What's achievable?

[posteroto]

Hi fellas,

I'm a piano beginner, aged 22, who has been playing for half a year now. One question that bugs me often is: How far can I get? In the meaning of: What can I play by just learning privately (with a piano teacher) and without studying music.

Asking my piano teacher about this he said "(E.g.) Some Beethoven sonatas are definitely achievable after years of playing while others are unreachable. The sonatas with the three digit op numbers are more or less out of scope."
Talking about Schubert impromptus he said "all of them are semi-professional to professional pieces which need a lot of effort to be played".

The reason I come up with this post now is that I just looked at the Scriabin etudes/preludes listing on this page for the first time and saw that all of them are marked as 8+! Taking that and the opinion of my piano teacher as the truth would mean that I'd probably never be able to play any of Scriabin without studying music (which I'm not going to).

Of course I don't expect to ever play like professional pianists and I don't expect to be able to play all of the piano literature, but knowing that I can never play a huge part of the works of the great composers is a little demotivating.

What is your opinion on this?

Thanks much for your comments!

[oscarr111111]

Don't buy too much into classical mythology, pretty much anything is possible to play if you invest enough time into it, maybe not at a professional level but definitely possible.

[keypeg]

I don't quite understand what you mean by "studying music".  If you are with a teacher, you are studying music, and he would be introducing concepts as you move along.

[term]

Don't buy too much into classical mythology, pretty much anything is possible to play if you invest enough time into it, maybe not at a professional level but definitely possible.

Exactly.
But what's professional? You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and therefore you can play any piece just as good as an international pianist. The thing is, if playing the piano is all you do, you might as well become a professional pianist then, since you need to devote most of your time for becoming that good.

[oscarr111111]

Exactly.
But what's professional? You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and therefore you can play any piece just as good as an international pianist. The thing is, if playing the piano is all you do, you might as well become a professional pianist then, since you need to devote most of your time for becoming that good.

I used the wrong term really, I think its possible to play at a professional level but I don't think its possible to play better than someone who started playing at 4 and played consistently since.  Thats really just a matter of hours invested though, its possible to learn to play as naturally and many people have done so.

[posteroto]

Thank you for your replies.

By "studying music" I mean studying it in a university specialized into art, so full time studies. My teacher says that you just can't learn as much in your spare time as you can learn there and that the knowledge you get in the university is important because without this lot of theory you won't be able to understand the music and therefore can't play it well because you don't know what the composer wanted it to be like.

Your comments are encouraging!

[posteroto]

In the initial posting in this thread I mentioned that ALL Scriabin pieces on this site are marked as 8+, but looking at the sheets I get the impression that this is the default value and hasn't been looked at really.
https://www.pianostreet.com/piano_sheet_music/Scriabin-815/Prelude-op-16-4-E-flat-Minor.html
With my novice knowledge I understand that this piece requires very much expression, but how could this be a 8+ which is 2 above moonlight sonata?

[keypeg]

Why worry about it at all?  Find out what specific skills and knowledge you need in order to play the piano and the music well, in which order, find a teacher who will get you there if you don't have one already, and then go for it.  Who cares about a number indicating a categorization?  What specifically do you need to know to be able to play that particular piece?  How do you get there?

[syncope]

I don't think it's a question if you can play those last Beethoven sonatas depending studying music at the university or not, but the fact that you started playing piano late. Just like language you just learn it better when you're young. The natural understanding of music and it's meanings and cadans. But... The positive thing is that you are a mature person and you'll grasp things faster than kids, so you're process will be faster going through the stages of learning piano.

I do think it is a good investment if you have a teacher spend 15-30 minutes every week specifically for theory and solfege (ear training) and general music - if you really want to play the Schubert and Beethoven at its greatist some time. And it ís a great investment, because it's extraordinary to get into this music and know more about it and figure it out through the months studying it!
This can be done by your teacher, or you could take a teacher privately especially for that (maybe a student from the university, I'm sure they'd love to do that). Talk about music, listen to a lot of them (concerts, CDs), do some eartraining games, composing. That will take care of the learning about the background of music to understand it better, no need for the University of you don't want that.

I think you will be able to play everything. If you listen to a lot of classical music, have it as a normal thing in your life and you're musically gifted I'm sure you'll be able to "understand" the more difficult music and it's depth, and play Schubert and Beethoven with much care.

