Seasoned Players

[m19834]

I like them  .  Okay, but more than that, I just got some glimpse of what it must be like to have been a musician for say 50 years or so ... what is that like ?  I have this suspicion that I will just love it !

I am just pondering the various "stages" that people may pass through on their particular paths.  At some point, I think probably most people become somewhat obsessed with speed and accuracy, how fast something is learned, how fast it can be played, how many notes were in place or out of place.  I would think that most people grow out of this phase at some point, as a more mature musicality takes over -- not limiting speed and accuracy, but better knowing how and when to use it . 

Seasoned players, perhaps with a deeper appreciation for love and innocence.  Perhaps a better grasp of the things that really matter.

Then I caught a glimpse of being say, 70 -- what would I care about at that point ?  Whose criticisms would I be worried about then ?  What renditions would I be comparing myself to at that point ?  Would I relate with anybody at all anymore ?

I think I will like those days, my 70's. 

What's it like to play something in a way where you have passed all of the phases of caring what others think, and you in many ways don't care anymore, yet what you give has this ripe beauty to it that makes people like me want to listen for you with my entire soul and being ?  hmmm ? 

And, why are there not more of you ?    And, where are you ?    How can I spend more time with you ?  What advices do you have to give ?  What would you change if you could ?

Thanks and I love you .

[Essyne]

Beautiful thoughts, Karli.

My father always said that "It takes an educated man to take a concept and make it difficult, but a genious to take a concept and make it simple."

Seasoned players, perhaps with a deeper appreciation for love and innocence. Perhaps a better grasp of the things that really matter.

It's the vulnerability, the "here's my soul, I will give it to you and let you do what you will" that truly amazes me. That deeper appreciation radiates light and is 1000% beautiful.

And, why are there not more of you ? And, where are you ? How can I spend more time with you ? What advices do you have to give ? What would you change if you could ?

I'm with you here. Let me know when you find your answers! (Though, of course, I don't think someone who fits into this category of "seasoned players" will just come out and boast - I would think that they would be more humble - - - maybe we will just have to wait and stumble across them when our paths are meant to cross  )

~Ess~

[m19834]

(Though, of course, I don't think someone who fits into this category of "seasoned players" will just come out and boast - I would think that they would be more humble - - - maybe we will just have to wait and stumble across them when our paths are meant to cross  :- )

Oh, well, then I say to them : 

Just pretend -- you who knows who you are -- that nobody else is listening in.  It is just between you and I, and I silently beg that I can be near you . 

Just give me a little, tiny peek at you so I know you truly exist .

[Essyne]

*I'm not here either* 

Do you think that this is really something that comes w/ age, or just maturity? Are you talking about being completely masterful at your craft or just recognizing its beauty? Does magnitude of difficulty of what you are playing factor in?

I'd say that it is both, because I guess "recognizing your craft's beauty" falls under "becoming masterful," and one who is "seasoned" has not merely been playing for a couple of moons, but entire seasons. . . . .

eh - am still n/s about the age thing, though.

[m19834]

Do you think that this is really something that comes w/ age, or just maturity?

Well, obviously maturity, but there are those whom have been mature their entire lives, and those people age into something timeless .

Are you talking about being completely masterful at your craft or just recognizing its beauty?

Well, there is the masterfulness as well as recognizing its beauty -- but it's more than that.  It's a quality of life that somehow emanates through the music and through the piano.

Does magnitude of difficulty of what you are playing factor in?

Well, to some degree.  But, I think those things are not able to phase them in the same ways -- maybe there is a greater respect for what it really takes though ... the magnitude is part of the beauty, and somehow part of the grace.  It's not magnitude for the sake of magnitude, but maybe a magnitude of music because it reflects the musicality within.

I'd say that it is both, because I guess "recognizing your craft's beauty" falls under "becoming masterful," and one who is "seasoned" has not merely been playing for a couple of moons, but entire seasons. . . . .

eh - am still n/s about the age thing, though.

Yes, I know it's not a particular age.  It's a quality.

[m19834]

There are giants walking about this "room" --
whose moments have formed thoughts and whose days have formed words.

There are giants dancing about this room --
whose months have formed phrases, whose years have formed pages,
                                                                                   whose lives are poetry.

