Ear training

[healdie]

Hi all
i have not been playing piano for that long and i am making quick progress but one of my weaker areas is my listening skills. i.e playing melodies after one listen, so my question is, are there any tested means that will help me increase my aural awarerness?

thanks

[nyonyo]

There is nothing to improve your hearing ability. Either you have it or not.
It is like color blindness, if you are color blind, you can practice like crazy and you will see no improvement. People who cannot hear well is usually because they do not have that ability at all. If you have the ability, you will be able to maximize your ability after taking piano lesson for several months.

[Kassaa]

There is nothing to improve your hearing ability. Either you have it or not.
It is like color blindness, if you are color blind, you can practice like crazy and you will see no improvement. People who cannot hear well is usually because they do not have that ability at all. If you have the ability, you will be able to maximize your ability after taking piano lesson for several months.

what that's the whole point of solfege trashed in one post -_-'

[oscarr111111]

There is nothing to improve your hearing ability. Either you have it or not.
It is like color blindness, if you are color blind, you can practice like crazy and you will see no improvement. People who cannot hear well is usually because they do not have that ability at all. If you have the ability, you will be able to maximize your ability after taking piano lesson for several months.

Everyone Ignore the above post...

There are a few books available on ear training, theres a Garry Willis one which is more guitar/bass based, theres a Jamey Aeborsold one which is more jazz based and there are a few David Lucas Burge ones, his Perfect Pitch one is questionable (good course apparently, its just questionable whether its possible to learn it) but his Relative Pitch one is supposed to be very good, quite expensive though.  You can also take private or public classes with a college or tutor.

As with anything though, the only way to get better at it is to do it, get some of your favourate recordings together and get transcribing .

[Petter]

https://www.earmaster.com/ this is a very good product to train with. Much of the difficulties in ear training classes is the pressure from the other students. With a program like this you can train on the things you find hard all by yourself. (This is not a commercial)

[term]

its just questionable whether its possible to learn it

There's not one thing that can not be learned.

[oscarr111111]

There's not one thing that can not be learned.

But there are many physiological factors which cannot be changed through learning, theres not sufficient proof for or against the learning of perfect pitch to draw a definitive conclusion.  I don't want to get into this argument though, and in my opinion while it would be nice to have there are many other aspects of music that you'd benefit much more from investing time into.

[nyonyo]

Everyone Ignore the above post

There are a few books available on ear training, theres a Garry Willis one which is more guitar/bass based, theres a Jamey Aeborsold one which is more jazz based and there are a few David Lucas Burge ones, his Perfect Pitch one is questionable (good course apparently, its just questionable whether its possible to learn it) but his Relative Pitch one is supposed to be very good, quite expensive though.  You can also take private or public classes with a college or tutor.

As with anything though, the only way to get better at it is to do it, get some of your favourate recordings together and get transcribing .

Have you used that book? I have 15 years experience dealing with children and try to improve the hearing ability. Not only from my experience, but from other teachers too. Unfortunately, people want to believe that it is do able to improve hearing ability. The relative pitch can be improved a bit, the problem is human brain. If the brain cannot remember the frequency, it is just impossible to improve the hearing ability. The same like my original example (color blindness). If your eyes cannot discern certain electromagnitism frequency, you won't be able to see color.

Many courses try to make money by selling the dream of being able to hear perfect pitch etc etc...
The advantage of having good hearing is that you will be able to remember pieces faster and also you can do improvisation easily. Unfortunately, not everybody has that ability.

[nyonyo]

There's not one thing that can not be learned.

There are many things in life that you cannot learn even though you want to learn, for example, you cannot learn to have good taste in music, painting etc. However, you can learn how to imitate.

[oscarr111111]

Have you used that book? I have 15 years experience dealing with children and try to improve the hearing ability. Not only from my experience, but from other teachers too. Unfortunately, people want to believe that it is do able to improve hearing ability. The relative pitch can be improved a bit, the problem is human brain. If the brain cannot remember the frequency, it is just impossible to improve the hearing ability. The same like my original example (color blindness). If your eyes cannot discern certain electromagnitism frequency, you won't be able to see color.

Many courses try to make money by selling the dream of being able to hear perfect pitch etc etc...
The advantage of having good hearing is that you will be able to remember pieces faster and also you can do improvisation easily. Unfortunately, not everybody has that ability.

