A Masterclass video

[tengstrand]

Hello all,

I put up a video from last year's Helsingborg Festival on my blog. If you have comments here or (maybe better, since non-pianostreet folks can then read them too) on the blog it would be interesting. It sometimes takes a little while for the videos to load on the page.

I have lots and lots more like this, and we're heading for a new festival in August. I worked my butt of last year, kept the budget, doubled both attendance and numbers of students, and all I got for thanks was a 20% cut in the budget. Oh well. That's why I have been slow on getting more videos out. But I realize I just can't sit on this stuff, though.

Hope it's any good!
https://pertengstrand.wordpress.com/2008/06/13/masterclass/

All best,
Per

[teresa_b]

I enjoyed it!  I had some trouble understanding the Maestro because of the echo and his way of speaking.  Also, I would have liked to hear much more.   

Thanks
Teresa

[slobone]

If you don't mind a comment -- the young lady, at first, plays very nicely but too metronomically and a little too fast. This is painful to listen to in Chopin. He has to be approached from a different direction -- not here's the tempo I'm going to use in this section, and now I'll apply some rubato, etc. but what am I saying in this phrase, and having said that, what do I want the next one to say. It should sound improvised, especially the slow parts.

As for the teacher, his advice is good, but I'm not sure he's getting through to her. Part of the problem is that he says too much whenever he talks. With students, you tell them one thing at a time and then let them try that, then one more thing and they try that, etc.

But thanks for posting, I love masterclasses!

[lostinidlewonder]

Too much talking not enough direction. He could have done just as good over the phone with her. I find the best teachers are very direct, they pick out exactly what your problem is, they don't talk in general terms, or softer here louder there. They target the problem and it causes the sound to correct itself. There is no vagueness. Masterclass with Barenboim on youtube, now thats getting somewhere!

[faulty_damper]

I agree.  A "talking head" is one who talks, talks, and talks.  I don't even know what he really wants her to do.  In fact, she sounded worse after he talked than before.

If that's the point, maybe a plumber might be better suited for the job since he fixes things for a living.

[tengstrand]

Well, if you don't understand what he is talking about, that's your problem since I understand it perfectly well. The plumber comment is just rude and dumb.

[tengstrand]

I should also add that they had worked on the piece before.

[piano_ant]

Too much talking not enough direction. He could have done just as good over the phone with her. I find the best teachers are very direct, they pick out exactly what your problem is, they don't talk in general terms, or softer here louder there. They target the problem and it causes the sound to correct itself. There is no vagueness. Masterclass with Barenboim on youtube, now thats getting somewhere!

I have the dvd. Is it the Beethoven masterclass? I like Barenboim because all of his comments are very straightforward and cerebral, however, I really don't always care for his Beethoven. Which to me is intriguing. He speaks with so much emotion about playing, but sometimes his playing sacrifices this for clarity, which is strange.   

However I do think that there are other ways to teach in a masterclass. I find that good teachers are also the ones to not only show you the answer, but to plant important questions ( regarding problems, motives, feelings, etc.).. and letting you find your own answer. Sometimes, being vague is as specific as you can get when talking about music!

[tengstrand]

Excellent and very smart point, Piano_Ant.

If I understand it correctly, Barenboim was teaching Lang-Lang and Biss? Not really the same thing, is it? This girl is 14, and one should also know that she was under terrible stress, having the idea that she HAD to play an incredible amount of pieces. So she started to just run them through without thinking enough. That's why he tries to calm her down, to get her to understand that it's important to think through the piece. The idea that getting a lesson is like going to a doctor for quick, straight fixes is being blind for the complexity of music and music-making. Every student is also very different, some overthink things, some don't think at all, some have not enough confidence and some are over-confident.

I took hundreds of hours of lessons with this guy before I won the Cleveland Competition ( I didn't know I could just as well prepared the pieces with a plumber!), and believe me, if one listens to him one learns

I will put up more, but I don't care too much for stupid people's rude comments, so just mail me here and I will give you the link where to find them. I will put up the continuation of that lessons, and also me teaching op. 110, Beethoven fourth concerto and more.

[slobone]

Sorry, tengstrand, if you're including me among the rude and stupid people, but you must know that on the Internet you take your chances whenever you post anything. People are going to express their opinion, and not just the brilliant people. If you're feeling sensitive about something, don't post it.

