Are there any other tonalities/tonicizations going on here...

[Bob]

Just thinking aloud....

With these chords, are they pointing at another key I wonder?


C   e   G   bdim   d  F  a  C

and

C  a  F  d  bdim  G  e  C


Hmm.....  There must be some blurry spots.  Something to similar to another portion of another key... 




The G bdim is pointing at C Major as the tonal center.  But that doesn't happen.  I wonder if I'm hearing it hover around a V of another key somewhere?  I sounds like this is changing keys somehow, or I'm hearing somethign along those lines.

I wonder if anyone else has any ideas.  There's an easy pattern to these.  It's not following the rules of course.  And it's losing it's tonal center.  Somehow.  I'm not sure what it's getting at though.



I played through it.  I think I hear it modulating a little to F/4th up.
     C   e   G   bdim   d  F  a  C
C: I   iii    V   viio     
                         F:   vi  I  iii   V...           
and

C  a  F  d  bdim  G  e  C
And maybe this all in C....


Seemed like a simple idea.  Sounds unstable.  Something's going on that I'm not quite picking up on.  Maybe I'm hearing it vaguely pointing at different keys.  It's ambigious maybe.

[Bob]

Nobody else is interested in this?

This is one of those things that makes me wonder if I'm just a little off from the standard classicla piano route.  I'm interested in the basics, maybe moreso than the actual literature.  I'm not tied to classical, more to colors.  I like harmony.  I find that fascinating. 

[m19834]

Well, I am interested.  I just don't have enough information yet to be of any use in participating in this thread in the way I think you would like. 

Honestly, I can intellectually "get" the idea that there are leading tones and some things resolve to this or that better than other things, but I have never really believed that this is anything more than what we are "trained" to think and hear, so that is something that has always bugged me.

If you go from V (or V7) to I at the end of those progressions, of course it will be more stable-sounding within the key it started.  None of those progressions have that, nor do they have any "standard" cadence.  It sounds like it's still on the move, but for me I don't hear it "pointing" anywhere in particular other than it just not being "done."

[Bob]

Well it's not just me then.  Good.  I think I might be hearing it going different ways in the second half of it.  The "IV" section if that's what I hear it in at that time.

It's my experiements for a chord routine.  It's just going up and down by thirds.  I, iii, V, viio, etc. 

I was just surprised that it's not grounded so much.  Intellectually it makes sense without the V I, but still... It's all in the same key.  Pan-diatonic I guess. 

[Bob]

I'm wondering if I happen to hit a key slightlyre more or less, or if I focus in on a certain note, if that will affect what tonality my mind is leaning toward.

Like the upper half of it -- Am I still hearing C, or is it now F?, or it that really Bb?

[m19834]

Well, to me it could essentially be anything as is because it hasn't actually established tonality yet.  It may be using those chords, which are found in the scale of C Ionian, but those same chords belong to a lot of different scales (including other modes -- though there is an argument (I think) that other modes can't necessarily establish tonality the same way "major (Ionian)" and "minor (Aeolian)" modes do ... but anyway). 

As I said before, for me, nothing is actually "pointing" to anything yet other than feeling like nothing has been firmly established.  These chords are more or less just hanging around in outer space for me.

I do suppose that if you concentrate on different notes, it would bring about a different harmonic focus -- depending on what your focus is -- but that still doesn't mean any particular key has been established.

Establishing a tonal center will also depend on the rhythm used when playing.

[Bob]

I think my ears are trying to get a tonal center.  They want that. 

And I'm thinking the material must be pointing at more than one.  Or maybe it's doing that.

It's probably not concentrating enough, but I would find I would play through those and then suddenly be out of the key for a second.  I would be playing those inner chords, ii's and iii's probably, and find I had forgotten what key I was in.  I don't think it's just a lack of attention though either.  I had to think about what key I was supposed to be in more because the sound wasn't reinforcing that.

Or, I'm just getting really good at jusitifying not paying attention.

[m19834]

So, I am just thinking that perhaps you mean for a person to actually play up and down, and do this back to back ?  When I first played through them, I just picked out the chords wherever I wanted (within two octaves), and I didn't just play up and back.  And, I treated them as two separate chord progressions and went up and down in each progression, depending what was closer.  Should I blame this on you being unclear, or would you like to blame it on me ? 

It may change things if I play it up and down back to back, but it still doesn't cadence.

[m19834]

Okay, so I just played them up and back down, and yes, it does change things drastically  .  It actually would sound perfectly fine if you invert the last "C" chord into 1st inversion, giving the leading tone its upward motion to tonic.  The "e" minor chord has two notes from the V chord (G), and its third note (e), is only half a step away from what would be the 7th of a V chord, making it very similar to a V7 chord.  It almost sounds like a cadence when you look at it that way, and when you invert the last "C" chord.

If you leave everything in root position, it will sound unstable because the note that "wants" to resolve (the leading tone) is not being properly resolved, whereas, if you invert the last "C" chord, there is upward resolution of the 7th scale degree and tonality is established in the key of "C."

[m19834]

Actually, looking at it once again, I am still not sure what you want  .

