Pianos in Classical Orchestras

[oceansoul]

Greetings.

Pianos usually do not integrate in an orchestra, unless it's a Piano Concerto. Right?
In the case I'm wrong, I'd like to know classical orchestra works with the piano as an element.
In the case I'm right, I'd like you guys to tell me what Piano Concertos you think are easier to play.
All this because I might get into an orchestra, and I need to know what awaits me. I'm afraid this might be too much for me. But with dedication and deep work, maybe I can do it. Please tell me the easiest and shortest piano concertos.

Thanks in advance.

[general disarray]

Greetings.

Pianos usually do not integrate in an orchestra, unless it's a Piano Concerto. Right?
In the case I'm wrong, I'd like to know classical orchestra works with the piano as an element.

Wrong.  A good example are Bach's keyboard concerti, in which the piano isn't a "star" but is part of the entire contrapuntal texture.

Another example is Ernest Bloch's "Concerto grosso for piano and strings," a fabulous piece in which the piano is rather prominent but is employed almost entirely to double other instruments.  It would be a good choice for you, as would any of the Bach concerti.  OR, for that matter, the Brandenburg Concerti, with piano as continuo, are fun to play -- but the Fifth is a major challenge.

Other symphonic pieces with piano parts that come immediately to mind is the Saint-Saens Third Symphony.  The scherzo movement has a pretty difficult part for one pianist and the final movement needs two pianists (four hands) for some pretty easy-to-play, but dazzling textural arpeggios.  Of course, the piece requires a big, honking organ and a virtuoso orchestra, so it's not necessarily a student ensemble piece.  Neither is Resphigi's "Pines of Rome" which has a piano part within the very complex orchestra texture.  There are many other examples of the piano used as just another symphonic instrument in Romantic and post-Romantic works.  Shostakovich, a "modern" composer, often uses piano in his symphonies. 

As for "easy" concertos, well, that's nearly an oxymoron.  Concertos are usually designed to showcase the virtuosity of the soloist, so it wouldn't make much sense to write an "easy" concerto, would it?

That said, Cecile Chaminade has a "Concertstuck for piano and orchestra," Op. 40 that's not a masterpiece, but it's pleasant enough and not hard at all.

Howard Ferguson has a wonderful concerto for piano and strings (D Major).  It's of average difficulty and a talented student could pull it off.  Plus, it's just a fabulous piece. 

Haydn's D Major concerto is moderately difficult and a good "easy" choice.

D'Indy's "Symphony on a French Mountain Song" uses the piano in primarlly accompanying figures but there are passages that serve a solo function.  Not easy, but not impossible.

Believe it or not, the Liszt concerti, as virtuosic as they sound, are not that formidable and talented students everywhere play them, but I emphasize the word "talented" here.

Nikolai Lopatnikoff has a fine Concerto No. 2 in F minor, Op. 15 that presents no real hurdles or the soloist.

Schumann's Concertstuck in G Major, Op. 92 is manageable.  No real serious technical problems here.  The A minor Concerto, however, requires brilliant musicanship.  Technically, it's quite possible for a very talented student.

I know I should be mentioning Mozart concerti here, but, frankly, I think they are harder than hell and the exposed nature of the writing is a frightening experience for anyone not secure with playing in public.  Someone else can suggest an "easy" one.  For me, there is NO easy Mozart.

These are just a few options out there.  But, keep in mind, as "easy" as the above are, they aren't "Easy."  You'll be challenged beyond your wildest expectations.  Be warned.

[slobone]

If you're thinking about becoming a pianist who's a member of an orchestra -- first of all, that's a very odd career ambition. I'm not even sure people in that position get full-time pay, because you definitely wouldn't be appearing in every concert. Except for the odd piece here and there, pianos weren't used in orchestral pieces until the 20th century, and even then it's not that common.

As for continuo parts in early music, they're usually played on a harpsichord, so they'd be looking for somebody with training on that instrument.

And of course there are far more qualified pianists around than there are openings in orchestras. If you're determined to play in an orchestra, learn the viola.

[general disarray]

If you're thinking about becoming a pianist who's a member of an orchestra -- first of all, that's a very odd career ambition. I'm not even sure people in that position get full-time pay, because you definitely wouldn't be appearing in every concert. Except for the odd piece here and there, pianos weren't used in orchestral pieces until the 20th century, and even then it's not that common.

As for continuo parts in early music, they're usually played on a harpsichord, so they'd be looking for somebody with training on that instrument.

And of course there are far more qualified pianists around than there are openings in orchestras. If you're determined to play in an orchestra, learn the viola.

Of course, these observations are sound.  But, I assumed the poster was a "student" auditioning for a "student" orchestra.  Didn't you? 

However -- for the record -- major orchestras do indeed have full-time pianists.  Even the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra does.  But, that's only one position and it's highly competitive. Hardly a career goal, as everyone knows.

And mastering the harpsichord well enough to play continuo takes about three or four hours, even for the modestly talented keyboard artist.  Don't let that deter you.

Lots of pianists get gigs in regional, small-season orchestras who don't have a full-time pianist.  That's exactly how I got experience with the Saint Saens, D'Indy, Bloch and Bach.

Don't be deterred by the negativity of others.  Make it happen. 

   

[oceansoul]

Greetings.