[tengstrand]

Slobone, I didn't mind your opinion at all. You were neither rude or stupid. I think it's obvious who were.

Feel free to mail me and I'll tell you the new link for the rest when it's up.

Since it's not me teaching, and since there are kids playing, I feel responsible for not putting things up for mean comments, though. I should mention that the girl playing has an incredible "intake" for her age, and that's why he allows himself to be a little complicated at times.

[general disarray]

I don't understand the dismissive comments here.  Seriously, I don't. 

This is what good master classes are like, and the maestro is very articulate and pays this young pianist the compliment of communicating to her artist to artist.

He's wonderfully expressive, generous and kind.

This is a worthy project to put out there on the internet.  As all your projects have been.

Ignore the nay-sayers.  I have no idea what their problems are.  I'm a veteran of many master classes and this one appears to be world-class.

[faulty_damper]

Well, if you don't understand what he is talking about, that's your problem since I understand it perfectly well. The plumber comment is just rude and dumb.

I understand exactly what is trying to do.  I've attended many "masterclasses" before and most of them are exactly like this.  There is too much thinking instead of doing.  And when they do do, they don't know what it is to do.  Why would you want a student to understand something they are not able to do?

Good masterclass teachers do at least two things: 1. get noticeable improvements, either musical or technical, immediately and 2.  enlightens those improvements so that it can be applied to similar context.

From the audience perspective, this should be crystal clear immediately because they are only observing.  From the student's perspective, it should be crystal clear afterward because they must both be instructed and perform.

He does neither.  She actually played the opening passage worse after he spoke.  Is this the point he was trying to make? Clearly it wasn't because he didn't get the result he was after which led to even more talking.

I took hundreds of hours of lessons with this guy before I won the Cleveland Competition ( I didn't know I could just as well prepared the pieces with a plumber!), and believe me, if one listens to him one learns

A good teacher teaches to the student's ability and comprehension.  Instead, you had to learn his method of teaching through "hundreds of hours of lessons" before you "won the Cleveland Competition."  You must really be a good student.

Secondly, I made no comment about the student who is always innocent.  It was the teacher who is suspect.  If his point was to make her play worse, then clearly he succeeded.  He's a really good teacher!

[general disarray]

She actually played the opening passage worse after he spoke.  Is this the point he was trying to make? Clearly it wasn't because he didn't get the result he was after which led to even more talking.

A good teacher teaches to the student's ability and comprehension.  Instead, you had to learn his method of teaching through "hundreds of hours of lessons" before you "won the Cleveland Competition."  You must really be a good student.

Secondly, I made no comment about the student who is always innocent.  It was the teacher who is suspect.  If his point was to make her play worse, then clearly he succeeded.  He's a really good teacher!

Am I missing something here?  When I clicked on the master-class link in the original post, I got two short videos.  One of the student playing bits of the Ballade and then only approximately 5 minutes of the teacher working with her.

Do you have the rest of the class in your link?  Say, even 30 mins more?  If so, then I suppose you can judge if the student regressed instead of progressed. 

From my vantage point, I only have 5 mins.  Mr. Tengstrand explained that the student was very nervous.  It's clear in the first 5 mins the maestro is trying to get her to breathe, phrase, take her time.  We've only seen an introduction to this class. 

But, again, perhaps your link has more than the 5 mins I have and you are in position to judge both the teacher and, as it turns out, Mr. Tengstrand.

[faulty_damper]

So he would edit a clip to display that she played worse.  What a genius!

[tengstrand]

FaultyDamper, you have made your point. Now go call the plumber, will you?
 

[general disarray]

Mr. Tengstrand's participation on this forum, as infrequent as it is, is always welcome.  

I wish you could temper your criticism of him on this issue.  Having him so offended that he never returns would be right up there with losing marik, ahinton, jpowell, etc.

We can use his input here.

[faulty_damper]

The topic is A Masterclass Video.  This forum is welcome to comment as they wish with either praise or criticism on Tengstrand's website promotion.  He clearly received a few hits on it and probably more because of this discussion.

Others have offered their opinions from their experiences.  I offered my opinions from my experiences.  My experiences inform me that this class was clearly ineffective at the task at hand.