A presence enveloping more than one world and more than one life. 

[santafe]

I like them  .  Okay, but more than that, I just got some glimpse of what it must be like to have been a musician for say 50 years or so ... what is that like ?  I have this suspicion that I will just love it !

I am just pondering the various "stages" that people may pass through on their particular paths.  At some point, I think probably most people become somewhat obsessed with speed and accuracy, how fast something is learned, how fast it can be played, how many notes were in place or out of place.  I would think that most people grow out of this phase at some point, as a more mature musicality takes over -- not limiting speed and accuracy, but better knowing how and when to use it . 

I like them . Okay, but more than that, I just got some glimpse of what it must be like to have been a musician for say 50 years or so ... what is that like ? I have this suspicion that I will just love it !

I am just pondering the various "stages" that people may pass through on their particular paths. At some point, I think probably most people become somewhat obsessed with speed and accuracy, how fast something is learned, how fast it can be played, how many notes were in place or out of place. I would think that most people grow out of this phase at some point, as a more mature musicality takes over -- not limiting speed and accuracy, but better knowing how and when to use it .

Seasoned players, perhaps with a deeper appreciation for love and innocence. Perhaps a better grasp of the things that really matter.

Then I caught a glimpse of being say, 70 -- what would I care about at that point ? Whose criticisms would I be worried about then ? What renditions would I be comparing myself to at that point ? Would I relate with anybody at all anymore ?

I think I will like those days, my 70's.

What's it like to play something in a way where you have passed all of the phases of caring what others think, and you in many ways don't care anymore, yet what you give has this ripe beauty to it that makes people like me want to listen for you with my entire soul and being ? hmmm ?

And, why are there not more of you ? And, where are you ? How can I spend more time with you ? What advices do you have to give ? What would you change if you could ?

Thanks and I love you .

I like them . Okay, but more than that, I just got some glimpse of what it must be like to have been a musician for say 50 years or so ... what is that like ? I have this suspicion that I will just love it !

I am just pondering the various "stages" that people may pass through on their particular paths. At some point, I think probably most people become somewhat obsessed with speed and accuracy, how fast something is learned, how fast it can be played, how many notes were in place or out of place. I would think that most people grow out of this phase at some point, as a more mature musicality takes over -- not limiting speed and accuracy, but better knowing how and when to use it .

Seasoned players, perhaps with a deeper appreciation for love and innocence. Perhaps a better grasp of the things that really matter.

Then I caught a glimpse of being say, 70 -- what would I care about at that point ? Whose criticisms would I be worried about then ? What renditions would I be comparing myself to at that point ? Would I relate with anybody at all anymore ?

I think I will like those days, my 70's.

What's it like to play something in a way where you have passed all of the phases of caring what others think, and you in many ways don't care anymore, yet what you give has this ripe beauty to it that makes people like me want to listen for you with my entire soul and being ? hmmm ?

And, why are there not more of you ? And, where are you ? How can I spend more time with you ? What advices do you have to give ? What would you change if you could ?

Thanks and I love you .

Seasoned players, perhaps with a deeper appreciation for love and innocence.  Perhaps a better grasp of the things that really matter.

Then I caught a glimpse of being say, 70 -- what would I care about at that point ?  Whose criticisms would I be worried about then ?  What renditions would I be comparing myself to at that point ?  Would I relate with anybody at all anymore ?

I think I will like those days, my 70's. 

What's it like to play something in a way where you have passed all of the phases of caring what others think, and you in many ways don't care anymore, yet what you give has this ripe beauty to it that makes people like me want to listen for you with my entire soul and being ?  hmmm ? 

And, why are there not more of you ?    And, where are you ?    How can I spend more time with you ?  What advices do you have to give ?  What would you change if you could ?

Thanks and I love you .

[rachfan]

Hi Karli,

I'm probably one of the older members here--63.  But I'm still young at heart.  I believe your focus on phases that pianists pass through is a good one, but probably not too far removed from life phases.  Being a pianist is but one compartment of life.  The two are intertwined and rely and influence one another.  Life phases are more holistic involving the whole person, while artistic phases are more of a facet of those larger and all-encompassing life phases.

