Trill between 1-3... and practice

[8426]

I haven't posted in a  while...i decided to quit whining and apply myself however..no matter how much i practice i can't do this.

in measure 15 of the so-called sonata "facile" of mozart there is a trill, the sheet itself say to use 4-3 but after trying that a long time....you get the idea...i switched to 1-3 which worked a little bit better and so started on that. now probably a month after i switched i can't do it. i see 8 year olds on youtube that can pull this off...

i've already seen chang about forearm rotation and i still don't understand what am i possibly doing wrong? in measure 25 there's a trill with 3-2 and i used some of changs methods and it kinda worked... is there a more appropriate fingering to measure 15? also in trill using 1-3 should i concentrate on more finger motion that wrist motion?


Concerning practicing, i practice for about 4-5 hours a day. i have a certain routine i go through, when that routine breaks like i have to go somewhere or do something, and i don't finish practicing...i feel like i've something terribly wrong...i should have practiced..even now as i am writing this i feel horrible...i should have finished.

 how should i practice? even chang cannot answer my question...should i start with a piece or a scale? also i will be playing in a recital on friday and i feel that i should be practicing even more...should i? what do i do to garauntee a good performance? after practicing so much and dedicating my time and soul the making of music on this instrument, why does it have to be all blown away on a recital? why should i make mistakes? why can't i achieve what an eight year old did? does the piano i have anything to do with it? it's an electric one, hard key. so in essence what do i do?

 i detest myself, and i mean it. i can't do anything. i started about a year and a half ago and i've only advanced to play this and bach inventions and a valse of chopin. even chopin should be harder, but this? i really need some good replies. i am very different from what all of you imagine me to be. i just ugh...really need help. please take me seriously and answer me seriously. i really want to make music. and not just have the pleasure of listening.

[faulty_damper]

I didn't read your post fully.

I just want to make a comment that when writing, it's important to use the concept of the paragraph to separate individual ideas to be expounded upon.  This makes the writers point organized and thus easier to read.

[slobone]

I've abandoned any attempt at using the one topic, one paragraph rule on the Internet. My new rule is, two sentences, then hit the Enter key twice.

Works fine for me.

[a-sharp]

Dude, (forgive the expression), seriously, I was overwhelmed by all that has you concerned, and I was completely captivated by your story... Until I read the part where you said you'd started 1.5 years ago. I am just thinking, is it possible, just perhaps even remotely, that you might have hugely high expectations of yourself? I mean, I don't know you, but, I'm just saying - it's a possibility. 

[concerto_love]

Don't give up! I change it up too...

[slobone]

OK, so I just checked my edition (Peters) and it recommends 13. But I'm a little surprised you're having trouble with this and not some other things, like say the scales, which are hard to play evenly if you haven't been practicing scales a lot.

My recommendation is, practice that finger pattern when you're away from the piano. Just drum your fingers, 1313131, on the desk or table, until you can do it fast and even.

Also keep in mind that in ornamental trills, grace notes, mordents, etc., each individual note should be played very gently (quietly). Otherwise the cumulative effect stands out too much. The last G is the only important note.

EDIT: Oh, and  yeah. I used to recommend Hanon here a lot, but I've backed off a bit since my wrist started getting a little too stiff.    But if there's anything he's good for, it's certainly developing a fast even trill.

[ryan2189]

Hi

First of all, I would like to say that you will always hit ruts in piano playing. Maybe after 1.5 years you have reached one particular instance of this. You will get out of it, you just have to be patient, attentive, and open to new kinds of learning.

On the next note...reading Chang can put you in a particular mindset that I do not find particularly meaningful, especially when you need a teacher to really sit down and analyze your movements (and learn from their own as well) It is an interesting read from a pedagogical standpoint, but does not cater to other things a pianist should know. My teacher has always said that analysis from a musical standpoint comes first and then the movements follow suit. Have you thought about what kind of sound your looking for and then tried to play it, or are you playing in hopes of finding the right sound? Many people do the latter and spend a lot of time just searching. Sit down with your score at some point and think about this (away from the piano).

That was my philosophy on the matter, and here's some technical hints that will hopefully help.

The two best things I believe you can do are alternating rhythms and slow practice. Yes it sound cliche but my god does it help. If you can sit down at the piano for 4-5 hours per day, then you have plenty of time to dedicate to this.

I'll post more later, hopefully it will help =)

[8426]

i played in a recital (that took place the 27 of June) the following pieces:

Bach Inventions #1, 2 and 8

Sonata K. 545 Mozart (complete)

Valse Op. 69 # n. 2 Chopin

I was pleased with the outcome, i mean there was still a lot to be desired but, from every performance there is a benefit.

I kind of got over the mental depression that comes from not being able to do something as i was able to perform and communicate these pieces not totally devoid of music. i still have trouble performing this 1-3 trill...i don't get why. in the future i'll be able to do this...i'm not saying i've given up...i will practice it with different points of view from now on.

also....my teacher. i don't know if she might be one of the culprits. the week before the recital i played the pieces for her and she said they were fine,i didn't like that. i knew my pieces weren't technically and interpretationally correct. she offered no help concerning the 1-3 thing even though she saw me stumble over it lots of times. also since she is the director of the institution of music and fine arts. she is most of the times late to classes. and she's expecting less and less of me. i feel like maybe i should change teachers but i'm not sure if i have the correct reasons.

to gain technical facility (speed) should i practice scales? i spend 70-60 % of the time studying technique whereas the rest would be dedicated to pieces. i want to make music better than rubinstein or not exactly better...but just be me. but like rubinstein i don't want too be devoid of technicality.

when i break down my pieces in to parts, and i practice those parts, i am able to play them  at ok or required speeds. when i play the whole piece together it gets harder. and when i play different pieces together it gets even harder. and when i haven't practiced or limbered up and they suddenly ask me to play somewhere, it gets even harder. how do i maintain my technique and perfect speed? of the pieces i have probably no trouble would be Bach's inventions. no idea why. they should probably be harder but they feel easier than the sonata. the piano doesn't make the musician....but does it help? 

i know i may have gotten a little of topic here but so what...it all goes into practice right?
thank you for your tolerance...