As to Tengstand, I can understand that this masterclass teacher is someone with whom you have a close relationship with and no doubt attribute some of your skills to.  But that does not mean he is without question as you imply.  I am not the one who is insecure and feels compelled that he has to defend someone else's actions or abilities.  In fact, none of my criticism has been addressed which implies that they are valid.  Instead, I have been attacked and asked "politely" to shut up.  Are you from communist countries or democratic ones?

Anyway, my toilet needs fixing.

[tengstrand]

You confuse democracy with rudeness, I'm afraid. And it's clear that what is annoying you is that this post give hits i.e. promotes my website which makes the "communist" comment very entertaining.

A short summary of what is said during the lesson:

Do not feel like you have defend your playing because a lesson is not a trial, it's a situation where you work towards making things better.

Do not focus on what goes wrong in a piece while playing

Do not play the coda too fast, because when the audience can't hear what's going on it looses effect.

This means to stay cool in your head in the most dramatic moments of the music

If she starts the coda too loud, she will cramp the thirds

To create a "space" of sound in the introduction which is not too soft since it will not allow to come down to Mezza Voce when the melody starts

A dynamic shape of a phrase ( cresc. - dim) does not necessarily mean that there has to be a felt direction in the phrase to a certain point ( I could add that especially that is true in the introduction since it goes to F Major in a F minor piece)

These are just from the beginning of the lesson. For those who prefer to have a pointless discussion about "how a good teacher is" I have no time.

I'm happy to share the rest of the lesson with the rest of you.



 

[ramseytheii]

I was surprised to watch the video, because based on the negative comments I expected something else entirely!  I don't think there is anything objectionable in here, and there is definitely nothing worth getting mad over.  I don't think she played worse after his comments?  I thought it was fine.  Actually I thought he handled the student very well, when she said she only played it one month.  That's always unnecessary!  But he handled with tact and with a surprise response which was clever.

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

A dynamic shape of a phrase ( cresc. - dim) does not necessarily mean that there has to be a felt direction in the phrase to a certain point ( I could add that especially that is true in the introduction since it goes to F Major in a F minor piece)


 

I've always been interested in this little discussed phenomenon.  Crescendi and diminuendi are actually three dimensional phenomena; sometimes they come forward, towards somewhere, or backwards, away; other times they stretch outwards or constrict inwards.  I find that very few people seem to recognize the difference. 

In some pieces, when a crescendo should spread outward rather than just forward (think three dimensional spaces), a forward-crescendo will sound muscular, aggressive, and out of place.  I commented on one such occurence in the Audition Room, in a fellow's otherwise lovely "Cygne" transcribed by Godowsky.  His crescendo wasn't three dimensional, it was just coming straight forward; it should have spread outward.  A small detail but of infinite use!

Walter Ramsey

[ronde_des_sylphes]

This was interesting to watch, not least because it seemed very reminiscent of my experiences attending similar classes. Regarding whether she played it worse afterwards or not, if (and I'm certainly not convinced) she played it worse afterwards, that is surely not so uncommon in such situations, as the teacher is planting ideas in her head as how to play a passage and it is unrealistic to expect such ideas (no matter how good the teacher) to crystallise immediately within the pupil's mind.

[tengstrand]

Ramsey, I really like the way you put that, as a crescendo being three-dimensional. I hope you allow me to use that expression in my teaching.

And yes, I agree. It's very common when one tries to do new things for the first time that the result is, in the short run, not better. But it is in the long run.

[faulty_damper]

You confuse democracy with rudeness, I'm afraid. And it's clear that what is annoying you is that this post give hits i.e. promotes my website which makes the "communist" comment very entertaining.

Very creative twist on ideas to suit your own purposes.

[faulty_damper]

This was interesting to watch, not least because it seemed very reminiscent of my experiences attending similar classes. Regarding whether she played it worse afterwards or not, if (and I'm certainly not convinced) she played it worse afterwards, that is surely not so uncommon in such situations, as the teacher is planting ideas in her head as how to play a passage and it is unrealistic to expect such ideas (no matter how good the teacher) to crystallise immediately within the pupil's mind.