(I'm just talking about the musicality in music, because technically you can play anything you want, all the Beethoven sonatas, we're just talking about the extra fun it gives you to actually emotionally play it satisfactory for yourself)

Just out of curiosity... I have a 17 year old student who also just started a half year ago. What kind of pieces are you playing, how much have you learned already in the past 6 months?

[keypeg]

Just like language you just learn it better when you're young

Could that myth please disappear?  The very statement that something cannot be done because of some purported age-related handicap, a hardening of the thought process or whatever, is the greatest handicap.

Approaches may be wrong.  That starts with the internal process.  Externally, language learning in particular is often done in an academic or school setting.  I'm in my 50's.  I'm learning my 6th language more easily and fluidly than I did my fifth language over 30 years ago because now I know how to approach it.

I read some teacher "advising" adults planning to study music that they must be "realistic" that they will not be able to "catch up" to a seven year old.  Having just done a practical exam after 6 months of lessons, preceded by a seven year old who had taken two years to get there, I knew this was false.  But what if I had read that information BEFORE starting?  Would I have dared?  Would I have aimed toward the handicap that I was supposed to have?

Enough already!  People should not be crippled, nor cripple themselves, because of some prejudgement of what they will not be able to do.  If there are tendencies involving adults, why not see what the cause is, and then go toward it?

[tompilk]

there is hope for me to play the alkan concerto some time in my life yet! I've probably only got another ~60 years (I'm 18) so I think I'd better get practising!

[posteroto]

keypeg,
you're right of course, I was just wondering about the foundation of those levels specified here.

syncope,
you're definitely right about my age, I really started playing late. On the positive side I most likely have more decades left than I left unused, heh.

Your suggestion for theory training is good and my teacher has proposed that, too. I rejected that because of the additional costs, but I'm reconsidering it. Speaking of my teacher, he is a studied musician and ex pianist so he is very skilled. He is my private teacher and not part of my university studies or something similar.

I started with very short pieces of a piano training book you probably don't know (not available in English) 5 months ago to be precise, then went on with some easy pieces of "Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach" and I'm now practicing Clementi's Op 36 No 1. I have to note however that we didn't study the pieces to perfection in the sense of perfection possible at that level, but relatively quickly went on so that I get to know new stuff. We will continue with more Sonatinas after this one I guess. He once mentioned that I could probably play an "easy" Beethoven sonata soon, but I still think he must have had a different student in mind when saying that because there's not a single Beethoven sonata I would consider myself good enough for and I wouldn't learn one now because when I do, I really want to be ready for it as I really appreciate Beethoven. If I can play my first sonata well in maybe 2 or 3 years I will be more than happy. I'm not impatient, I just want to know where my limits would be.

Playing the great Beethoven sonatas (no. 27, 32, 19 and others), the Schubert impromptus and other works in the far future is my goal and apparently you guys think it's possible.

Thanks again to you all for replying!

[keypeg]

It sounds as though you have a good teacher.  I studied theory mostly on my own and had my teacher check me and help where needed.  The problem is how to best use your time, and the expense of extra classes, as you said.

[slobone]

I think it's silly to start placing limitations on what you can play, if you've only been doing it 6 months. University study is NOT necessary to become a very good amateur pianist, especially if you're only 22 now. I assume you're not thinking about becoming a professional, that would be a whole different route.

There's nothing freakishly difficult technically about the late Beethoven sonatas, in fact I'm pretty sure the Appassionata is harder. But they require what's called "musical maturity", meaning, I suppose, that you can't just play the notes as written but have to really have an understanding about what Beethoven's intentions were when he wrote them. Listening to recordings is a great help here.

I would say, just go ahead and play pieces that interest you. Keep ratcheting up the technical level of the pieces. And if your teacher really said all those discouraging things, I might keep my eyes open for another one who would be more understanding with an adult student.

[nyonyo]

As usual, I have totally different opinion on the notion that you can learn everything if you put your time and effort.

We are human being and bound my physical and mental ability. Twenty two is actuall not too late. What determine your progress is your talent first, and then your effort. How hard you try if you do not have good coordination or other musical abilities, you won't go too far. If you do have the talent, then if you practice hard you will progress nicely.

You have to assess your own ability. You have been lived for 22 years, observed your past. Were you a person who usually broke the odd? If not, do not expect too much with your musical life too. You cannot really change your life habit easily. If everybody can change thing easily, the world will be totally different, could be better or worse.

