Who am I ?

[general disarray]

I looked up Satori and found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori  Was it their definition of satori or kensho (trying to gain understanding of this).

"Satori" or "kensho" are extremely complex philosophical concepts that are the heart of Buddhism.  They both refer to "enlightenment" or the revelation of one's True Nature.  True Nature refers to that original state of wonder at the originality and "newness" of the world as commonly experienced by children.  The 20th-century British writer Aldous Huxley explored these concepts throughout his novels and essays.  So did Timothy Leary and Ram Dass (Richard Alpert), both of Harvard University,  in their experimentation in the 1960s with the use of LSD to achieve the same ends with chemicals.

Once again, I refer you to James' and Kapleau's classic works.  It takes nearly of lifetime of study to understand these concepts.  Wikipedia can't do them justice.  "Wiki," by the way, is Hawaiian (my present adopted land) for "quick, fast."  So, the definition you will find is superficial, at best.

[general disarray]

You're tired, concerto love.  Go to bed.

[concerto_love]

You're tired, concerto love.  Go to bed.

Thanks, this topic is kind of very hard to me... Ok, huaahmmmm..

[pianowolfi]

That said, I just wanted to pass on some ideas about perception.  The classical definition of perception is that "perception" is what the brain interprets for us after sensation.  "Sensation" being the pure, first experience of something before we've put a word to it.

Words are weird.  They are wired into the brain with so many associations to them that any one word recalled (perception) brings up a host of ideas, notions, scents, sounds, feelings.  When that word arises, the real object sensated "dies."  We no longer experience it for what it truly is; it has become abstracted, embellished, and/or edited by the word connected with it.

I find that fascinating and depressing at the same time, because I love language.  But language DOES separate us from sensation and that separation very well may be what the authors of Genesis are metaphorically describing as our "Fall from Grace."  With "knowlege," i.e. the word, sensation becomes replaced by perception and our wonder with the universe ceases.

My two cents and probably worth less than that in these inflationary times.

I wonder where the concepts are in this conception. Don't we need to make a difference between words and concepts?

[thalbergmad]

I was thinking the same thing. What the hell are these people talking about?

Like a scientist analyzing a glass of water, they will die of thirst.

Thal

[keypeg]

Thank you, GD.  I will eschew the years of study, though, and stay with what I have received on this simpler path that came unbidden.  It seems to me that when a thing is sought, it will not be found, because in the seeking we form an image which masks it.  There are some things I don't like reading about, lest it separate me from the actual experience.  But I am happy to know there are such names for such things, and people have had such experiences that are named in this way.

[ahinton]

But -- though I may be wrong -- I believe this conversation is steering toward the need for music (and/or art) as it is capable of expressing something that words cannot.  And, while I do not disagree entirely, I also wonder why that would be, given the principles behind the expression ?  And, if the conversation is not steering in that direction, then my question regarding language is still along those lines.  Who, exactly, says it cannot fully express ?  I am reminded of a quote that is favored, it seems, by some "Where the music starts and the words end" (or so)  -- well, why must they be separate things to us ?  Perhaps that is just how we would like it to be.

I realise that I am being somewhat selective here in terms of the more general discussion initiated by this thread, but I would say that, whilst the notion of music beginning where words leave off has arguably enjoyed such currency and wide circulation as to confer upon it the status of a cliché, I d not necessarily see that as undermining its validity. As a composer, I know that it is sometimes so hard to write certain music that I might on occasion be tempted to think that, had it been possible to express what I'm trying to express using words, I'd have saved myself a lot of heartache had I done that instead - but life just doesn't work out that way. Of course I never set about any work consciously thinking along the lines that I am seeking to express something for which no words would do, but I have little doubt that this concept is nevertheless possessed of a subconscious latency. Whilst there is at times a light-weightness about Strauss's final opera Capriccio, the seemingly irresoluble creative conflict between music and words almost assumes the importance of a character in it from time to time - and then there's a certain quotation from Berlioz with which you will be familiar from having recently listened to a certain work of mine in which I set it...

Best,

Alistair

[chopininov]

Are you just stating a random opinion about your life as you know it or does this comment actually have some kind of relevance to the thread you have posted it in ? 

Taking that opinion for what it is, it would seem you wish for an individual to be somebody they are not, which is a bit ironic considering you also seem to believe that only the individual should determine just whom or what they are.  Chopininov, be a dear and don't bother forming opinions about other people, especially since those opinions are apparently utterly worthless .

Didn't have to be a b itch.
I do not wish for any individual to act like someone they are not, and am confused as to how you came to this conclusion. I just wonder why people like you ask others 'who you are,' as it would seem that is a question known only by yourself.