This already presupposes that the idea must be given.  It does not.  Most masterclass teachers talk to get their idea across instead of guiding it.  If they guided it, it will be very obvious to everyone because there is a before and after moment in little time.  You get both an immediate improvement and enlightenment instead of talking.  Words cannot convey meaning as effectively as actions especially in music.

She was not guided.  She was told some vague and abstract ideas that she didn't understand and she was unable to apply them to that piece.  If she were guided, she would know exactly what to do and get it right.  Not only would there be a comparison of before and after but she would be able to make a choice of whether the before or after was desirable.

The point of a masterclass is not just for the student on stage but also for the audience.  The audience are also students but in a more detached way.  They learn by watching the student on stage and seeing improvements.

Good masterclass instructors know that the student is everyone in the room, not just the student on stage with him.  They know that they must offer the audience something that works and must be effective and perhaps entertaining.

The audience wants a clear demonstration of ideas so that a comparison can be made.  Compare and contrast is a central idea in learning theory.  Without it, nothing can be placed in context and nothing can be learned.  There was no comparison even in the instructors speech.  He was just telling things that could be understood intellectually but not applicably.

[ramseytheii]

I think I understand your observation, but I also think you're overreacting.  In a collection of essays on Russian literature, Nabokov blasts those who want the "literature of ideas," those who seek philosophical or moral guidance, or provocation, from novels.  He said instead the only duty of the author is to give the reader images - strong, indelible images that they can relate to and remember and feel viscerally.**

From this perspective, the teacher only hinted at strong images, in my opinion.  That doesn't make him terrible or bad or annoying or anything, it just isn't strong images.  It's more ideas.  For me, the opening of the fourth ballade is the gathering around of the people around the fire, the moment before a story is told equivalent in feeling to the tuning of an orchestra, when the audience eagerly waits the music to follow.  I love the sound of orchestras tuning.

He hinted at that by asking her to picture herself as an old person who has no energy but wants to tell a story, but the image sent a bit mixed messages, because should the music be played without energy?  No, it should have the energy of anticipation without hurrying, the slow setting of the stage for the tragedy to follow.  She was pushing it forward too much, he recognized it and tried to hold it back, and I think got the idea across, but not by means of a strong image.  Well how can you blame a person for not being something?  I just don't think it is that objectionable.  And it doesn't really sound worse afterwards.

When you said his comments made her sound worse, I imagined a teacher who gives confusing physical advice and then the student doesn't even know how to approach the keyboard for the remainder of the masterclass.  I've seen that many times and I think it is annoying and offensive, but this is not that!

Walter Ramsey


** No coincidence, then, that for him the greatest novel of the 19th century was Anna Karenin, a novel that readers often describe as a lived experience, rather than a read one.

[ramseytheii]

Ramsey, I really like the way you put that, as a crescendo being three-dimensional. I hope you allow me to use that expression in my teaching.

And yes, I agree. It's very common when one tries to do new things for the first time that the result is, in the short run, not better. But it is in the long run.

I hope you do use it.  Too few people recognize the distinctions possible in crescendi.  Another image, applicable to a passage with accelerando and diminuendo, is that of the upward spiral.   This gives a strong three dimensional vision of what the music looks like, and one can really see the music twisting up and dissolving away, like candle smoke.

I found it interesting reading those Nabokov articles (mentioned in my post above) that he saw the main duty of the novelist as providing images.  In a way sight is the sense through which we filter the other senses.  For me it is most effective to imagine music in visual terms, more effective than even imagining them in sound.  The pianists I enjoy listening to the most are those whose playing seems to give a visual representation of the music (Gould was the ultimate of this). 

But of course sense lots of great pianists provoke different feelings, it can't be said that the image is the most important thing in music, at least I don't think. 

Walter Ramsey

[qkim]

“Faulty Damper”… seems to me like a “talking head”. I don’t quite understand what he wants. Yet he keeps talking and talking… My guess is that HE doesn’t understand. So he assumes NOBODY understands. I find the teaching enlightening and very helpful EXACTLY for the reason that he doesn’t tell one simply WHAT TO DO, but he starts with how we perceive, how we THINK! Not just WHAT to do but WHY! and for me equally important is his teaching of HOW. I hope this teacher's “head” “talks” another 100 years. 

