Trill and Melody in one hand..HELP

[donjuan]

Hi everyone, I am now studying Liszt's Totentanz and Grand Concert fantasy from Sonnambula, and in both pieces, I have come across places where I need to trill (in my right hand) 2 adjacent notes with my 3,4 fingers.  At the same time, the melody is played with the 1,2 fingers of the same hand.  I am having difficulty maintaining a consistent trill while doing other things with the same hand.  I have never come across this technique before.  How can I get independent fingers?  pls noone suggest Hanon exercises, I am already well aware of them, and for the most part, they're great, but this one little trick, they dont cover..  

How can I do this?
Thanking you in advance, donjuan

[Antnee]

Ouch... Tricky

We may need Bernhard on this one.

The only thing I can think of is just be very slow and don't BS through the phrase to just make it sound like it. Try and make the trill in timing so thatyou can play the notes slowly with it. Since it's a new technique make sure it is done properly and you don't ingrain any bad habits. By the way, how long does the trill/melody thing last?? The only thing I can suggest is Dohnonyi HE deal with some independance exercises similar to this bu tnot exactly.

-Tony-

[donjuan]

Thanks for responding!
In Totentanz, there is a page of music (about 50 sec. of music) involving tremolos (with 2,3,sometimes 4 fingers) and octaves (fingers 1,5) in one hand, along with the situation I previously described.  The thing with Liszt, is we need a VERY clear melody, otherwise we end up with a mess.  Ive also seen those Dohnyani (or however you spell it) exercises.  They cover tricky thirds fingering, but not trills.
I think you are right, we need Bernhard on this one..
donjuan  

[faulty_damper]

Trills with your 3+4 shouldn't be too hard while playing the melody with your 1, 2, or both unless they are very far from the trill.

This is just going to take lots of practice because you just don't have the skill yet.  Since the trill is the line you must focus on, any break in its constance will be very noticeable, you must keep that going.  Focus on the melody line secondary.  How you play the melody is tricky.  Do you play the trill note and the melody note at the same time or do you pause the trill note to play the melody note and then continue with the trill?  Either way should net you a smooth transition as there should not be a noticeable gap in the latter.  But the technique is the prior because you're only using your 4+5 and melody with 1+2.  I don't have the pieces in front of me so I'm just shooting off my head.  Just be glad you're able to do it with the 3 and 4 and not 4 and 5.

I guess with the collective powers of all of us, we will have enough to summon the awesome knowledge known as the Bernhard!

[donjuan]

First of all, in totentanz, I haven't really arrived at the place- I was just looking ahead a page or two to the future- to predict problems I know I will encounter.
Faulty_Damper, your idea sounds reasonable and logical.  I would like to play the trill, pause without being noticed, snatch the melody note, and continue trilling.  This would be easier than trying to time the number of repititions in the trill, and lining up the melody note with one of the trill notes, right?  I would think so, but i am still unsure.  BERNHARD!! WHERE ARE YOU??I NEED HELP< PLEASEEEESSSEE!
donjuan

[jeff]

i think we need to clone bernhard

[bernhard]

Ok, don’t panic.

First a disclaimer. I do not like to give advice on pieces I have not played, which is the case here. So whatever follows is said from a purely theoretical point of view and without seeing the score. Hopefully someone who has mastered this piece will come forward and give advice that is more practical and more to the point.

And Faulty's advice is good.

If I was going to confront such a passage as you described this is what I would do:

1.      I would isolate the passage that has the technical difficulty, namely playing trill and melody with one hand.

2.      I would start by playing RH only - only the trill with fingers 3 – 4. Then I would join the melody with the left hand . This will allow you to keep doing the trill in a uniform manner without having the other fingers of the RH intervene and unbalance the trill, and at the same time you will be able to explore what is the best sound  - if you want to play the trill together with notes (my suggestion – believe me, it will be far simpler) or if it is truly effective as you think it maybe with pause in the trill to fit in the melodic notes. Only when you decide about the sound you will be able to decide on the technique to achieve it. So this is your first priority.