Some Brief Background: I am not a touring artist or pedagogue--merely an amateur who has been playing piano since age 8.  I spent 10 years up to age 18 in lessons with a conservatory-trained teacher who taught me the fundamentals of technique, theory and the art of performance.  During those years,  I entered adjudicated auditions every year playing a minimum of 10 pieces or more.  In so doing I earned a high school diploma (along with a traditional HS diploma) in artistic piano playing from the National Guild of Piano Teachers (American College of Musicians), which could have been a ticket into a conservatory or university music department for me.  I was also awarded the Paderewski Gold Medal, a small music scholarship, became a finalist in a competition in Boston, and played a very successful solo senior recital.  Before graduating from high school, I pondered my options and decided NOT to pursue a musical education.  My BA is in Political Science, and I have an MBA and Doctor of Business Administration degree (DBA).  Back in undergraduate school though, I did squeeze in music courses as electives as time allowed.  I also played some impromptu recitals and did some accompanying work with singers and a flautist.  As it turned out, I spent 38 of my 40 years in management, including top executive positions before I retired recently.

Back to piano.  At age 40, I felt that I needed to broaden and deepen my knowledge of piano through the discipline of formal study, so I resumed lessons for another 7 years with an artist-teacher who engaged me mostly on matters of interpretation and the finer points of musicianship.  I used that time well to expand repertoire.   

Taking about phases is an individual thing, and probably subjective, as one is analyzing the self.  It's dangerous to generalize.  In fact, others might find similarities or not be able to identify with another person's perceptions at all.  So here goes:

Phase I:

I think during childhood and adolescence, budding pianists are focused on learning the basics of technique and appropriate progressive repertoire.  If the pupil evolves to be one of his or her teacher's "prize students", the pupil will have many opportunities to advance, participate in a multitude of student recitals and other events, attend recitals of touring artists, and to be inspired to greater heights.  There are three critical barriers: Transitioning from elementary to intermediate repertoire, from intermediate to low advanced, and low advanced to advanced.  Many cannot manage those transitions and fall by the wayside.  For those who do manage the transitions well, the emphasis is mostly on being "the well-rounded student"--playing Baroque, Viennese Classical, Romantic, Impressionistic, Neo-Romantic and Modern repertoire.  It's much like paying dues to maintain credibility as a young pianist.  Those that do that gain in confidence--and harbor self doubts.  Most young musicians have a keen sense of what they do exceedingly well, and their weaknesses too. 

Phase II:

Being on the threshold of going away to college or university is a signal moment.  Serious choices must be made by a deadline, and majoring in piano performance or pedagogy is among the possibilities.  This induces soul searching, agonizing, getting advice from others, doing a brutally honest self evaluation, and weighing the probability of success or the risks of failure.  Those who have what it takes, and the courage to do so, go on to conservatories or programs at university piano departments.  Those who don't--or do, but have self doubts-- pursue other career choices and decide perhaps by default that piano will thenceforth become an avocation, not a vocation.  A die is cast at a young age.

Phase III:

Those who pursued a musical education successfully and with much encouragement ultimately face tall challenges out in the real world of "the music business".  There are very few "big careers" these days for touring artists.  There is the treadmill of competitions to try to gain visibility.  And the opportunities?  Increasingly, higher education will not hire pianists with an MM degree--aside from artists in residence, only the DMA or PhD need apply for faculty positions due to accreditation standards.  With all the new recording options open to artists today, the old "label system" is crumbling, and recording companies need fewer recording producers.  Opening and running a private studio has its own headaches, both figuratively and literally.  There are legions of music students relative to the number of viable opportunities available.  Compensation often becomes a major concern, sometimes just for survival.  In the end, a fairly small minority succeeds, and a majority looks for alternative career possibilities to keep body and soul together and to make a life.

In Phase III, those who chose to keep piano as an avocation are often highly successful at what they do in the professions, business or other occupations.  But they can also be continually haunted by having chosen to follow their heads, not their hearts.  They view the artist's or pedagogue's life very idealistically and harbor deep regrets and doubts about decisions long past.  Then again, decisions can be revoked--nothing is immutable.  Some even consider going back to school and doing it all over again, but in music.  Obversely, some musicians become so disenchanted that they return to school for a different master's degree to travel a different career avenue.  For those well established in careers though, most often practical considerations and thinking prevail--paying off the mortgage and car, providing for the family, and meeting other obligations.  As a compromise, some find advantage and enjoyment in studying piano privately again.