[m]

Too much talking not enough direction. He could have done just as good over the phone with her. I find the best teachers are very direct, they pick out exactly what your problem is, they don't talk in general terms, or softer here louder there. They target the problem and it causes the sound to correct itself. There is no vagueness.

How nice to see somebody who knows exactly how things should be and for whom there is no vagueness in music  .

As a side note, I always though the best teachers are those who don't correct the problems, but prevent them. I have to admit, I don't quite see or understand how sound can correct itself.

Best, M

[m]

Good masterclass teachers do at least two things: 1. get noticeable improvements, either musical or technical, immediately

This is only one of the "types" of masterclasses. It is effective when you teach intermediate student during a job interview.

From the audience perspective, this should be crystal clear immediately because they are only observing.  From the student's perspective, it should be crystal clear afterward because they must both be instructed and perform...

From my (audience) perspective, the message was immediately crystal clear. And I am sure from the student's perspective it was clear, as well. There are things which might take some time to absorb, but this is already not the point.

...A good teacher teaches to the student's ability and comprehension.  Instead, you had to learn his method of teaching through "hundreds of hours of lessons" before you "won the Cleveland Competition."  You must really be a good student.

I am afraid, I'd strongly disagree. A good teacher does not teach to the student's ability and comprehension, but a good teacher raises the student's ability and comprehension.
A good teacher is not the one who "targets" a certain problem, but the one who looks at the core of the problem. A good teacher is the one who teaches not "for today", but the one whose students ten years later would exclaim: "Now I see what s/he meant then"!!!

And BTW,  hundreds of hours of lessons before winning such a competition as the Cleveland to me sounds about right for a great pianist and artist.
Although it would be only my guess, but I'd imagine those lessons were not about "how to play the piano", or "targeting specific problems" ( ), but rather music discussions, finding musical images, as well as finding the most effective ways of self expression.

Best, M

[m]

I've always been interested in this little discussed phenomenon.  Crescendi and diminuendi are actually three dimensional phenomena; sometimes they come forward, towards somewhere, or backwards, away; other times they stretch outwards or constrict inwards. 

I think this is a very good point, which is rarely recognized, or discussed.
Most of the people see crescendi and diminuendi on a "softer/louder" level, while in fact, those are rather function of changings of sound image, emotional context, and music intensity.

Best, M

[teresa_b]

I think this is a very good point, which is rarely recognized, or discussed.
Most of the people see crescendi and diminuendi on a "softer/louder" level, while in fact, those are rather function of changings of sound image, emotional context, and music intensity.

Best, M

I like the 3-D dynamics concept!  I have on occasion made a comment in Audition Room (or thought about something missing in my own playing) about the music "going somewhere" having a shape--there is so much more than just uphill/downhill, and suggesting to a student more dimensions or contexts for the desired sound is a great idea!

Teresa

[general disarray]

I've always been interested in this little discussed phenomenon.  Crescendi and diminuendi are actually three dimensional phenomena; sometimes they come forward, towards somewhere, or backwards, away; other times they stretch outwards or constrict inwards.  I find that very few people seem to recognize the difference. 

In some pieces, when a crescendo should spread outward rather than just forward (think three dimensional spaces), a forward-crescendo will sound muscular, aggressive, and out of place.  I commented on one such occurence in the Audition Room, in a fellow's otherwise lovely "Cygne" transcribed by Godowsky.  His crescendo wasn't three dimensional, it was just coming straight forward; it should have spread outward.  A small detail but of infinite use!

Walter Ramsey

The first time I read your post about the three-dimensional nature of a crescendo, I thought, well, yes, that's an amazing concept.

But the more I think about it, the less I really understand what you are saying.

You don't mean, of course, creating this dimensional effect by altering the tempo as well as the volume, do you?  Whenever, as a beginner, I would slightly slow diminuendi or speed up crescendi, my teachers would tear their hair out.

Could you explain this further, maybe using some other image for me.  I just can't quite grasp the concept.

For example, what do you mean by the crescendo "spreading outward"?  Do you mean that the volume, of course, gradually increases, but that, additionally, the intensity of the expression also increases?