[m19834]

Didn't have to be a b itch.

Actually, you are quite wrong there, my friend; I do have to be *quite* a b itch .  At least what people like you like to call people like me when you percieve behavior from me that you don't care for.  In any case, that is not what I was aiming to be and that is not what I was in response to you, and I would know actually since only I really know myself.  In this case, I was simply responding to your post as I saw fit.

I do not wish for any individual to act like someone they are not, and am confused as to how you came to this conclusion. I just wonder why people like you ask others 'who you are,' as it would seem that is a question known only by yourself.

Firstly, just because the title reads "Who am I" does not mean that I, in fact, was asking anybody who I actually am.  I was a bit curious about how people would "interpret" the thread, especially given the text within my very first post -- perhaps you did not read the first post ?  In any event, I am betting that the part that you didn't quite enjoy enough from my last post to you was where I remarked about your opinions being "apparently utterly worthless" -- though I may not have worded it exactly right, I believe that this is, in fact, the same thing you are leading to when you wonder why people would ask others who they are since only they would know, and that is actually what I was referring to.

I think the only reason behavior of one person annoys another person (which is what you said in your initial post) is because the annoyed person believes the other should not be behaving as they are.  This is how I reached the conclusion that you would wish for those whom ask others who they are to change their behavior or act differently than who they are.  I hope this clarifies .

[thalbergmad]

Foxy fights back.

Thal

[m19834]

No, No, Thal, you have me all wrong.  I actually don't "fight" at all.  I just bite  .

[m19834]

I realise that I am being somewhat selective here in terms of the more general discussion initiated by this thread, but I would say that, whilst the notion of music beginning where words leave off has arguably enjoyed such currency and wide circulation as to confer upon it the status of a cliché, I d not necessarily see that as undermining its validity. As a composer, I know that it is sometimes so hard to write certain music that I might on occasion be tempted to think that, had it been possible to express what I'm trying to express using words, I'd have saved myself a lot of heartache had I done that instead - but life just doesn't work out that way. Of course I never set about any work consciously thinking along the lines that I am seeking to express something for which no words would do, but I have little doubt that this concept is nevertheless possessed of a subconscious latency. Whilst there is at times a light-weightness about Strauss's final opera Capriccio, the seemingly irresoluble creative conflict between music and words almost assumes the importance of a character in it from time to time - and then there's a certain quotation from Berlioz with which you will be familiar from having recently listened to a certain work of mine in which I set it...

Best,

Alistair

Hi, Alistair,

I appreciate your post here and I can get the spirit of it.  Admittedly, it is very difficult for me at times to express in words what it is that I mean, and sometimes it feels exactly impossible.  I think that no matter how articulate nor poetic I become, this will always be the case.  Along that same vein, I actually believe it is impossible for music even to express all that is to be expressed, if you see what I mean.  In listening to your Quintet, I am definitley struck by it and I definitely feel a sense of some kind of communication within it.  Whether that is between you and me, so to speak, or between whomever and whomever, I really couldn't say.  But, my bet is that what is respresented in sound is only a portion of your musical experience, however truthfully the sounds have been conveyed.  I do know though that there are times when I have perhaps improvised something as I really mean it, or times in which I have been able to poetically express something that I truly mean.  What happens though is that I grow beyond it and those "words" (be it music or written) still mean something, but not what they once did.  I think that a good communication of any type will resemble something I once saw at Disneyland, hee hee, where in the "Haunted Mansion" there were some kind of "statues" whose eyes followed you wherever you went.  I think a good communication will do something like those eyes do, it will follow a person wherever they go and in the case of a communication (and not just eyes on a statue in a Disneyland Haunted Mansion), the meaning of it will change along with the person's growth.

I have to say though, I believe sometimes people put far too little weight into what they say and how they say it.  As a species I suspect we are just infants in our ability to communicate with each other, and to communicate anything of substance.  I will admit, I think people often unnecessarily complicate matters by avoiding a simple verbal or written communication because they are just afraid (or lazy), or they seek some kind of extra drama.  As a matter of fact, I am often quite surprised by how much energy and time an individual is willing to expend to do anything but communicate in words !  In the worst cases, it could be something like dropping an atom bomb on a community because words just don't seem fit in getting the message across.  I know it's not all black and white though.  Sometimes I am just a bit disheartened at seemingly seeing the potential of the human race as a whole, in comparison with its apparent standards and current ability, not to diminish progress and not to diminish the individual's working out of life as best as s/he can with what s/he's got.  Sometimes I just feel impatient, I suppose.

Well, I will stop there for now.

[ahinton]

Hi, Alistair,

I appreciate your post here and I can get the spirit of it.

