Practicing with a MIDI Controller

[sergeidave]

Hi Guys,

I'm about to buy a 88-key Midi Controller, and I was wondering what are your opinions and comments about using it for piano practice. I mean, can I still develop a good pianistic technique if I use a midi controller instead of a "real" piano? You know, controllers come with fully weighted keys, other are just semi-weighted, other are not weighted at all... How much would this affect your technique? Should a pianist work on his technique only using a "real" piano? What do you guys think?
By the way, I was thinking in a fully weithed or semiweighted keyboard, like the M-Audio Keystation 88es or something like that...

Thanks!

David

[slobone]

I mean, can I still develop a good pianistic technique if I use a midi controller instead of a "real" piano?

No.

[feddera]

If you get a full size MIDI-keyboard with 88 weighted keys, it is possible to gain great technique. Perhaps not world class technique, but I have seen great performances on youtube on digital pianos.

It is very important to get weighted keys, and in my opinion you should look at more keyboards than M-Audio. I didn't like their touch at all.

[thierry13]

An amazing technique is your body working with your ear to get the best sound possible. Working with a weighted keyboard is good since it will develop the muscular side better, and will most likely learn you how much energy does it take to push down a key on a real piano better. I do not think you will get the kind of technique it takes to make a real piano sound beautiful, tough. Tight rythm and clarity at most.

[sergeidave]

Oops! I forgot to mention why I was deciding for a MIDI Controller (or digital piano) instead of a piano. But your answers are very helpful, thanks! These were my motivations:

--- My old upright piano (spinet really) is suffering from stuck keys caused by humidity.
--- I just moved to a neighborhood where they don't like "noise" too early in the morning or too late at nights.
--- Or for that matter, when the kids are watching their favorite show or my wife is on the phone, I have to interrupt my piano exercises.
--- And last but not least, I also compose and produce music on my computer and my old Roland XP-50 is broken, which wasn't 88-key either.

To be honest, I'm not totally in love with the M-Audio key-action, either. But the "good" ones come very expensive. I will still look around my local Guitar Center, before I decide. Thank you guys very much!
If others have additional comments, please post them!

David

[feddera]

You should try the CME UF 80 MIDI-keyboard, which is in the same price range. It has much better action than M-Audio!

[dora96]

Oops! I forgot to mention why I was deciding for a MIDI Controller (or digital piano) instead of a piano. But your answers are very helpful, thanks! These were my motivations:

--- My old upright piano (spinet really) is suffering from stuck keys caused by humidity.
--- I just moved to a neighborhood where they don't like "noise" too early in the morning or too late at nights.
--- Or for that matter, when the kids are watching their favorite show or my wife is on the phone, I have to interrupt my piano exercises.
--- And last but not least, I also compose and produce music on my computer and my old Roland XP-50 is broken, which wasn't 88-key either.

To be honest, I'm not totally in love with the M-Audio key-action, either. But the "good" ones come very expensive. I will still look around my local Guitar Center, before I decide. Thank you guys very much!
If others have additional comments, please post them!

David

I am in the same situation like you. I want to practice and get access to my piano anytime, any day without disturbing people and  family. Due to restriction on my upright piano practice, I also bought  Casio 88 weighted keys piano keyboard. I have been using for 8 months. It was great at first, however I find that the keys in middle of the keyboard start getting gappy, loosing. not as firm as before. I must admit that I do use a lot. I practice on the keyboard from 8:30 to 12:00 at night. So it is good old 4 hours practice. I bit worry about the keyboard get loosen key. The sensitivities of the touching is not always satisfied . The pedal is keeping moving bit, I have metal cross stand, The metal intersection is against my leg, I find that it is bit annoying while I am using the pedal. I suppose it is better than no practice at all. Another disadvantage is I have to put on headphone. 4 hours non stop strong sound in my ears, whether is good or not I don't know yet. I just hope I won't develop hearing problem in the future.  One thing I do find that my ear on the sound has improved with correct tuning.

[slobone]

Certainly if noise is an issue you may have no alternative except to use a piano with headphones, in which case you may be able to make progress in certain aspects of your playing. But the original question was, "can I still develop a good pianistic technique" and I'm sticking to my answer: No.

It's not just a question of the weighting of the keys. Real pianos sound different, in spite of the advances that have been made in the digital ones. I just don't see how an electronic keyboard can ever reproduce the three-dimensional presence, the dynamic range, and the resonance of a piano. Not to mention the imperfections, which are an important part of the sound.

And the feel, which is more than just a question of the weight of the keys. When you play a piano you can feel the sound with your whole body. It sets up a feedback loop where sound goes from your fingers, through the piano mechanism (completely different on an electronic keyboard, of course) to your ears and the soles of your feet, and everything in between. Your brain processes the incoming information and adjusts what you're doing with your fingers, arms and shoulders accordingly. That's just not going to happen with headphones, at least not in the same way.

Incidentally, the fact that the piano is too loud for the neighbors -- that's kind of the whole idea. Fortissimos are just as important as pianissimos. If you were to achieve the same number of decibels with headphones on, you'd destroy your hearing!

If you want to play classical music well, you must have this experience on a regular basis. Maybe you could find a piano that you can play on the weekends at least?

[Bob]

What is a MIDI controller?  Is that just a digital piano?

[timothy42b]

What is a MIDI controller?  Is that just a digital piano?

They are sold as two different items.

Well, three, really, if you count stage pianos as different from digital pianos.