I'm not a fan of method books for any aspect of playing, I learn much better under my own incentive and with the aid of private tutors, those are well regarded books for anyone who does prefer that method though.

I do agree with you in some aspects, I just think you've either worded your reasoning badly or have slightly missed the obvious fact.  What I agree with is that it is impossible to increase your ability beyond any pre-existing physical limitations, what I don't agree with is the claim that it is impossible to vastly improve your music ear full stop.

Aural training is less a case of actually learning any new ability but just learning to recognize and categorize what you can already hear.  To continue with the examples theme take birdwatching, a beginner wouldn't know any difference between the different species he sees and would have to refer to a guide, an expert would know exactly the characteristics of each specimen and instantly be able to say what he saw.  Ear training is about learning to recognize different aspects of music theory in what you hear and almost anyone can learn to spot different intervals, chords, cadences etc.

Over the past few years I've been transcribing various things, actively listening and also being taught and tested on aspects of aural ability on my uni course, I'm primarily a bass player which gives me a slight advantage at aural harmony as root motion and chord inversions obviously come a little easier to bass players due to the amount of exposure to these things, but my abilities have increased massively in that time, before that I had trouble jamming with other people, writing parts by ear, working out parts to pieces I had to perform, playing songs I didn't know etc. etc.  Now I can easily do all these things and more, the most pleasing accomplishments of aural training I've found were the ability to hear a line or part in my head and play it on my instrument knowing that it'd work with the music I'm playing it to and also the ability to recognize chord progressions and key changes (have to know the starting key of course unless you have perfect pitch.. which I don't, I just watch what the piano or guitar player plays to pick it up ) and thus be able to accurately predict the next chords and quickly pick up songs by ear.

[term]

There are many things in life that you cannot learn even though you want to learn, for example, you cannot learn to have good taste in music, painting etc.

Why not? And what exactly is good taste, what's the definition?
What i had in mind was rather a coherent logical reason why something can not be learned as opposed to the mere observation that there seem to be boundaries for some people and for others not, determining the speed of learning. When you come right down to it there is not one single reason that could stop someone from learning something, only a difference in speed of learning (otherwise called talent) which can be increased as well over time.
You should consider that besides talent, there are much more significant things that stop you from advancing, such as attitude, focus, devotion and time.

[nyonyo]

Why not? And what exactly is good taste, what's the definition?
What i had in mind was rather a coherent logical reason why something can not be learned as opposed to the mere observation that there seem to be boundaries for some people and for others not, determining the speed of learning. When you come right down to it there is not one single reason that could stop someone from learning something, only a difference in speed of learning (otherwise called talent) which can be increased as well over time.
You should consider that besides talent, there are much more significant things that stop you from advancing, such as attitude, focus, devotion and time.

Are you saying that if you want and have enough time to develop that you can become Van Gogh or Mozart. Or let's not go that extreme, are you saying that we can become a concert pianist if we are given time and opportunity. Or let's use something very simple, for example running.
Everybody can run, but how hard somebody tries, he or she will have very slim chance to run as fast as a world class athlet. I really believe that human being have many limitation.

[term]

I really believe that human being have many limitation.

I don't, which is probably why i succeed. Let me quote Bruce Lee here. "Sooner or later the man who wins is the man who thinks he can". 

[oscarr111111]

Are you saying that if you want and have enough time to develop that you can become Van Gogh or Mozart. Or let's not go that extreme, are you saying that we can become a concert pianist if we are given time and opportunity. Or let's use something very simple, for example running.
Everybody can run, but how hard somebody tries, he or she will have very slim chance to run as fast as a world class athlet. I really believe that human being have many limitation.

Again I think you're close but have missed the point, I think that anyone who puts enough effort in and is given enough time and guidance could become a Van Gogh or Mozart, the only difference between these and other people is that they put the time and effort into learning their trade at the level they reached, the closest thing to talent involved is having the luck to be taught or learn practice methods efficient enough reach their impressive abilities inside their own lifetimes.

On the other hand, you can take two runners both hypothetically being absolutely perfect at their trade and race them, the one with longer legs will always win... (there are more factors in running, for example some people are more suited to short or long distance running based on how their muscle cells respire, but we can ignore these for the sake of the example).

[nyonyo]

I don't, which is probably why i succeed. Let me quote Bruce Lee here. "Sooner or later the man who wins is the man who thinks he can". 

Could you please share what kind of success that you have accomplished? I am curious to know whether it is really talent or your hard work?