[tengstrand]

I don't think he means that one should alter tempo, I know for sure that the teacher in the video doesn't mean that. It's more a matter of not thinking too much the-crescendo-is-going-to-exactly-HERE.
More like the crescendo is giving some more "oxygen" to the phrase than a clear direction.

[slobone]

Really you're almost always doing a crescendo or decrescendo of some kind, except perhaps for fast toccata-like passages where you make a point of playing as evenly as possible. The rest of the time, every note is moving in one direction or another.

I remember years ago, when I had spent a lot of time learning a Chopin waltz, and was having trouble with the crescendos and diminuendos. So I listed to a recording by Rubinstein to hear what he did with them. To my surprise, it never really sounded like he was doing anything with the dynamics. Instead, he just created a series of phrases, and each note found its proper place within the phrase. Theoretically, I suppose he was increasing and decreasing the volume, but you couldn't catch him doing it.

[daniloperusina]

I enjoyed those two clips a lot! Thank you for the effort you put into all of this mr Tengstrand!


I seriously don't understand the criticism. Except that it's a tad difficult to hear what he's saying at times.
There is no such thing as "instant improvement" or, for that matter, "instant interpretation". There is only "instant coffe", and we all know how that tastes...
It seems very obvious to me that mr Sztern is avoiding this trap very skillfully. He could have said "Now, play the intro at half the tempo....that's better!", or any other/more detailed 'instructions' for that matter. Instead, he tries to make her improve her own understanding. He gives her different pictures and waits to see how her imagination reacts to them. I think a teacher can do no better than that! I think the best teaching on this level is to give the student the Question, not the Answer. Because the very act of thinking about the Question means that you develop. And when you're through thinking, you give your teacher your answer, but he shakes his head and only gives you yet another question. And like this it goes on and on.
Until one day you realise that there are no answers, only questions. Then you're ready for your debut!:)

(Sorry for the very poor pseudo-philosophy!)

[tengstrand]

Slobone...a crescendo does not have to have a one-dimensional direction. You will limit yourself if you think that, I promise.

Daniloperusina, I can't tell you how much I agree. With music as with much else, the wiser you get, the more you understand that there are more angles to problems, questions etc. So, paradoxally, the more you know, the less clear answers there are. This is why I have a hard time with teachers who are dead sure that "their way" is the only one.

To quote ( I think) Beethoven: "You have yet to learn a lot to realize how little you know". Oh Yes.

[ramseytheii]

The first time I read your post about the three-dimensional nature of a crescendo, I thought, well, yes, that's an amazing concept.

But the more I think about it, the less I really understand what you are saying.

You don't mean, of course, creating this dimensional effect by altering the tempo as well as the volume, do you?  Whenever, as a beginner, I would slightly slow diminuendi or speed up crescendi, my teachers would tear their hair out.

Could you explain this further, maybe using some other image for me.  I just can't quite grasp the concept.

For example, what do you mean by the crescendo "spreading outward"?  Do you mean that the volume, of course, gradually increases, but that, additionally, the intensity of the expression also increases?

I'm glad you asked that, because I am not totally sure how to answer.  My ears tell me there is an appreciable difference in crescendos, and my brain fills in the blank by imagining them having height, depth, and girth as demanded by the music.

Think of how many elements go into making an effective crescendo: use of weight; type of attack; subtle tempo adjustments; voicing; a general sense of timing.  Some mysterious combination of these elements can produce a crescendo which is not like the crescendo of an airplane in takeoff, but rather like the filling of a balloon with water.  The airplane goes forward and up (let's not consider the element of accelerating here), but the balloon gets broader and spreads out (by broader I don't mean slowing down).

Perhaps if we took serious time to analyze all these elements, we could figure out what is the objective combination to produce different types of crescendi.  But in the meantime, I would encourage you to try and listen to great pianists with this sort of thing in mind.


On further consideration maybe the idea has something to do with the outcome of the music, and the implications of the crescendo.  Certain crescendi have the effect of preparing a climactic moment, and others don't.  In the audition room, a pianist posted a video of Le Cygne, arranged by Godowsky.  It seemed to me that his crescendo about 2/3rds of the way through (I'm just recalling from memory) was threatening a climactic moment, which in my mind would disturb the character of the swan and the lake (Le cygne de Paule marchant sur le flots...   In fact the music gave me the image of a swan spreading its noble wings (girth) which were reflected gloriously in the water (depth).