That orchestra has a list of people who collaborate with it. I might be one of them. But I do think they are way more advanced than I am, since some of the persons collaborating with the orchestra are some of the stars from this country. But it's an orchestra that promotes learning and studying. I will still talk with the director, and I'll tell him about my level. If he thinks I might do some things with the orchestra, or maybe accompanying some of their operas... I think it might be a good chance for me to get more work rhythm and experience.
And also... It's not a paid association. It's an association to promote the learning and studying of music and opera. But it has an orchestra too.

Best regards.

[slobone]

However -- for the record -- major orchestras do indeed have full-time pianists.  Even the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra does.  But, that's only one position and it's highly competitive. Hardly a career goal, as everyone knows.   

The Metropolitan Opera has numerous full-time pianists on their staff, because they need them during rehearsals. But they're not in the pit during performances except on rare occasions.

And mastering the harpsichord well enough to play continuo takes about three or four hours, even for the modestly talented keyboard artist.  Don't let that deter you.

I'm so sure the guys you see playing the harpsichord continuo at baroque concerts have only been doing it for three or four hours.

It's a highly developed skill, because continuo parts are usually written as a figured bass. You have to know how to improvise in the style of a dozen different composers, not to mention being adept at accompanying singers who are often a considerable distance away from  you.

[general disarray]

The Metropolitan Opera has numerous full-time pianists on their staff, because they need them during rehearsals. But they're not in the pit during performances except on rare occasions.

I'm so sure the guys you see playing the harpsichord continuo at baroque concerts have only been doing it for three or four hours.

It's a highly developed skill, because continuo parts are usually written as a figured bass. You have to know how to improvise in the style of a dozen different composers, not to mention being adept at accompanying singers who are often a considerable distance away from  you.

I have a friend who is on the Met Opera roster and you'd be surprised how often the piano features in opera scores, particularly R. Strauss (ever hear of "Ariadne auf Naxos?") and many composers well after him.  It's hardly "rare."

Continuo parts are often written out -- in fact, they have all been written out in the Brandenburgs I've performed.  These were the works I was referring to -- exclusively, and you know it.  I wasn't even suggesting that anyone can pick up the skills of a Gustav Leonhardt in three to four hours.  My simple assertion was and is that, in a pinch, any talented pianist with some musicianship can handle the continuo part in the Brandenburg Third, for example, with a few hours of acclimation to the instrument.  The part itself is sight-readable. 

The sarcasm that characterizes your posts becomes tedious.  You had not one word of support or approval for the rather long post I wrote in effort to be helpful to the original poster.  Just negativity.  But, jumping in to challenge, oppose or diminish what I wrote seemed actually inspirational to you.  In fact, it seems to come quite naturally to you.

Do me a favor and ignore my posts from here on out.  I'll do you the same favor. 

[richard black]

As a fairly frequent orchestral pianist I'll tell you that the piano features pretty much exclusively in 20th-century works, and often has a very minor part to play. Typically you count about 200 bars, play a couple of exposed chords and a run or two, then doze off till the end of the movement. Seldom is the piano part really hard to play, though it can sometimes be tricky: however, you need to be very, very good at counting numerous bars rest and you don't often get much help from the conductor. You also need to be very good at following a conductor, who will probably be far away. You also get to play celeste, which is a sweet little thing. Off the top of my head, select orch. piano highlights include:

Stravinsky 'Petrouchka' (I'm playing that tomorrow night!) - practically a concertante part in places and sometimes taken by big-name soloists. Frequently audible, sometimes solo, and one of the hardest to play. At least you can count on a solo bow. Officially a separate player is needed for celeste, though the part is so tiny it can be incorporated into the piano part.

Shostakovich 1st symphony - very audible in the scherzo, awkward to play (mainly because very fast).

Shost. 5th symphony - piano doubling celeste, a really nice part, plenty to do, though dozens of bars of Philip Glass-like repeated octaves on the last couple of pages are a bit trying on the nerves.

Shost. violin concerto - other end of the scale (actually this one's celeste, come to think), with a total of about 50 notes, only in the first movement. Take a good book to rehearsals.

Saint-Saens organ symphony, already mentioned  - can't remember whether it's piano duet or two pianos, but anyway it's a very rare example of two players needed. PLus the organist, of course....

Strauss 4 last songs - ridiculous, about 10 chords on celeste, but really obvious so not optional.

Korngold violin concerto - can't remember much about the actual part but the piece is gorgeous and a pleasure to be part of.

And so on.....

[rachfan]

There are still some other genres that come to mind other than concertos per se. 

De Falla's "Nights in the Gardens of Spain" is sometimes mistaken for a piano concerto, but is actually a piano obbligato entwined with the orchestral score.  Some concert artists shy away form the piece for that reason, and it's sometimes played by orchestral "house pianists".

In Debussy's gorgeous "Fantasie for Piano and Orchestra" (which should be heard far more frequently), the composer treats the piano not as a solo part, but instead as an equal with the orchestra. 

The very same is true of Dohnanyi's witty "Variations on a Nursery Tune". The piano part is considered to be an equal with the orchestra.

[retrouvailles]

Take a look at Alfred Schnittke's 1st Symphony. In parts of it, the pianist plays a very audible (sometimes solo) and jazzy part, some of which must be improvised. This symphony really is not for the faint of heart, also.