[healdie]

but if this is now a topic of talent then i think a natural talent can be a bad thing take the case of Mendelssohn, we was a very gifted child prodigy but i came so naturally to him that he did not put the effort into it that someone els may have, this is why some of his compositions will not stand up to the greats to those composers who studied all of their lifes to become great.

[term]

Could you please share what kind of success that you have accomplished? I am curious to know whether it is really talent or your hard work?

That is something you will not know until you actually get to know me in real life and/or know my past, which is why its unnecessary to present you here a list of what i can or can not do (such a list would be quite odd anyway). My point, in case you have missed it, was to stress the importance of belief in success, which was also bruce lee's point, in other words something purely logical: If you believe in limits, they become true because you don't attempt to go beyond them since they are fixed. If you don't believe, than those limits which are real will hinder you anyway, but those which aren't are not a limiting factor anymore.

[nyonyo]

but if this is now a topic of talent then i think a natural talent can be a bad thing take the case of Mendelssohn, we was a very gifted child prodigy but i came so naturally to him that he did not put the effort into it that someone els may have, this is why some of his compositions will not stand up to the greats to those composers who studied all of their lifes to become great.

The other great composers might just have a little less talent than Mendelsshon. But they did have tremendeous talent too....Especially when comes to composing...Talent is much more than hard work.

[nyonyo]

That is something you will not know until you actually get to know me in real life and/or know my past, which is why its unnecessary to present you here a list of what i can or can not do (such a list would be quite odd anyway). My point, in case you have missed it, was to stress the importance of belief in success, which was also bruce lee's point, in other words something purely logical: If you believe in limits, they become true because you don't attempt to go beyond them since they are fixed. If you don't believe, than those limits which are real will hinder you anyway, but those which aren't are not a limiting factor anymore.

There are seven talents in human being. This is based on schoold of phsycology of Standford University. You may want to read that article. You can search all over the internet. One of the talents is called "intra personal skill". It is the ability to access one's own ability. Some people just do not have this talent so that he or she will think that everything can be achieved. Those people do not even know that they do not have the ability to do certain thing. For example: some people think that if they practice math alot, they will be good.  Up to certain level, people can practice to do decent skill in math, but to be a great one, one needs talent to be able to see beyond the numbers written on a piece of paper.

[term]

There are seven talents in human being. This is based on schoold of phsycology of Standford University. You may want to read that article. You can search all over the internet. One of the talents is called "intra personal skill". It is the ability to access one's own ability. Some people just do not have this talent so that he or she will think that everything can be achieved. Those people do not even know that they do not have the ability to do certain thing. For example: some people think that if they practice math alot, they will be good.  Up to certain level, people can practice to do decent skill in math, but to be a great one, one needs talent to be able to see beyond the numbers written on a piece of paper.

My findings do not support this view. But it's highly debated anyway. I think it's simplistic, because it regards abilities as something that's switched on/off, and if one thinks that one must also think that the brain - in fact, humans - work modular.
From neurology, we know that this is only partly the case with the human brain. Then we know imo from education and teaching how learning works, check out this article - ironically from some guy at stanford - which points out how much is psychological. (Btw, i didnt find the study you were referring to) Etc, we could really go in depth with this debate, but we shouldnt.
Maybe you know the saying "Success is 1 % inspiration and 99 % transpiration" (Thomas A. Edison). That is how it works.
What i love to do i do 24/7 from the minute i wake up to the minute i go to sleep, which is why i'm good at it.

[nyonyo]

What i love to do i do 24/7 from the minute i wake up to the minute i go to sleep, which is why i'm good at it.

You may not realize that you are actually very talented in whatever you do 24/7.
Again, let's use math. How hard somebody try, if math is not his or her forte, he will not be good. It is beyond practice..It is instinct combine with basic knowledge. The math priciple is not complicated, but the application can be tricky. Those who have talent can twist simple thing become unbelieveable things.

By the way, please do share what your success is...I am not going to make fun or something like that. We are discussing about this matter so it is very useful to use your real example in the discussion.

[rimbaud]

Have you used that book? I have 15 years experience dealing with children and try to improve the hearing ability. Not only from my experience, but from other teachers too. Unfortunately, people want to believe that it is do able to improve hearing ability.  The relative pitch can be improved a bit, the problem is human brain.