[Bob]

Is there anything funky going on with the tonality?

It's not exactly stable.  For sure.  But what is it doing?  That's all vanilla diatonic chords.  But they're not functioning as diatonic chords... so they're pan-diatonic then.  But so what about pan-shtuff.  What's it doing with the tonality?  Weakening it?  Weakening it by pointing at another key?  By pointing at several other keys?  Is that what my ears are hearing?  Is it 'vaguely pointing' at a few other keys at once?  I'm thinking that's it.  I think I could hear some of that, the upper part of the progression, as being in C, F, or Bb.  But those are just my ears too.  Maybe d minor too, when you start off in C Major -- I was thinking my ears may have want to keep that pattern going  I iii V viio... then i III v VII.  There may be something to that idea too.  The form impacts how you hear the tonality.

That's what I'm leaning toward.  I think the ears are always searching for a nice, comfy tonal center.  Things can be heard in different ways.  One note has many, many, many different colors based on its relationship to the tonal center and where it's going.  Tonal center, chord it's in, function of that chord... Probably getting toward an infinite number of colors.  Which is way music can sound so unique.  That's my thinking anyway.

I suppose I should work on my ear training so I know what colors I'm hearing better.  That would help, but I'm not doing that.

For this "progression" of whatever it is since it doesn't progress, group of  chords.... For this group of chords I think the common chords between keys mean that my ears might want to hear those other keys.  d minor to F Major... Might be C: ii IV   or it might be F Major: vi  I   or it might be Bb Major:  iii V.  Or it might be d minor: i III.   And something like voice leading, or just tapping one note a little louder than the rest, might affect what I hear as that tonal center.  Or maybe my ears are confused...  so the mind is confused too then. 

[Bob]

I see now I am hearing it go into IV on the upper part.  ii IV vi I becaomes vi I ii IV

Funny.  Serves me right for not modulating.  Remember kids, always modulate before you set off on a long exercise.  Modulate early, modulate often.

[m19834]

Bob, if you never set up tonality in the first place, you cannot "modulate" anywhere (at least it won't be experienced as such). 

[keypeg]

In the tiny bit that I have managed to learn about music so far, is that it is a thing with a destination.  Before you set your foot out the door you are going someplace, and this is true in playing as well as composing.   The bit of dry theory I've had so far seems to give a couple of road signs and arrows with a small general geographic map that I am learning to comprehend.  Otherwise I am modulating toward nothing, or my playing remains a pretty patter of notes.  The idea of destination actually blew my mind when it filtered through.

[Bob]

I can too modulate.  If that's what I hear.  I don't buy that it has to be set up perfectly.  I think the ears want to hear something. 

So a major chord is going to have "tonic color" at first if there's nothing else affecting it.

Oh I see.  Yes, I meant "set the key" not modulate.  It would help to... tonicize?  to set the key with a I V I before playing an exercise.

Or in the above group of chords, to go back to I after the V viio.  I tried that and it makes the ii sound much more ii-uey.

[m19834]

It would help to... tonicize?  to set the key with a I V I (...)

Which has pretty much been my point all along.

[Bob]

Well, I didn't want to do that.  I wanted to keep the pattern "pure."  That would mess up the pattern. 

[Bob]

Today I noticed the vi chord on the upper part of that group was really standing out as the tonic.  I guess without something to set the key, anything can be heard as tonic.

That seemed to make a little more sense.  vi is the relative minor of I.  Same chords in the key, almost.


And, if you play straight up/down I ii iii IV V vi viio, that that group of chords has more of a progression, esp going up, than if you go up/down in thirds, I iii V viio, etc.

[bananafish]

I think the first group of progression you provided (C e G bdim d F a C) does not have a tonic. Instead, it acts as a transitional passage from the previously established tonal center  to somewhere else. Notice that the roots are all a third apart (m3 or M3), which exhibits the characteristic of having a chromatic mediant relationship.

Composers sometimes use this technique (roots of the chords that are either m3 or M3 apart) in common tone modulations to successfully modulate from one key center to another, or even to a foreign key. So, check if the piece modulates right after the progression, if so, it's highly likely that it is a progression with some sort of a mediant relationship (which, remember, does not have a tonal center. It only has transitional functions in music.)

The second chord progression you gave: (C  a  F  d  bdim  G  e  C) is very likely that it's in the good old C major.

I - vi - IV - ii - vii (dim) - V - iii (which acts as a deceptive chord) - I (tonic).

I hope this helps.

Any other ideas?

[Bob]

Yes, that helps.  Confirms what I was thinking. 

It's not from a piece.  I was just playing arp's up and down over a scale, mixing them up.  I noticed my ears were getting confused.

[slobone]

Bob, the usual tipoff that a modulation is coming up is the presence of a non-diatonic leading tone. For example if you're in C major and you see an F#, that could mean you're about to modulate into G.

In the examples you gave, there are no non-diatonic notes, and the only chord with a diminished fifth has B as a root. Therefore, you remain within the world of C major. Even a modulation to A minor is unlikely without a G#.

[elbert]

 ;)Sounds like Eric Satie to me.....