Phase IV:

By the time one is in his/her 50's, it is late career, and all re-visitations about earlier life choices have faded away.  Some other interesting things happen.  First, one happily accepts that having a non-musical career along with a music hobby has given them the best of both worlds.  A realization also sets in that the person's pianistic technique is what it is by that time in life.  The person reconciles to capitalizing on the positive aspects of that technique and abilities. 

The approach to repertoire changes markedly too.  That is to say, the days of "the well-rounded pianist" is no longer the rule.  The only expectations to be satisfied are now those of the pianist.  While young pianists focus on the scope of the repertoire, the older pianist becomes more intrigued with its depth.  This leads to specialization rather than being a generalist any longer.  Speaking for myself, in this regard, I now concentrate on the Late Romantic and Impressionist periods.  I have no further interest in playing any Baroque or Viennese Classical music.  I remain open to Modern music, so long as I can fund composers and music that will satisfy me.  At this state, the pianist, particularly the hobbyist, can throw off the chains and select pieces for self-satisfaction, not the expectations of others.

Practice approaches now become guided by wisdom accumulated over the years.  Endless repetitions are replaced by analysis of the score, observation at the keyboard, heightened sensitivity in listening to assure attainment of the musical objective in the moment, and highly efficient and effective use of limited time in practicing.  Making recordings is done with greater self assurance.

Comparing one's renditions with others now becomes unimportant.  In this stage the pianist knows the performance practices and how to bring to bear musicianship to achieve musicality.  The chief idea is to put one's own interpretive stamp on a piece.  In starting a new piece, I studiously avoid all recordings.  My desire is to work up my own interpretation from scratch and to let the piece take shape and form accordingly.  My one concession is to listen to one recording (if one is available in my collection) at the end of the process to see if I slipped a wrong note into the playing.  Sometimes I find that the artist making the recording played the wrong note, or that it's attributable to differences in editions.  In this phase one feels a greater sense of mastery in formulating a defensible interpretation, a sense of the style and sound of a piece, and the ability to put it across convincingly to the listener.

Phase V:

I'm probably not in this phase yet.  But I imagine that one becomes ever more acutely aware that given the vastness of the piano literature, that life is way too short to even cover one's "planned repertoire" in the time that remains--even if that "to-do" list is specialized.  Probably the pianist allows greater flexibility in changing priorities as new and wonderful discoveries are made in terms of composers and their lesser-known works of merit.  One of the sad things is the aging process itself, even when one takes good care of him/herself.  Osteoarthritis, for example, creeps up on most people, and that can affect dexterity, speed and accuracy in playing.  This likely leads to revised choices in repertoire.  The old saying that "It's far better to play an easier piece very well than to make a mess of a virtuoso piece" takes on new significance.  The good news is that if you look at videos of Rubinstein, Arrau, Perlemuter, et al playing in advanced age, it's obvious that they don't have the same capabilities as when they were young--tempos might be slower, a run might be muffed, there might be a small memory lapse, or whatever.  But they more than compensate in every other way to keep the audience riveted to the performance.  And, they're clearly still loving what they're doing--every second of it.  The same applies to the accomplished amateur.  It's no different.  Even if the amateur's "audience" is imagining the composer sitting in the pianist's living room and listening to every note played, that eternal striving for unattainable perfection remains a powerful force. 

Sorry for this lengthy post.  And it's only a single individual's viewpoint too.  I hope it's helpful.

[m19834]

Oh my gosh !  Thank you *so* much, Rachfan.  This post was just amazing for me -- and please !  I love the length .  I will read this many times over .  Thanks again .

ps -- Hi santafe 

[m19834]

A fool values youth over wisdom; a wiseman values both.

[m19834]

An honest question :  Is the habit of forming habits a bad habit ? 