I'm absolutely HORRIFIED you teach children anything with your "you either have it or you don't," philosophy.  In fact, from everything that I've read children are the MOST able to improve their aural comprehension, both relative and absolute.  Actually all infants are born with "perfect pitch," or as you say "hearing ability."  It's part of a mechanism to help us learn language as children.  What happens is because of lack of musical training or because of poor musical training (hint hint nyonyo) most kids lose this ability as they grow.  

What will really blow your mind though is that grown-ups can learn ear-training too!!!  In fact, adults can improve their relative pitch and musical memory not only "a bit" as you say, but to such an extent that they can't be differentiated from someone who was born with "perfect pitch."  Paul Hindemith argued this in many of his writings.  

There are seven talents in human being. This is based on schoold of phsycology of Standford University. You may want to read that article. You can search all over the internet. One of the talents is called "intra personal skill". It is the ability to access one's own ability. Some people just do not have this talent so that he or she will think that everything can be achieved. Those people do not even know that they do not have the ability to do certain thing. For example: some people think that if they practice math alot, they will be good. Up to certain level, people can practice to do decent skill in math, but to be a great one, one needs talent to be able to see beyond the numbers written on a piece of paper.

Seriously, have you ever met anyone who thinks that everything can be achieved?  I, sadly, can't say that I have.  Monsters like you Nyonyo come along and tell people they can't do things and they give up.  I happen to have tutored many many people in math.  Every math student I've ever helped is convinced they're stupid and "can't see beyond the numbers written on the piece of paper"... probably because they've had trash teachers like you.  And believe it or not every single one of these students is fully capable of grasping every difficult, complex, abstract idea i throw at them.  In fact, it is often these students that come up with the most ingenious, extra-ordinary solutions to very complex mathematical problems.... 

Anyway, the original poster wanted help on improving his/her ear. There's a lot of stuff out there.  A pretty thorough program called MacGamut is worth looking into:

https://www.macgamut.com/

You could also buy an ear-training/sight singing textbook; most conservatories/music schools use them... "music for ear-training/sight singing" seems to be a popular one.  I second the recommendation to start transcribing music!  You'll learn so much very very quickly.  Good luck healdie!

[nyonyo]

I'm absolutely HORRIFIED you teach children anything with your "you either have it or you don't," philosophy.  In fact, from everything that I've read children are the MOST able to improve their aural comprehension, both relative and absolute.  Actually all infants are born with "perfect pitch," or as you say "hearing ability."  It's part of a mechanism to help us learn language as children.  What happens is because of lack of musical training or because of poor musical training (hint hint nyonyo) most kids lose this ability as they grow.  


What will really blow your mind though is that grown-ups can learn ear-training too!!!  In fact, adults can improve their relative pitch and musical memory not only "a bit" as you say, but to such an extent that they can't be differentiated from someone who was born with "perfect pitch."  Paul Hindemith argued this in many of his writings.  
Seriously, have you ever met anyone who thinks that everything can be achieved?  I, sadly, can't say that I have.  Monsters like you Nyonyo come along and tell people they can't do things and they give up.  I happen to have tutored many many people in math.  Every math student I've ever helped is convinced they're stupid and "can't see beyond the numbers written on the piece of paper"... probably because they've had trash teachers like you.  And believe it or not every single one of these students is fully capable of grasping every difficult, complex, abstract idea i throw at them.  In fact, it is often these students that come up with the most ingenious, extra-ordinary solutions to very complex mathematical problems.... 

Anyway, the original poster wanted help on improving his/her ear. There's a lot of stuff out there.  A pretty thorough program called MacGamut is worth looking into:

https://www.macgamut.com/

You could also buy an ear-training/sight singing textbook; most conservatories/music schools use them... "music for ear-training/sight singing" seems to be a popular one.  I second the recommendation to start transcribing music!  You'll learn so much very very quickly.  Good luck healdie!

You have read unrealistic book or book written by people who try to promote their money making effort. I was with a music education system purporting that children can develop their hearing ability. Based on my experience and others in the same music education system, it is not the case. They either have it or not.

You must be in the business of selling this hearing improvement system. Even Claudio Abado does not have good ear, don't you think it is a big insentive for him to have good hearing since he is the music industry?