[kard]

I understand your frustration. Even though you've done really well for 1.5 years, the frustration is still there. When I get like that, I take some sort of rest period. Then when I go back to practice, my starting point is specifically about the music - knowing the sound I want and trying to achieve that. Even your problem with the trill, for example, is probably just a mental thing. Don't get obsessive over technique. The object isn't the right hand motion. It is the right (safe, comfortable etc.) motions towards a musical idea.

Trills aren't just random note alternations, they must have a specific timing or effect in mind or else you will just get lost. Try to resolve how you are going to approach the trill in your head first. Get a feel for it. That's how I would start to try and solve that problem. I actually used to have that same problem with some of the turns in Scarlatti's 450, but now (some months later) I'm getting better at executing it in one shot.

To summarize, music playing in general starts out as a mental thing. New concepts will take time no matter how you look at it. Just persevere and make sure your teacher is aware of what you are trying to correct.

[db05]

i played in a recital (that took place the 27 of June) the following pieces:

Bach Inventions #1, 2 and 8

Sonata K. 545 Mozart (complete)

Valse Op. 69 # n. 2 Chopin

I was pleased with the outcome, i mean there was still a lot to be desired but, from every performance there is a benefit.

Congratulations! 

when i break down my pieces in to parts, and i practice those parts, i am able to play them  at ok or required speeds. when i play the whole piece together it gets harder. and when i play different pieces together it gets even harder. and when i haven't practiced or limbered up and they suddenly ask me to play somewhere, it gets even harder. how do i maintain my technique and perfect speed? of the pieces i have probably no trouble would be Bach's inventions.

That's normal. Normal. Normal. You tell me, you're more advanced and you practice more. But I'm guessing you have less trouble with inventions because they're short. Maybe you have a problem with memorizing longer pieces, such as the sonata.

also....my teacher. i don't know if she might be one of the culprits. the week before the recital i played the pieces for her and she said they were fine,i didn't like that. i knew my pieces weren't technically and interpretationally correct. she offered no help concerning the 1-3 thing even though she saw me stumble over it lots of times. also since she is the director of the institution of music and fine arts. she is most of the times late to classes. and she's expecting less and less of me. i feel like maybe i should change teachers but i'm not sure if i have the correct reasons.

Can you ask questions, like, should I play it faster/ slower, louder/ softer? How would you interpret this? Maybe even get her to demostrate for you. I do that whenever I'm more than halfway through learning a piece, sometimes I have ideas and I would show my teacher. Those moments are what it's all about. If you're going to figure it all out by yourself, what's the use studying with a teacher? Doesn't matter whether the teacher is the director or a concert artist, find someone you can really play piano with and talk to.

i've already seen chang about forearm rotation and i still don't understand what am i possibly doing wrong? in measure 25 there's a trill with 3-2 and i used some of changs methods and it kinda worked... is there a more appropriate fingering to measure 15? also in trill using 1-3 should i concentrate on more finger motion that wrist motion?

I don't think any of us can really answer that, as we can't see you practice. Try using both motions to be safe.

how should i practice? even chang cannot answer my question...should i start with a piece or a scale? also i will be playing in a recital on friday and i feel that i should be practicing even more...should i? what do i do to garauntee a good performance? after practicing so much and dedicating my time and soul the making of music on this instrument, why does it have to be all blown away on a recital? why should i make mistakes? why can't i achieve what an eight year old did? does the piano i have anything to do with it? it's an electric one, hard key. so in essence what do i do?

 i detest myself, and i mean it. i can't do anything. i started about a year and a half ago and i've only advanced to play this and bach inventions and a valse of chopin. even chopin should be harder, but this?

If you're not sure about your practice, mix it up a bit. Your mind might just need some freshening up. Maybe it was the pre-recital jitters. I still haven't settled on a practice routine, thinking of turning 1 1/2 hour to 3 hours to work on more things. There's so many things to do; don't spend more than an hour on just one thing is my rule. I read Chang, and he recommends playing finished pieces cold to check your performance.

Please don't say that. That makes me feel bad. You're doing well, I think. I started a year ago and still no inventions. A schoolmate of mine was playing for two years before he did that sonata. Not to mention a classmate who has been playing for ten years... Okay, I'm babbling... The point is, you are not as bad as you think.

i really want to make music. and not just have the pleasure of listening.

Same here. *sigh*

Cheer up, okay? *hug* 

[8426]

thank you...your answer was quite conforting. i do not have trouble memorizing pieces...well not as much trouble as some other things. thanks....really a lot for your answer. it wasn't what i expected...maybe one of these years i'll meet one of you people in person. thanks a lot for your help. really...i'm not saying it just cuz.. thank you...

[db05]

Awww, shucks. It's not nothing, but not much. I'm having a lot of trouble myself, and I hate it when people who get farther than I stop in their tracks. If you're frustrated, maybe I should quit not only piano, but music entirely!