Lifting the fingers high or Keeping them close to the keys?

[j849266]

Hey all you piano fans out there I have recently been thinking about this subject of wether one should play by lifting your fingers or keeping them close to the keys. Now I know it depends greatly on which technical aspect and what type of sound one is trying to achieve. Lets keep it strictly directed towards fast scale playing 160MM per quarter.  So for example, is it profitable to practice scales lifting your fingers or keeping the fingers very close to the keys or BOTH? Can one acheive the feeling of playing a fast scale with the whole arm/body by keeping the fingers very close to the keys and eliminating all unecessary mvt. and should that be the goal? Or should one feel the fingers doing alot of the work in a scale?




Here's cliburn playing some scales

Here's Argerich

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Kissin

[slobone]

Hmm, that Argerich clip is the one I was going to post in the "when great pianists play too fast" thread, before I decided it was a stupid topic. Maybe it belongs under "only a great pianist can play this badly" instead. She has a fatal tendency to push just that one extra notch too fast. Makes for an exciting performance -- keeps the audience on the edge of their seats waiting for her to crash and burn, which she never quite does. But unfortunately the musical coherence gets lost in the scramble. Chopin deserves better than that.

[rachfan]

When I do scales daily--the entire Circle of 5ths--either starting on Em and climbing by 3rds to C, or traveling downward in reverse, I feel content playing them carefully and accurately at 100 or 120 rather than being a speed demon.  Same with arpeggios, which I also do.  I don't think I could finish the entire circle at MM 160.  For me, that would result in increased tension leading to ragged or uneven playing after awhile--but everyone's different.

Usually highly-raised fingers are used (if at all) in slow practice to solidify articulation in rhythm.  When used, it's more typically in Baroque of Viennese Classical music.  It's OK to use that practice method PROVIDED the fingers are never raised above the knuckles of the hand, as that can result in injury.  When I was a kid, raised finger practicing was quite common, a holdover from historical pedagogues like Kalkbrenner from the 1800s.  My sense is that this has largely gone out of favor now.  I think you can get fine results by practicing with taut and firm fingers, but not raised.  I know I can.

[nia_kurniati]

Keeping them close to the keys. We make just few mistake with it, and we can play faster.

Hey all you piano fans out there I have recently been thinking about this subject of wether one should play by lifting your fingers or keeping them close to the keys. Now I know it depends greatly on which technical aspect and what type of sound one is trying to achieve. Lets keep it strictly directed towards fast scale playing 160MM per quarter.  So for example, is it profitable to practice scales lifting your fingers or keeping the fingers very close to the keys or BOTH? Can one acheive the feeling of playing a fast scale with the whole arm/body by keeping the fingers very close to the keys and eliminating all unecessary mvt. and should that be the goal? Or should one feel the fingers doing alot of the work in a scale?




Here's cliburn playing some scales

Here's Argerich

&feature=related

Kissin

[gyzzzmo]

Depends. If i play Bach i tend to lift my fingers abit, to make the sound more clearly. But when i do chopin i play the sticky way

[dan101]

The further away your finger is from the surface of the key, the more percussive the attack is. Although this is occasionally a desired effect (Bartok, for example), playing close to the surface of the key generally gives you more of a cantabile (singing) touch.

[thierry13]

The further away your finger is from the surface of the key, the more percussive the attack is. Although this is occasionally a desired effect (Bartok, for example), playing close to the surface of the key generally gives you more of a cantabile (singing) touch.

That's true if your technique sucks. Playing with high finger action simply gets an inferior sound on every point of view. The ones who do it well have more than amazing techniques and control. This should be avoided by anyone who has not got the talent of G. Sokolov.

[j849266]

G. Sokolov  !!!

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[gruffalo]

developing your scales is a very individual thing. we all have different strengths and weaknesses so i'll just say what improved mine.

i started by focusing on the downward pressure and placing energy into the keys through the ball of my fingertips. after a while of this (please take into account i spent several days to weeks going through each step because a lot of it was just me discovering different ways). eventually i started lifting my fingers to develope dexterity and "finger strength" (i dont like the term much, but this is what most people seem to understand. it doesnt really matter anyway). a good exercise for helping the 3rd and 4th fingers was to take the scale from 2341234 and repeat it going up and down at slow and fast fingers.

after i developed good coordination i started to look more into hand positions and how this all work in relation to the wrist and arm. the fingers can only do so much. at this point i began to keep my fingers closer to the keys and therfore more lateral vement of the arm was needed. the best way to achieve this was to tilt the arm and wrist/hand (only slightly) towards the left when performing a descending scale with the RH and an ascending scale with the LH.

to perform an ascending scale with the RH or descending with LH i dont tilt the wrist or hand much, but if anything it will still be slightly towards the left, however i will focus on keep the arm out and moving with the arm and still keeping close to the wrists.

Practice just moving the hand up and down the piano in the right position without touching the keys just to get the idea, but do don’t do this faster than you can play a scale.

Whilst trying all these different things out, you have to listen out for unevenness in the fingers. The most important thing is to get a teacher to listen and point out the technical problems and unevenness in the sound etc.

Always try and play scales with dynamics, musicality etc. it will help a lot.

In terms of actual exercises to do to help your scales, do the one I mentioned before and play with staccato, do groups of 2,3,4,5 etc getting faster when playing with a higher group number, alternate the staccato practice with finger and arm staccato.

i have some more to say about this stuff, but i have had a bit to drink, so i wont go on.

[lostinidlewonder]

Unfortunately there is no, this or that, 0 or 1, yes or no in music just like you can't say, Lift fingers high or close. It would be nice if music could be simplified this way but you cannot do this, everything depends on musical context not axioms and rules to follow by (although they are interesting to think about, the way in which you apply them must have some method/intelligence).