Yes, I will tell people the truth. Don't BS to me, I have an engineering degree so I have strong math skill. Why those kids need your math tutoring and why some don't? Those who are not talented in math won't be able to figure out what the teacher explain, they need people to digest and explain to them in an easier way. They will never be good in math, they will just achieve what you thought them, they will not progess beyond what you explain to them, because they are inherently not good in math. I do not believe what you said about those students taking lesson from you could come up with smart idea to solve the math problems. Just to understand the basic concept they have had problem, how could they can even come up with a smart solution.

[rimbaud]

Don't BS to me, I have an engineering degree so I have strong math skill.

You seem awfully narrow-minded to be an engineer.  Mechanical or Chemical?

[nyonyo]

You seem awfully narrow-minded to be an engineer.  Mechanical or Chemical?

Neither Mechanical nor Chemical....Electrical in Communication System.

[rimbaud]

You have read unrealistic book or book written by people who try to promote their money making effort. I was with a music education system purporting that children can develop their hearing ability. Based on my experience and others in the same music education system, it is not the case. They either have it or not.

It sounds to me like you were, perhaps, taken advantage of yourself in this money-making scam.  In any event, the fact remains there are ways to improve one's aural comprehension.  I mentioned a few really great ones.  But as another poster commented, the best way is to turn on the radio and start writing down what you hear (transcribe).  It's completely free.  I think it's terrible that you are discouraging people from broadening their musical abilities.

[nyonyo]

It sounds to me like you were, perhaps, taken advantage of yourself in this money-making scam.  In any event, the fact remains there are ways to improve one's aural comprehension.  I mentioned a few really great ones.  But as another poster commented, the best way is to turn on the radio and start writing down what you hear (transcribe).  It's completely free.  I think it's terrible that you are discouraging people from broadening their musical abilities.

You mean I taught music but did not believe in it, yet I still did it ? While I was going to school, I needed to survive, so I taught that bullshit method.  But after several years, I dicovered that this thing is just a gymic, I stopped teaching that course. I concentrated in one and one student (private lesson). After I am done with my schooling, I taught piano just for fun. I chose the students. Yes, I did choose the ones that I believe have potential. I did not take anybody whom I think did not have the ability. It is a hell to teach untalented kids. In general, you can tell from the beginning the kids who have no talent.

[rimbaud]

You mean I taught music but did not believe in it, yet I still did it ? While I was going to school, I needed to survive, so I taught that bullshit method. But after several years, I dicovered that this thing is just a gymic, I stopped teaching that course. I concentrated in one and one student (private lesson). After I am done with my schooling, I taught piano just for fun. I chose the students. Yes, I did choose the ones that I believe have potential. I did not take anybody whom I think did not have the ability. It is a hell to teach untalented kids. In general, you can tell from the beginning the kids who have no talent.

You have got to be kidding me.  To review you've said:
1)  You are not qualified to be a piano teacher, you've studied engineering
2)  You've willingly participated in a scam, at the expense of young music students to "survive"
3)  You don't believe that it is necessary or even possible to improve one's ear....  which technically is the whole point of any music lesson. 
4)  You discourage others from engaging in productive musical activities....

Do you have a soul?  Do you kill kitties too?

[nyonyo]

How do you know that I am not a qualified piano teacher. I have an international piano certification. Don't just open your mouth if you do not know who I am. I was one of the best teachers in that system, in teaching as well as as having students to stay in the program. Children and their parents love me. When I stopped teaching all of my students threw me a party.

I discourage people from wasting their time if I believe the activity useless.

By the way, you are correct. I did let my Akita killed any cats that got into my back yard, at least four.

[term]

You may not realize that you are actually very talented in whatever you do 24/7.
Again, let's use math. How hard somebody try, if math is not his or her forte, he will not be good. It is beyond practice..It is instinct combine with basic knowledge.

I know what you mean. Still, i don't think a strength remains strength and weakness remains weakness. But this remains a matter of belief as long as we don't go into the depths; and i think this isnt the right place for doing so. However i really recommend to listen to those who actually are considered to be genius in their field, and most support the 1-99 view, as far as i know at least. I mean, even bach said something similar - "The most stupendous miracle in all music" according to Wagner

[nyonyo]

I agree with you. Work hard is needed to cultivate one's talent. But if the from place there is no talent, I do not know what one will cultivate. That is why conservatories have auditions, they want to get the talented kids and then teach and make them work hard to cultivate their exceptional talent. If they do not believe in this, they will just take anybody who wants to learn piano and then teach and make them work hard.