Sorry to explain this so ineffectually.  It's one of those things that you can tell there is a difference, but it's very hard to put your finger on it.

Walter Ramsey

[general disarray]

Ah hah!  No, no, your explanation works for me.  Completely.

Thanks!

[slobone]

Slobone...a crescendo does not have to have a one-dimensional direction. You will limit yourself if you think that, I promise.

Well, that's not what I was trying to say. I guess I'll rephrase it (and agree with some of what's been said) by saying the word crescendo is hopelessly inadequate to express what's really going on in a musical performance. Like rubato, it's only a starting point for understanding, that ends up being not especially helpful. And beginners can really be misled by it.

If you want to say there's more than one dimension, or there are different types of crescendos, that's fine. But I don't know if that's all that helpful either.

For me, playing the piano is about phrases that are played by voices. It's as if your fingers were an orchestra and you were the conductor. Sometimes the voices are clearly differentiated, other times they blend into a whole. But they never completely lose their individuality.

Let's take a simple Chopin waltz or mazurka, where the left hand is going oom pah pah, oom pah pah. But already, if you play the "ooms" by themselves, you will see they form a melody of sorts. It may be rudimentary, and not the sort of thing you find yourself humming, but each of the notes relates to the others. There is a direction to them. One of the ooms is the most important, and that's the one the others lead up to or away from.

And even the "pahs". If there are two of them, they do something different. You don't play them the same. One of the pahs is more interesting than the other.

So already you have 3 separate voices: the ooms, the pahs, and the melody in the right hand. And each voice is divided into successive phrases, whose beginnings and endings may or may not coincide in the different voices. Within each phrase, you rise to the climax of the phrase, then descend.

But "rising" and "descending" can be accomplished in many ways. By getting louder, certainly, but sometimes by getting softer. Or by accelerating, then retarding. Or perhaps by articulation: accents, staccato, marcato, slurring, whatever.

So it's only in the process of deciding how to shape these phrases that crescendos and diminuendos come into the picture. Regardless of what the composer has written in the score: that's an essential clue, but not adequate to tell you what to do.

And that's without even going into your understanding of the place of the phrase within the overall architecture of the piece, what feeling Chopin meant you to convey, what feeling you want to convey, how you feel that day, how the audience is responding, etc.

Most musicians, I think, hear what they want the music to sound like in their minds, then try to create that sound with their fingers. (A process that definitely includes a knowledge of what their colleagues have done or are doing with the same piece.) It's actually easier to approach it from this end (although in practice it's not easy at all).

All that is much more important than the mechanics of "here I have to make a crescendo or a diminuendo." Which no amount of words can ever describe adequately anyway.

And PS: that's the difference between an amateur and a professional. A professional (hopefully, although there are some surprising exceptions) automatically plays this way, even when he/she is sight-reading or improvising. An amateur has to laboriously construct it from first principles, and rarely succeeds in getting it right. It's like trained actors, who automatically start creating a believable character every time they read from a script, or artists, who incorporate perspective every time they sketch something, without having to give it any conscious thought.

And also why "virtuoso" music is such a challenge: anybody (who's graduated from conservatory) can cram the correct number of notes into each second, but to really say something meaningful through it can only be accomplished by a handful of artists in any generation. Which is why there are so few Liszt performances worth listening to...

[ramseytheii]

Musical talent is a mysterious and in many ways inexplicable thing.  Musicians have the power of recreating with tones, all sorts of things that suggest characters, images, narratives, emotions, without actually being those things.  It is usually not clear to musicians themselves, how they do it.  Most probably could not list the exact combination of elements which you mention, such as tempo adjustments, or articulations, etc., which they use to create characters.

That's why images are so important.  The purpose of the image of dimensions, was to enlarge mental conception of crescendo.  It is in fact useful in the sense that it is something we can conceive of already without technical flaws, and can use that mental picture as a way to achieve something which is very hard to explain in technical terms, and probably more confusing.

Any one image may be helpful to one, and it may be helpful to another; and you hint that you have your own system by saying you imagine an orchestra with a conductor when playing the piano.  I don't think anything you said was wrong, but I don't think it is in disagreement with anything else posted here.

