention no 1 : Motif Analysis and "Musical Meaning"
Reply #4 on: January 17, 2009, 12:50:30 AM
Thanks for pointing that out, vongold !  I don't know if I knew that or not, but in any event, I feel a bit like I am swimming in some great sea lately and having a little reminder or direction pointed toward something like that is helpful.  Thanks !

Online keypeg

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Re: JS Bach Invention no 1 : Motif Analysis and "Musical Meaning"
Reply #5 on: February 03, 2009, 04:16:31 PM
By chance I'm looking at this piece and just found your thread, Karli.  Among others, there is this analysis - even with an animation elsewhere:
https://www.teoria.com/articulos/analysis/BWV772/10.htm
another
https://solomonsmusic.net/bachin1.htm
What do you think of Peter Vinograde's interpretation?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XODjMWnV6UA

KP

Offline Petter

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Re: JS Bach Invention no 1 : Motif Analysis and "Musical Meaning"
Reply #6 on: February 03, 2009, 07:04:33 PM
Keypeg, you´re a violinist right? What do you think of this?
&feature=related
I know there´s been several recordings with string instruments, but this was the only I could find on youtube. I think picturing the both parts as string instruments helps a great deal with interpretation hints as to dynamics and phrasing. 

"A gentleman is someone who knows how to play an accordion, but doesn't." - Al Cohn

Online keypeg

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Re: JS Bach Invention no 1 : Motif Analysis and "Musical Meaning"
Reply #7 on: February 04, 2009, 09:38:29 AM
That is fascinating, Petter. 
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