[healdie]

The other great composers might just have a little less talent than Mendelsshon. But they did have tremendeous talent too....Especially when comes to composing...Talent is much more than hard work.

I was not saying that the other guys were not talented, because they obviously were, but i think my intial question has been misinterprated i did not mean that i have no hearing ability because i do it is just not as strong as other aspects of my musciianship, so i was looking for excercises to help my improve this aspect, not to develop it altogether, anyway i do believe that it can be taught as someone comparedt it to been colourblind saying that they can not be taught to see colours but i see complete deafness in that exztreme and yes you can't teach a deaf person to hear but i am not deaf and i have the talent i would like to imrove it which must be possible for example if a footballer is a good dribbler but not a good striker then he will isolate this aspect of his playing and improve it, and this is what i wish to do

[feddera]

You should check out https://www.perfectpitch.com/

Seems pretty solid and comprehensive. I haven't gone trough the entire thing, but I plan to do eventually.

[rc]

I agree with you. Work hard is needed to cultivate one's talent. But if the from place there is no talent, I do not know what one will cultivate. That is why conservatories have auditions, they want to get the talented kids and then teach and make them work hard to cultivate their exceptional talent. If they do not believe in this, they will just take anybody who wants to learn piano and then teach and make them work hard.

What to cultivate if there's no talent? What about some basic ability?

I don't want to get into the nature/nurture arguement, I've seen it too many times.  The way I see it people ought to adopt the most useful attitude, and if someone genuinely wants to play beautiful music or improve their hearing, the only useful way to go about it is to assume that it's entirely possible.

But let's imagine a student with 0 talent, maybe it's a middle aged man with a family whose only music-making was to play a CD.  Do you believe he could be taught the basic skills, and perhaps if this hypothetical student puts in enough time and effort, could manage some simple music?

I think that even students with less ability can make beautiful music.  It may be simple, but only musicians would know this, and everybody can enjoy beautiful music.  Besides there are personal benefits from the very discipline required to study music that are generally beneficient to a persons well being...  I see a lot of value in teaching the ungifted, and respect to the teacher who has to work harder for the students.

Conservatories may be different from place to place, I've heard stories of how insanely competitive some schools can be.  But I was under the impression that the audition was to make sure the student could handle their curriculum, sort of the same way that a bank wouldn't give anybody a mortgage but first wants to make sure they can afford the payments (a lot of people get PISSED OFF when the bank decines the mortgage that would be the lendees financial ruin ), and also to get a feel for the students abilities and know where to best place them.

So I suppose it's the same thing you said, they have certain standards to be met.  Nobody wants to waste their time on somebody who won't put in the effort, and what better way to know a student knows how to work than if they meet a certain standard.

In the end, I don't believe that the cream of the crop is all that matters, that the slower learners have their place too.

[mepianist]

Hi all
i have not been playing piano for that long and i am making quick progress but one of my weaker areas is my listening skills. i.e playing melodies after one listen, so my question is, are there any tested means that will help me increase my aural awarerness?

thanks
 Well, agood trick to get good listening skills is hering some simple pieces and trying to figure out what the notes are, you can start with simple recorded pieces and then try harder ones you could also ask you re teacher for classes,to train your hearing

[etcetra]

I think its nonsesne to say that you can't develop your hearing and your ears.. its like anything else you have to learn to do it over time.  Relative pitch can be developed significantly.. I don't think I had great ears when i was young, in fact i didn't start music until i was a teenager.. when I stared learning jazz in college i did a lot of transcription and that helped my ears a lot.. I can transcribe film scores and big band charts (although not perfectly).. all i know is that the ability to do them is not acquired naturally but as a result of hard work over time.. 

I dont want to get into nature/nuture  either...but i will say this much I know there are plenty of great musicians who were considered untalented by their teachers.. some of them couldn't pass the audition.. so who is to say that someone has talent or not?  And if someone is not learning as well as they should perhaps its not so much in their talent but in the way you are teaching them? who knows. 

I know most talented people work their butts off getting there and they had the passion to do it, and when i was in school its not the people with talent that went the furthest.. its the most dedicated students that went far in music.. so i just wonder how much "talent" is a factor in being a musician.


here's a mozart quote

"It is a mistake to think that the practice of my art has become easy to me. I assure you, dear friend, no one has given so much care to the study of composition as I. There is scarcely a famous master in music whose works I have not frequently and diligently studied."

Mozart