[ted]

Karli, have you watched the three or four videos about "Havergal Brian, the unknown warrior" on youtube ? The first is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsHbjY8HbcE

I am sure you would get a lot out of them regarding your thoughts about "seasoned" musicians. If anybody was "seasoned" he was. He had an appallingly difficult life yet produced this incredible creative output well into his nineties. The message which comes across to me is that his obvious individuation and contentment stemmed from his complete refusal to be anybody other than himself musically. He held fame and oblivion in equal contempt and just pursued his artistic vision for itself and only for itself.

As rachfan says, as we age we come to terms with ourselves (some poor souls never do it, I hasten to add). The superfluous musical preoccupations of youth are seen for the illusions they were. Competition, comparison,  all manner of linear striving and worrying about what other people say or think... all these irrelevancies fade away into the past.

I cannot honestly find the words to express what happens. Perhaps Eliot came pretty close in the conclusion to his Little Gidding.

"...a condition of complete simplicity, costing not less than everything ... "

In attempting to write about it, I seem invariably forced to lapse into trite or mystical language, neither of which is much help to anybody.

[m19834]

Perhaps Eliot came pretty close in the conclusion to his Little Gidding.

"...a condition of complete simplicity, costing not less than everything ... "

Ted, thank you very much for your response, I will check the videos out.  You know, I really like that quote that you have pasted. 

Sometimes I feel like a big part of me is ready to just be "there" -- but I don't look like I should be.  I look like I should be thinking about other things and as though I should be striving for certain things.  Sometimes I feel a sense of ambition about my life, though I believe 10 years ago that ruled me more than now; I suppose ambition, to a large degree, got me through school. 

I guess it's tempting to think, perhaps around my age (and perhaps in the years before my age), that I must set something up for myself in order to ensure the kind of condition of simplicity that I interpret from that quote.  The idea that one must set things up for their future self to be happy and satisfied with a life well-lived.  On some kind of "other side" of it, I suppose I have viewed certain years to be the "prime" and that after that, people just accept whatever they did or didn't do -- almost like a resignation of sorts.  That doesn't seem right either.  I don't think it's something that can be setup as such, and I don't think it's necessarily a formula of resignation regarding one's progress, value and worth.

For some reason, during some years awhile back, I had a strong sense of my older self leading me in my daily walk.  It was as though she were smiling back at me, helping me keep going on a particular "path," telling me that I knew what would make me happy then.  That was my 80 yr. old self -- and, I have to say that it's so difficult to imagine myself passing through nearly 50 more years to get there !  It's mind boggling !  What do I do with myself between now and then !  Sometimes I just feel so out of place ! 

In any event, now is now, I guess.

[santafe]

Hey,Karli.Hey to everybody.I whish a good day to everybody.. I am a satndard member since 2005, and this is my first contribution to the forum. The question pointed out by K allowed me to give my oppinion with the hope to be interesting, and possibly useful to all.
Well, before going to the core of the quwestion a short introduction of my personal situation seems to be advisable, so that you can understand beter my point of view.




















 

[m19834]

Karli, have you watched the three or four videos about "Havergal Brian, the unknown warrior" on youtube ? The first is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsHbjY8HbcE

Well, this is quite remarkable to me.  I have just watched this short video and I have to say ... well, I don't know how to say it.  I have now re-read Rachfan's post and I eagerly await santafe, and this thread is .... well, I just very much appreciate the opportunity.  I wish I could fully embody every last morsel.

[m19834]

Hi.



Please.



Thank you.

[rc]

I mentioned in another thread that when I came across the idea of planning for where I wanted to be, I took it to the extreme and began thinking in terms of what I might want at 70 or 80...  But that's just so far removed from where I am now it's ridiculous, besides that I'm probably way off base

Lately I've become more comfortable with not knowing what loops the future may hold, and rather than planning for where I think I could be years from now I've decided to keep my plans within sight, just busy myself with what I think I ought to be doing and let's see where that leads.

Thanks for that post rachfan and another interesting thread from Karli!

[opus10no2]

When I'm past my physical peak I'll start thinking about music.

[m19834]

Hey,Karli.Hey to everybody.I whish a good day to everybody.. I am a satndard member since 2005, and this is my first contribution to the forum. The question pointed out by K allowed me to give my oppinion with the hope to be interesting, and possibly useful to all.
Well, before going to the core of the quwestion a short introduction of my personal situation seems to be advisable, so that you can understand beter my point of view.