[j849266]

Thank you all for your comments. I am learning more about this as I analyze my playing and think about some ideas that you guys have shared with me. Thank You and keep them coming. I have realized something when playing fast scales, and that is you cant really play fast scales while lifting the fingers very high. Its just about impossible, your fingers need to stay close to the keys with the least amount of unecessary mvt to get a smooth effortless legato sound. It just makes sense that the faster you want to play a scale the less motion and distance there should be between your finger and the key. I just find myself retraining some of my fingers not to lift so high due to habit.

[gruffalo]

Unfortunately there is no, this or that, 0 or 1, yes or no in music just like you can't say, Lift fingers high or close. It would be nice if music could be simplified this way but you cannot do this, everything depends on musical context not axioms and rules to follow by (although they are interesting to think about, the way in which you apply them must have some method/intelligence).

i agree. this is why i felt that i should only describe my own way of finding my scale technique. apologies if it came out any different. this are all things that i feel should be tried, but i they may not necessarily give results. better than giving no advice in my opinion. also, many people will encounter different problems with scales. for example, the thumb wasnt a problem for me, but it will be for a lot of people.

[rc]

I practiced with high fingers for a while with the intent of developing accuracy, because if they come down like hammers there's no way of feeling first to see if I'm over the right key.

It was a useful exercise, but didn't at all feel or sound like actual piano playing.  Economy of motion is #1.

[thierry13]

Economy of motion is #1.

This can often lead to a lack of projection and of harmonic coloration/precision, even if it sounds great from the player's point of view. The best is to shape the music with your whole body, using exactly the movements that it needs. You stiffen your playing if you try to play everything but with less motion/effort.

[rc]

How does my playing get stiff when I'm aiming to use the least motion and effort to attain my goals?

I think it's more like a remedy for stiffness.

[thierry13]

How does my playing get stiff when I'm aiming to use the least motion and effort to attain my goals?

I think it's more like a remedy for stiffness.

Motion removes effort and stiffness, and creates a better sound overally.

[nightlordq]

Well, you need to lift fingers high on your tips or you might not go very far into playing piano well. It's your choice if you lift your fingers or keeping them close to keys. but since I only played recently for like 9 months, my teacher keeps telling me I need to lift my fingers high on the tips while I keep making the habit of playing with fingers flat. I use a book called Hanon: The Virtuoso Pianist. It really helps strengthen my fingers, loosen them since mine is stiff, make you play faster, play notes accuractly (no fumbles), and etc. My favourite exercise is no.6

[thierry13]

Well, you need to lift fingers high on your tips or you might not go very far into playing piano well. It's your choice if you lift your fingers or keeping them close to keys. but since I only played recently for like 9 months, my teacher keeps telling me I need to lift my fingers high on the tips while I keep making the habit of playing with fingers flat. I use a book called Hanon: The Virtuoso Pianist. It really helps strengthen my fingers, loosen them since mine is stiff, make you play faster, play notes accuractly (no fumbles), and etc. My favourite exercise is no.6

Lol. 9 months and he's telling us what's "going far into playing piano well". You'll learn.

[slobone]

I use a book called Hanon: The Virtuoso Pianist. It really helps strengthen my fingers, loosen them since mine is stiff, make you play faster, play notes accuractly (no fumbles), and etc. My favourite exercise is no.6

What is this Hanon of which you speak? (My favorite is #17, although I'm also partial to 20.)

[dan101]

Playing closer to the key gives a cantabile sound and is less tiring in a performance.

[rc]

Motion removes effort and stiffness, and creates a better sound overally.

I'm not even sure you and I are talking about the same thing

[thierry13]

I'm not even sure you and I are talking about the same thing

If you have to jump to get a bass note, would you simply aim it and slide to it in the most quick/direct and shorter way, or would you dare to make a "U" to it. The quick direct motion is stiffer and sounds bad, if you dare to do the U, it not only sounds better, it's more efficient, gives more precision and helps remove stiffness. One of many examples ... you have to do let's say a left hand of fantaisie-impromptu type of accompaniment. Would you do a full circle, doing the upper half of the circle while ascending and lower half of the circle while descending ? That's certainly not economy of motion, that IS motion, and THAT avoids stiffness, the fact that you use the right movement with the right exageration(not too much).

[rc]

Ok, I think I see what you're saying, and I agree.  It's easy to have semantic confusion over this sort of thing.  I've come to believe that describing technical matter visually (U-shaped, doing circles) is too easy to misunderstand so I try to approach it with more general principles, and in practice focusing more on sound and feel.  Thinking of how it looks has only tied my fingers in knots.

But I see how 'economy of motion' could also be misunderstood.  I think Chopin had it right in always repeating to students to play with ease.  It's a better description of what we ought to aim for.

[thierry13]

Ok, I think I see what you're saying, and I agree.  It's easy to have semantic confusion over this sort of thing.  I've come to believe that describing technical matter visually (U-shaped, doing circles) is too easy to misunderstand so I try to approach it with more general principles, and in practice focusing more on sound and feel.  Thinking of how it looks has only tied my fingers in knots.

But I see how 'economy of motion' could also be misunderstood.  I think Chopin had it right in always repeating to students to play with ease.  It's a better description of what we ought to aim for.

Chopin had indeed got it exactly right. Tough I think the visual description (u-shaping and circle) is ESSENTIAL to a great technique and good tone production. Of course it's easy to misunderstand when it is described textually, but when it is demonstrated, it is very clear. The visual description actually helps you do the economy of motion : you know PRECISELY the exact motion you have to do, you ajust it to the notes, to what you want to hear, to the music, and then you realise it with ease (as Chopin told his students), you never over-do it nor hinder the gestual aspect. Without this frame, you easily hinder or the music, or your body.