3.      Remember that trills are embellishments, so the melody must take precedence over it. At the same time the trill must be even and controlled – otherwise you will be calling attention to it, and it will stop being an embellishment. This is also an athletic problem you will need to develop the muscles and stamina to deal with it. So approach it with a sports training mentality (warm-up, increase effort slowly and gradually, stretch, cool down, be consistent and persistent). Muscle takes from three to six months to grow, so doing too much too soon may land you in injury land.

4.      Bringing out the melody over the trill will not present a problem, since the thumb and second finger are the strongest. Trilling with 3 – 4 will be the problem, and then co-ordinating the trill with the melody will be a nightmare. So you must master these two aspects (trill and melody) separately before attempting to co-ordinate them. So spend a long time just playing the melody with 1-2 and then trilling with 3- 4 separately. As you do that aim for the most perfect trill and for the most beautiful rendition of the melody you can manage. Also do what I suggested in [2] and use the other hand to play the trill as you play the melody with 1-2 (you may need to cross hands) or to play the melody as you play the trill with 3-4. This will get you used to the sound of it without so much technical difficulty (you can also ask the help of another pianist and share with him the trill and the melody). Also if you have access to a digital piano that has a recording/playback facility, you can record the trill and play the melody yourself and vice-versa.

5.      Trilling with 3-4 for any length of time cannot be done with fingers alone. So use rotation of the forearm to help you. At speed this rotation may look to an observer as not being there at all. But you should feel it, even though it may be so small as to be invisible. Fingers 1 –2 playing the melody can also use the help of this rotation to land them in the proper place. Co-ordinating it all will be the real problem. Fortunately, our bodies are wired for these feats of co-ordination, and if you do not pay excessive attention to the minutiae of the movement, it should all come together beautifully without you quite knowing how it was achieved. But start fretting about microscopic details and everything falls apart.

6.      Once you are totally comfortable with the above, you can give the big step and join everything together. But do not jump straight into it. Do something I call “dropping notes”. Play the trill for the whole duration, but only the first note of the melody. In other words, you “drop” the first melodic note, and stop, but you continue trilling until the end. Your aim here is not to let the “dropping” of the melodic note to disturb the trilling in any way. Once you can do the first melodic note comfortably and without disturbing the trill in the least, start dropping the first two melodic notes, then drop three melodic notes and so on and so forth. In the beginning everything will fall apart every time you add a new note, but after a few trials, it should come together again. Once you can do the whole passage acceptably, do the reverse process: play the melody from beginning to end with fingers 1- 2. Then add just a fraction of the trill with fingers 3 – 4 (just enough to cover the first melodic note) and play the whole melody to the end. Again your aim is to not let the addition of the trill fragment disturb the progression of the melodic line. Keep adding trill fragments to the melodic line until you can play the full passage. You may need to repeat this procedure from scratch for several days before it comes together confidently first thing in your practice.

7.      All the time during the several steps of this process you should be experimenting with different movements in order to find out the one that is the most comfortable/efficient  for you , for the sound you want.

8.      Finally, do not practise this sort of passage too slowly until you figure out the movements that are efficient at speed. Work fast (but not too fast), and once you know the movement s that will work for you, then and only then slow it down so that you can get accuracy within that movement frame. In other words, do not practise slowly, practise in slow motion. And do not try to tackle too long a passage. Break it down and work in small sections, overlapping sections as you go along.

9.      Ah yes! You cannot have independent fingers. But you can give the illusion of having independent fingers (pretty much like a magician cannot really saw a lady in half – but if he is really good he will convince you he can).

I hope this helps. I will try to have a look at the score, and I will let you know if I can think of something else

Best wishes
Bernhard.

[donjuan]

Bernhard, I thank you so,so much for your effort!    You truely are a great teacher. I will try these things and maybe in a while ill have the technique down.
donjuan

[bernhard]

Bernhard, I thank you so,so much for your effort!    You truely are a great teacher. I will try these things and maybe in a while ill have the technique down.
donjuan

You are welcome.  