I think all stage pianos and digital pianos have MIDI out so they could be used as a MIDI controller. 

Unless I were strictly using it for composing I think I'd look more at the digital pianos and stage pianos than the MIDI controllers, because the MIDI controllers don't make sound on their own, you need a laptop or a MIDI module plus an amplifier and speakers. 

But there are some very small MIDI controllers that would be nice for travel. 

[keyb0ardfweak]

so...did I do wrong buying a yamaha clavinova?

I heard that people liked the touch of it and its features..


However, I still stick to a "real" piano, cuz I noticed the difference, the thing was that after playing a real piano, when I got home, I noticed that the clavinova sounded better..XD(cuz I configurated it to sound gud..xD). The only problem is that with digital piano's, you can't put that emotion you have when playing a real piano.

[andrew_close]

Hi There.

I've had exaclty the same problem as this for my entire life. The only time I ever get to play on a real piano is at a performance, or previously at my lessons.  I disagree with slobone that you need regular practise on a real piano. I'm get to play  one a few times a year, yet when I do it only takes a half hour to get a feel for the instrument and tone. However I do feel that experience on a real instrument is neccessasy when you're taking lessons.

As for your MIDI controller, I used to use an old Roland HP-330e digital piano, and it did me very well untill the keys started snapping off!  Then I briefly used a CME-UF8. I wouldn't recommend these keyboards, they are a little deceptive as they do feel good initially, however the range of dynamic responses you can elicit are rather narrow and I ended up very frustrated using it.  The new version may have been improved on however.

I now use a Roland FP-7 (i need a portable keyboard for gigs), it's the best digital action i've yet used, and my only gripe is that it can be slightly 'clunky' when you reach the bottom of the key movement compared to a real action but it's still lightyears ahead of my old 330-e.
From all my experinace, there is no midi controller that can match the actions on the roland and yamaha digital pianos (of if you're swiming in money, try the Kawai MP8), and the extra price is more than worth it. 


Here's a clip i recorded on my 330e a few years ago before it fell to bits.

Hope this helps!
Andrew

[dan101]

I have the M-audio pro 88 (weighted). It's good for late night practice and the keys have a fairly good touch response. It's also amazing as a controller.

I've played Chopin studies on it. It's not an expensive item, although I would recommend some good Steinway sound samples (perhaps East West Silver Orchestra, Native instruments... something along those lines). Good luck.

[cygnusdei]

Isn't latency a big deal with MIDI hardware? I heard that latency as high as 1000 ms (1 second) is not unheard of. Does it mean that the sound is lagging 1 s behind the actual depressing of the keys? Eww.

[andrew_close]

You need a fairly good sound card to reduce latency to a playable level (this varies with the performer, but I find anything over 7ms irritating)  They're not so expensive though - a half decent soundblaster can be got for 40 (GBP) on a desktop or 70-80 for a laptop.

I'd recommend Ivory as a soft synth, each key is sampled at 8 different velocity levels and there's Una Corda samples in there too - 10Gb of samples total for just the Steinway Grand and it sounds amazing when put through good amplification.  Better souding than any digital instrument (no digital piano has 10Gb of solid state sotrage yet), but still a good way off the real thing.

[slobone]

Hi There.

I've had exaclty the same problem as this for my entire life. The only time I ever get to play on a real piano is at a performance, or previously at my lessons.  I disagree with slobone that you need regular practise on a real piano. I'm get to play  one a few times a year, yet when I do it only takes a half hour to get a feel for the instrument and tone. However I do feel that experience on a real instrument is neccessasy when you're taking lessons.

As for your MIDI controller, I used to use an old Roland HP-330e digital piano, and it did me very well untill the keys started snapping off!  Then I briefly used a CME-UF8. I wouldn't recommend these keyboards, they are a little deceptive as they do feel good initially, however the range of dynamic responses you can elicit are rather narrow and I ended up very frustrated using it.  The new version may have been improved on however.

I now use a Roland FP-7 (i need a portable keyboard for gigs), it's the best digital action i've yet used, and my only gripe is that it can be slightly 'clunky' when you reach the bottom of the key movement compared to a real action but it's still lightyears ahead of my old 330-e.
From all my experinace, there is no midi controller that can match the actions on the roland and yamaha digital pianos (of if you're swiming in money, try the Kawai MP8), and the extra price is more than worth it. 


Here's a clip i recorded on my 330e a few years ago before it fell to bits.

Hope this helps!
Andrew

These days I spend about a third of my time on exercises etc., another third learning the notes for a new piece in a very mechanical way, and the last third I do pretty much nothing but work on the subtle nuances of articulation, phrasing, dynamics, rubato, agogic accent, balance of voices, pedalling -- of sound, in short. For the first 2/3 a digital piano would work just fine, but it's the last third that really matters to me. If I had to restrict myself to a digital piano I doubt I'd continue playing.

[oscarr111111]

All this stuff about not being able to develop good technique on a digital piano is clearly false or exaggerated.  Of course if you're going to be playing nothing but grands then playing a grand will get you a better idea of the feel, but you can obviously still develop exceptional technique and feel on a digital piano (a good one anyway).  Plus, 90% of time these days you'll end up playing a digital piano anyway heh, unless you're a classical concert pianist or get a very lucky regular gig with a house piano or something.

Of course if you want to play acoustic pianos at performance standard its important to get practice time on them, but you can still do the bulk of practice on a digital piano.