But again 22 is young, try your best and you will discover your ability. Playing Beethoven Sonata is not really that difficult, but playing Chopin etudes is. Schubert Impromtus are playable for normal people, but you may not be able to play like Horowitz. But it, for sure, will amaze your friends if you play infront of them.

Having a teacher who is willing to help you to attain your goal is also important. There are so many piano teachers, so if you do not like taking lesson from one teacher, you should not stick around too long... Just quit and find a new one. Especially if the teacher is abusive (verbally).

[keypeg]

Were you a person who usually broke the odd? If not, do not expect too much with your musical life too

I disagree entirely.  "Breaking the odd" sounds as though artistic progress is some exclusively internal thing that either you have or you don't have - you have this "odds-breaking character, and you have talent.

No, sorry, there is opportunity, and being shown the way.  Some don't get that when they're young.  It's not about "habit".

Yes, here is such a thing as talent and innate musicality.  But by itself that is not enough.

When you study with a good teacher, you learn how to play, how to approach music, how to approach the instrument, and your "habits" change through the training if you apply yourself.

Nor is it true that we are created like hot wax that cools and hardens, so that when we reach 18, or 20, or 25 we are stuck in some kind of permanent shape.

The OP is in his 20's.  I'm in my 50's, and I tell you that the hot wax idea is a myth.

[posteroto]

Please don't get me wrong, I like my teacher. In most lessons he says that my progress is good and that I should continue like I do because everything's fine. His way of teaching suits my personality the best because I'm sensitive when it comes to criticism, especially in a world new to me like music.

I think he was just meaning to be honest with me in this regard which is actually better for a teacher than to promise goals unrealistic in his point of view. He doesn't forbid his students to play more difficult pieces either, in a recent student concert one played Schubert impromptu op 90 no 4 and another played claire de lune, both have been playing the piano for about 10 years.

The time I spend on studying the piano isn't enough for becoming a great player even if I was very young because I only practice 1,5 - 2 hours a day, but this could get a little more when I start playing more lengthy pieces. I have no intentions of becoming a professional, but I would like to reach a level which allows me to play truly great music with joy and not having to say "Oh I can't play this" to huge parts of classical literature.

Thanks for your encouragement!

[keypeg]

Well, you can choose to spend more time practicing.  Length of pieces should not be the criterion.  What you practice, strictly speaking, is not the piece, but the elements of musicianship that you must hone for all pieces.  Do try it starting now, emphasizing a particular skill or item in the music that needs perfecting and making that your goal for much of the practicing.  Double your practice time doing that, give yourself 3 months, and see what happens.  How might your perspectives change?  What questions might you find yourself asking your teacher, which would lead to what new skills?

[oscarr111111]

Talent / Effort

Two completely identical and interchangeable concepts.

The time I spend on studying the piano isn't enough for becoming a great player even if I was very young because I only practice 1,5 - 2 hours a day, but this could get a little more when I start playing more lengthy pieces. I have no intentions of becoming a professional, but I would like to reach a level which allows me to play truly great music with joy and not having to say "Oh I can't play this" to huge parts of classical literature.

Thanks for your encouragement!

Thats plenty of time to become a great player, how effectively you use your practice time is more important than how many hours you put in, 1-2 well spent hours a day is definitely enough.

[mike_lang]

in a recent student concert one played Schubert impromptu op 90 no 4 and another played claire de lune, both have been playing the piano for about 10 years.

I really don't think you have to wait ten years (or even five) to play either of those pieces.

[posteroto]

That's a good point, the effectiveness of practicing. My teacher doesn't give that much advice on spending practice time and I often wonder (or rather doubt) If I practice effectively.

I spend like around 20 minutes a day doing finger training exercices, you know, playing with four fingers while one constantly presses a key down, e.g. d is pressed down and with the rest you play a c g e and similar things. The rest of the time I spend on practicing the current one or two pieces my teacher gave to me. First of course by learning the notes hands split and the continuing with both hands and in the end playing it better and faster. Most of the time I have one which I "refine" and one which I'm learning the notes of, like e.g. last week refining mvt 1 of Clementi's sonatine and learning mvt 2.

Can you recommend alternative ways to spend the time or do you know good online guides I could check out? Probably I should study some musical theory on my own as well? Asking my teacher about books he said it's difficult to recommend any because most explain particular topics which would be too in-depth for me at this point and the general books don't teach too much.