Walter Ramsey

[slobone]

I don't think anything you said was wrong, but I don't think it is in disagreement with anything else posted here.

Most likely not  But I enjoyed saying it anyway...

I'm partly reacting to clips I've been watching on Youtube and elsewhere, where it's not hard to find a whole slew of performers, some quite famous, who don't seem to "get it." It's especially painful to see talented amateurs who seem to be spending all their energy in the wrong direction. One wonders how much of the blame is attributable to their teachers...

[rachfan]

Yes, a picture or image is worth not only a thousand words, but a thousand musical notes as well. 

I recall years ago, for example, studying Brahms' Rhapsody, Op. 79, No. 2.  There is a section that begins mezza voce and is to be played with an air of mystery.  The writing is very sparse, so Brahms doesn't give many clues.  Other than the notes and dynamic, I was having difficulty trying to discern what in the world I should be doing or conveying there, and how to put it over to an audience.  My teacher at that time suggested the picture for me: "Play it in a way that the audience will leave their seats and wander up on stage to gather around you to figure out exactly what you're doing."  As soon as he said that, I got it!   I didn't need playing instructions, but rather a scenario.

[tengstrand]

I agree with everything in the issues of movement by Rhamsey and Slobodan. And I agree with GD Rhamsey, ineffectual your explanation is not at all!

It's interesting though to take the question if music always moves a step further: it moves, sure, but not necessarily in a strong way forward, but kind of "inside" a block. Esa-Pekka Salonen's Dichotomie was very much about that, as he says himself. On one hand, there is energy WITHIN a block of music, which has no clear direction...and then there is the side where music is clearly built on momentum, one part giving reason to the next to arrive. We can think of Schnabel talking about a "mirrored echo" in Schubert, when the "echo" comes before the real statement, thus the music is almost moving backwards. Again, for that we have to take a step back and see that all the little movements in music creates a whole that doesn't necessarily move.

OK, THAT was ineffectual, but what the feck.

Both Schnabel and the RachFan story ( where the key is, I think, that his teacher made him NOT think of direction with too much consciousness) ) makes me remember when I once played for Arthur's son, Karl Ullrich Schnabel. He was over 90, and absolutely fantastic both as a person and as a teacher. I played the Beethoven Funeral March Sonata and in the funeral march I played the funeral rythm in a sad, heavy way. And he said "Rrrrememberrr...it is a HERRRO that died!" Until this day, it's all I need to think about when I play that movement.
A couple more vids are up.

[slobone]

Well I guess if he's Rhamsey I can be Slobodan... Definitely no relation...

Anyway, funereal pieces are always tricky. Remember first of all that a funeral march is a MARCH -- people ought to be able to walk to it. So right away that limits how slow you can be.

And it's not necessarily true that the more mournfully you play, the more sobs you'll squeeze out. Sometimes it's more effective to keep things moving a little.

I recently found a Youtube clip by Richter of Ravel's Pavanne for a Dead Princess which is possibly his worst performance (shall we start a poll?). It sort of sounds more like he's the one who's dying... or the audience, they can't stop coughing. It's a tie.

[tengstrand]

oops, Slobone, I mean...sorry. It was very late when I wrote that. It's hard to remember the names here since I see only me using my real one

[tengstrand]

I just listened to Richter's Pavane, it's certainly not the achievement that brought him immortality among pianists but I could still find some good things to enjoy I must say. The coughing debate in the comments is a highly recommended read. In not moving the music forward I can also nominate Ravel's own version of Oiseaux Tristes.

[daro]

Thank you, Mr. Tengstrand, for posting those videos. As for the criticisms, I think some people get so hung up on technique that they forget that music is an art as well as a craft. With students like the ones in the videos, the craft is pretty much a given, so it's good that they start focusing on how to perceive a piece as a coherent, organic whole, rather than, as you put it, just some passages strung together. Sometimes this just takes talking since I think the student is really not there to learn how to hit the notes at the right time but to learn about expressing an artistic vision.

On a side note, I also wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed the performance you and your wife gave at Cal State back in March. The interplay between the two of you was so beautifully balanced that the effect created out there in the audience was absolutely extraordinary. (Besides, how many times have you finished your performance and then been able to say that you really struck lightning).

yd