Tell us if it worked.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[amanfang]

What about trilling with 1 and 2 with the melody above it, such as in Beethoven Op 53?  Is it ok to stop the trill to play the melody note and then resume the trill?

[donjuan]

What about trilling with 1 and 2 with the melody above it, such as in Beethoven Op 53?

oh, that would be great!. .. ..but, the melody is below the trill.

[amanfang]

mm 336-342; 484-514

[donjuan]

We arent talking about Beethoven, we are talking about the two works of Liszt.  But thanks for your input.
donjuan

sorry for sounding so snobbish..

[faulty_damper]

Shirmer's edition has editing that writes out the trill and melody.  It looks much more tangible that way because you don't have to imagine the "tr" and the squigly lines telling you to trill while playing the melody line.

I think in Op. 53, you play the trill but do not play the note and the trill note at the same time, you split it.  This is what the Shirmer edition writes out.  You could write it our, too.  Much easier that way.

[amanfang]

Sorry donjuan...  I was asking my own question about the melody and trill - this is my first time to do one and was looking for tips.  Thanks faulty.  I'll check out the Schirmer ed.

[donjuan]

Sorry donjuan...  I was asking my own question about the melody and trill - this is my first time to do one and was looking for tips.  Thanks faulty.  I'll check out the Schirmer ed.

it's ok.
donjuan

[willcowskitz]

If you mean bar 49, have you tried trilling with 2 and 3? (assuming your fingers can fit between the two black keys)

[donjuan]

I hope you are talking about Totentanz.
Hmmm, there's an idea, but unfortunately at the end of the trill, the righthand must play a chord.  Trilling with the 2,3 fingers would force me to play the chord with the 1,2 fingers.--an uncomfortable stretch and quite awkward.  

I was actually considering playing the melody with the 1 finger of the left hand, while the 5,4,2 fingers play the chord for the full count of the measure.  But that idea didn't work either, becuase of the grace notes I would have to catch at the end of the measure in the left hand.

Let's face it.  Liszt designed this place so it is as difficult as possible, and no alternate fingers could be used to make it easier.

thanks for your effort.
donjuan

[willcowskitz]

Yes I'm talking about Totentanz, I think I also have the same edition (EMB) of the sheet.

I tried the part myself (silently though, its 2:40am here and I just received complaints from the housekeeper about nightly pianoing  )  and had no bigger problem with neither of the fingerings, except that my 4th finger is lame and I can't trill very fast with it. I think the lower notes (that you use the thumb on) must be thought of as being part of a tremolo that occurs at each eighth thumb note; being Hb A Ab A.  This means I just moved the point of balance of my hand (up from wrist) to both thumb and 2nd/3rd finger (whichever you use) when the thumb joined the trill, the hardest part was probably to raise the thumb in time cause you have to rhythm it right with the trill - I suggest you try pounding the thumb down for the duration of that trill's one note at first.  

Excuse my narrow vocabulary, if my text is annoying to read I can assure you it was even more annoying to form.


P.s.  Oh and I wouldn't pay too much attention to the printed fingerings, I have found that they are often plain irrational or just don't work with my hands, and sometimes the most obvious spots have finger markings all through them, while the seemingly impossible parts have none... As Horowitz said; "I only know that in the music itself I found out what the fingers had to do."

[donjuan]

alright, ill try it again...thak you very much for your advice.  What are you doing up at such an hour?  Right now where I am it is 6:11 pm.
donjuan

[willcowskitz]

I don't go to school, I don't work, I don't have social obligations.  
At nights, it's the optimal time to play the piano, when everything is quiet and dark and my mind can settle. Too bad some people think quietness must be wasted in sleeping.  

Hope you get the part going. I might also need some advice on the same piece at some point, I'm not working on it from the beginning to end though, but learning bits from the middle, trying to conquer it little by little.