Impostor Syndrome: Anyone else have it?

[dnephi]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_Syndrome

Supposedly, it's very common in academia.  Essentially, one fails to internalize one's accomplishments and feels that they are an impostor or a fraud even though they really did do the work.

[Petter]

Why not just call it low self esteem?

[chopininov]

Apparently that is no longer PC.

[dnephi]

If you read the article, self esteem is what it's called when you don't have the qualifications.  Impostor Syndrome is what happens when exceptional people have such problems in spite of their accomplishments.

I'm surprised that neither of you managed to read it before commenting, especially in such a condescending way.  For clarity's sake:

Courtesy of https://www.counseling.caltech.edu/articles/The%20Imposter%20Syndrome.htm:
"The imposter syndrome is associated with highly achieving, highly successful people.   This makes imposter feelings somewhat different from the concept of “low self-esteem” because there is a discrepancy between the actual achievement and the person’s feelings about the achievement that may not be present in low self-esteem"

[chopininov]

I read the articles. I still see it as another form of low self-esteem. No need to classify it as a syndrome.

[term]

I agree, no need for that. But thats just me, a special classification is not...a bad thing. Some people who achieved a lot find that it is part of their achievement to understand how little they achieved in comparison to wishes and dreams of perfection, ideals, own or external standards and requirements.

[tds]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_Syndrome

Supposedly, it's very common in academia.  Essentially, one fails to internalize one's accomplishments and feels that they are an impostor or a fraud even though they really did do the work.

and what syndrome is it called for the opposite kind: the one who does little/no work but thinks and brags that s/he has done alot. OR the one who does little/no work but thinks other people's work are copies of his ideas?

[dnephi]

Is that a psychological issue or just dishonesty?

[tds]

Is that a psychological issue or just dishonesty?

hmm...well, can psychological issue cause dishonesty? sure, it can. now, can pathological lies exist without any psychological reasonings? unlikely (if we think of psychology in the broadest term ). but really i don't know what to tell you, dnephi, that's why i asked my question in the first place.

-but really, i can't see why the same question you raised cannot be first applied to the original subject matter. it has got some answer, doesn't it? will mine have some too?

[pies]

Anyone else have it?  Are you saying that you yourself have the syndrome?  You're not a particularly successful or respectable person in my eyes.

[rachfan]

If you know someone who has a doctoral degree (either a PhD--the academic degree aimed at research, development of theory, and teaching--or one with a professional doctorate (EdD, DBA, PsyD, DMA etc.) for the practitioner concerned with the practical application of theory in the field, ask this question: "Do you sometimes feel like an imposter."  If the "expert" is honest, he/she will grow quiet and reflective momentarily and reply, "Yes, sometimes."  Why?  Because knowledge is simply so vast that everyone with a doctoral degree soon realizes that the more and more they learn, how little they really know!  That's a truly humbling experience.  I know that first hand (I have a DBA, or Doctor of Business Administration).  Does it give me low self esteem?  No, but it certainly does give me a starkly realistic view of the boundaries of my competence in being a so-called expert.  My career was not in academia, by the way, but in management in the business world and nonprofits.  (I recently retired as a Chief Operating Officer.)
 

[thalberg]

knowledge is simply so vast that everyone with a doctoral degree soon realizes that the more and more they learn, how little they really know! 

I second this.  I have a doctorate in music, and I can say that the further along I progressed in school the more I realized I did not know. 

I would also add this to the impostor syndrome:  Your insecurity is the *reason* for your accomplishment.  You feel you are less smart than those around you, so when given a task, you work extra hard to "cover your shortcomings" and end up doing a much better job than the average person.  Because you feel like an impostor, ergo you excel.

[dnephi]

Anyone else have it?  Are you saying that you yourself have the syndrome?  You're not a particularly successful or respectable person in my eyes.

I would argue that an 18-year old doctoral student at a top 10 institution in Biophysics is a fairly successful individual.  I could provide a CV if you require.

Cheers,

Daniel

[pies]

post yo CV

[thalbergmad]

I would argue that an 18-year old doctoral student at a top 10 institution in Biophysics is a fairly successful individual. 

Hmm, i don't think you are suffering from this syndrome.