[keypeg]

Posteroto, could you begin by asking your teacher specifically about practicing.  Schedule a lesson just for that, if it seems good.  You want to know how to practice, what to practice within working on pieces to give you the skills.

In terms of theory, what is it that you currently know?  Do you have the general rudiments down pat: notes, meter (the difference between simple and compound meter and how they work - their nature)?  Genres and history (romantic music, baroque, how is a gavotte a gavotte (dance) ) as a general thing?

I went down exactly this avenue last year, redefining my studies and what I was willing to learn (because not all adult students are).

[slobone]

One of my pet peeves about most teachers is that they don't spend enough time teaching you how to practice. After all, your lesson is only an hour a week -- most of your time at the piano takes place when you're practicing by yourself.

My teachers would give me general guidelines on practicing, but I had trouble applying them when I got home. What I could never get them to do is to demonstrate exactly what to do, by turning at least one whole lesson into a practice session. That is, I would practice in front of them, and they would tell me when I was doing something wrong or just wasting time. This I always thought would be more valuable than "performing" a piece when I got to my lesson.

[keypeg]

I was lucky in that a family member was far ahead of me and heading toward a professional career and we talked about these things.  I also had a friend who was a professional musician, who talked about his approach - and another expert who helped.

Practicing to me is not just a case of demonstrating what I do in front of a teacher.  In fact, I am not capable of demonstrating "how I practice".    That is because for me practicing is a mental process and that is what constitutes the "how".

For example, when approaching a piece I will analyze it, work on one aspect of it - say having the choreography of the fingering right, note value, meter.  I may have difficulty with tempo, and there might be something within tempo that I need to address.

So I will plan what my general goals are within the week: what I'm practicing might evolve along that plan from day to day: the tempo issue, for example.  Then within the practice session I may decide to first work on the choreography of the piece.  Then I might want to switch to working on tempo matters.  I'm not primarily a piano student so it's hard to translate this into piano by example.

But what I learned in "practicing" was to set goals, work toward goals, find how I would approach this - what is actually happening is hidden from the observer because it is mental.  It might even happen that I'm practicing, something strikes me, and I end up sitting on the sofa for ten minutes, or taking a long walk while pacing off something rhythmic mentally.  There is no way you can "demonstrate" this to a teacher. 

[edward938]

I touched a piano for the first time when I was 19, so I have some idea what lies ahead for you.  Of the
hundreds of things I could think of to say, I've settled on this little project.  You could learn a lot from it.  Take the Rachmaninoff prelude in A flat major.  Its metronome marking is 108 half notes per minute, or 216 quarter notes, or 432 eighth notes per minute.  Turn to the last two pages, and in your mind make them over into a sepaarate Intermezzo, whose indications are "adagio, 40 quarter notes per second".  Play it at that tempo as softly, as sensitively as possible, but in strict time.  No rubato.  Allow yourself to feel the keys and sense the hammers striking the keys.  Pay total attention to the
sound.  From this little study you will begin to see for yourself the role of velocity in piano playing.  In
a relatively short time you will have complete control over this and you relax a bit and introduce some
interpretation of your own.  Soon you will feel the urge to increase the tempo.  When you do, step it up only to 42.  And so on, little by little over a period of weeks, or months.  But all very beautiful.  After a while you'll see how to play the rest of the piece. 

[keypeg]

"adagio, 40 quarter notes per second".

That's incredibly fast - is that what you meant to say?

[mike_lang]

That's incredibly fast - is that what you meant to say?

I think elbows might have to be involved...

[edward938]

Well, I meant to type "forty beats per minute", which really would be adagio.  I have to apologize.  I was blown away by the very high quality of most of the comments on this issue, and wanted to contribute something that might be helpful to someone starting out as an adult.  I see that I also made
 a few typos.  Sorry for them, too. 

[edward938]

You can see this isn't my day.  Let me try one more time, and then I'll give up.  "Forty quarter notes
per minute".

[mike_lang]

You can see this isn't my day.  Let me try one more time, and then I'll give up.  "Forty quarter notes
per minute".

We're just giving you a hard time. 

[healdie]

I do not think that age has anything to do with learning, I only started a year ago (i am 16) and i have nearly caught up with most people who started much younger on average people do one grade exam a year (in the Uk anyway i don't know about other exam boards and countriess) and i am taking grade 5 later this year which is were most people are at 15 anyway so in one year of practice i have caught up those others years, what i am saying is if you have a healthy attitude to learning and are dedicated then you will learn