Thal

[Petter]

If you know someone who has a doctoral degree (either a PhD--the academic degree aimed at research, development of theory, and teaching--or one with a professional doctorate (EdD, DBA, PsyD, DMA etc.) for the practitioner concerned with the practical application of theory in the field, ask this question: "Do you sometimes feel like an imposter."  If the "expert" is honest, he/she will grow quiet and reflective momentarily and reply, "Yes, sometimes."  Why?  Because knowledge is simply so vast that everyone with a doctoral degree soon realizes that the more and more they learn, how little they really know!  That's a truly humbling experience.  I know that first hand (I have a DBA, or Doctor of Business Administration).  Does it give me low self esteem?  No, but it certainly does give me a starkly realistic view of the boundaries of my competence in being a so-called expert.  My career was not in academia, by the way, but in management in the business world and nonprofits.  (I recently retired as a Chief Operating Officer.)
 

But would you say you suffered from an impostor syndrome?

[rachfan]

On one level I don't believe I have the impostor syndrome because I understand how little I really know in the grand scale of theory, two advanced degrees and 40 years of management experience aside.  Also I'm open and honest about my limitations.  For example, my expertise is in organizational studies.  So if I were to be in a meeting and detailed questions were to arise about accounting rules and banking relations, I would defer to those better qualified and more knowledgeable in those areas.

On another level, yes, I have momentarily felt like an impostor.  For example, when I was on adjunct faculty (evening division) at a college and lecturing on principles of management, I could sense that there were some undergrads in the classroom who ASSUMED that because I had advanced degrees that I must know all the literature, theories, and  have all the answers.  Especially during the first class I'd get that uneasy impostor feeling.  To relieve that unease, I'd tell the students flat out that I didn't have all the answers, that we were a learning community, and as such, we'd be learning from one another and together.  Once I could sense that they then saw me as a mortal human being rather than the experts' expert, my feeling of being something less than their initial expectation--that is, an impostor--would quickly fade away thankfully.  To make it dissipate, my approach was to frankly treat it as a vulnerability, put it out on the table and deal with it.  It always worked well. 

Let me give you this insight too:  PhD programs aimed at research and teaching require the student to be very highly specialized, and when a dissertation is written, it's in an incredibly narrow area of inquiry, but also very deeply and thoroughly researched.  Those doing practitioner doctorates, DBA, DMA, etc.  focus much more on the broad scope of knowledge in the discipline.  Even a concentration is still very broad.  So here's an exaggeration, but it will make my point.  The PhD (who is a practicing scholar) ends up knowing everything there is to know about virtually nothing, while the DBA, DMA etc. (who are scholarly practitioners) end up knowing a little bit about everything.   An exaggeration to be sure, but there is some truth to it.  Either way, be it a lack of breadth OR depth of knowledge, either kind of doctoral "expert" can often feel uncomfortable in certain situations, which can naturally lead to being momentarily haunted by the the impostor syndrome.  That's why it's useful for practicing scholars and scholarly practitioners to collaborate and consult with one another--they help fill in the knowledge gaps in each other's training.

For those who are too egotistical or insecure to openly share the vulnerability of the limits of their knowledge, they probably develop permanent impostor syndrome in my opinion, which is sad.  On the other hand, those who have developed an approach to deal with it will still be momentarily confronted by the syndrome to be sure, but will resolve it openly and effectively in the circumstances and move on.             

[pies]

Wow, Daniel is a total NERD

[tds]

Wow, Daniel is a total NERD

is it good or bad?

[cherub_rocker1979]

Wow, Daniel is a total NERD

I think there's a lot of nerdy people here.  Is that a problem?

[rc]

That's a good way to describe it Rachfan!  That sounds realistic, I would just call it a case of false assumption on the part of others.  Similar to if I happen to make a really good first impression on somebody and they start to assume I'm completely awesome in every way.

That's why I make a point of acting like a total screwball from time to time   So I tell myself.

Anyways I completely understand, I also am way to modest to accept my own awesomeness

[rachfan]

Hi rc,

Yeah, I think that others through implicitly projecting expectation, can trigger the impostor syndrome in the "expert", who then senses and begins to worry about it.  You're "total screwball" approach is creative, breaks the ice, shows you're normal (if there is such a thing), and enables you to resolve the inner concern about being misperceived as being more than you can rationally be.  I like it!   

[pies]

a

[zheer]

 Your insecurity is the *reason* for your accomplishment.  You feel you are less smart than those around you, so when given a task, you work extra hard to "cover your shortcomings" and end up doing a much better job than the average person. 

  I'm sure, I've met these sorts of people, and they usually make me feel inferior. Not because of their achievement but because of their way of thinking.

can I add that some very accomplished people are successful due to their confidence and security, these are the people I like the most, not those who they have to climb higher than the rest to feel good about themselves , to cover their insecurity.

Ever wounderd why some people are great to be with, and make others feel secure and good about themselves.