Thanks very much. I do my best to express thoughts properly; doubtless I often fail fully or in part...

In listening to your Quintet, I am definitley struck by it and I definitely feel a sense of some kind of communication within it.  Whether that is between you and me, so to speak, or between whomever and whomever, I really couldn't say.  But, my bet is that what is respresented in sound is only a portion of your musical experience, however truthfully the sounds have been conveyed.

Well, thanks again - for bothering to listen to all of it and to comment on and refer to it. I'd buy your bet here, actually, at least to the extent that, for all that it is in some senses the most ambitious thing that I have ever done, it remains but one of my works and an early one at that, so your assumptiopn that it represents "only a portion of (my) musical experience" is not unreasonable - indeed, it is inevitably true.

I have to say though, I believe sometimes people put far too little weight into what they say and how they say it.  As a species I suspect we are just infants in our ability to communicate with each other, and to communicate anything of substance.

It would be hard, if not actually impossible, realistically to argue with that...

Well, I will stop there for now.

As will I...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

As a matter of fact, I am often quite surprised by how much energy and time an individual is willing to expend to do anything but communicate in words ! 

Communicating in words takes more effort than anything else. Your body communicates naturally and requires no thought or concentration.

This is the problem with internet forums. I cannot see you, so i cannot really understand you.

You are a complex lady foxy.

Thal

[m19834]

Communicating in words takes more effort than anything else. Your body communicates naturally and requires no thought or concentration.

This is the problem with internet forums. I cannot see you, so i cannot really understand you.

You are a complex lady foxy.

Thal

Well, while I get the notion here, body language in general is something that people have their own (mis)perceptions about (and it is quite psychological anyway).  Even if you "saw" me, you may not really see me.  There are still your own thoughts and ideas about who I am that would be getting into the way. 

There is no perfect language, except for one  .

Anyway, I am a lover not a fighter.


But I am also a fighter, so don't get any ideas.  *whistles*

[thalbergmad]

Well, while I get the notion here, body language in general is something that people have their own (mis)perceptions about (and it is quite psychological anyway). 

Indeed, it is psychological, but it is almost impossible to "lie" with your body. After 20 years working for a bank, i became well practised at reading body language. Somebody can tell you one thing with their lips, but their body always tells the truth.

I do have thoughts and ideas about who you are, but these would be much more accurate if i met you. You did reveal a little when you posted a photo, but real life meetings speak volumes.

Thal

[ahinton]

Indeed, it is psychological, but it is almost impossible to "lie" with your body. After 20 years working for a bank,

My sympathies go out to you as never brfore...

i became well practised at reading body language. Somebody can tell you one thing with their lips, but their body always tells the truth.

Just as in so many other walks of life, except in cases where the communicator has sufficiently well practised the various arts of deception using both kinds of language...

I do have thoughts and ideas about who you are, but these would be much more accurate if i met you. You did reveal a little when you posted a photo, but real life meetings speak volumes.

I cannot comment on the latter since I did not see that photo.

Anyway, Thal - we must meet sometime...

Best,

Alistair

[concerto_love]

 

[thalbergmad]

Don't worry sweetie, one day all will become clear.

Thal

[m]

After 20 years working for a bank...

Never ever had that type of questions about board members, but for some unexplainable reason last night (after reading the latest Thal/Ahinton exchange, which BTW, I believe is possibly the  liveliest and most entertaining thing on the board) had a weird thought about what Thal actually does in real life...
Sorry Thal, you just blew the whole idea of enigma .

M

[ahinton]

Never ever had that type of questions about board members, but for some unexplainable reason last night (after reading the latest Thal/Ahinton exchange, which BTW, I believe is possibly the  liveliest and most entertaining thing on the board) had a weird thought about what Thal actually does in real life...
Sorry Thal, you just blew the whole idea of enigma .

Well, thank you for the compliment, but I'm not sure that Thal still works for a bank (he might do, but I do not know what he now does for a living except that I do not believe that banjo playing is it - and, let's face it, 20 years working for a bank is surely at least a quarter century too much for most people...)

Best,

Alistair

[m]

Well, thank you for the compliment, but I'm not sure that Thal still works for a bank (he might do, but I do not know what he now does for a living except that I do not believe that banjo playing is it - and, let's face it, 20 years working for a bank is surely at least a quarter century too much for most people...)

Best,

Alistair

Well, I am sure it won't take long for Thal to chime in and put things straight concerning his current bank/banjo activities. I however, cannot help but notice that 20 years working for a bank would be rather a fifth of century, unless I am missing something, or something terribly wrong went with my math... unless you wanted to imply (although I highly doubt that would be the case) that 20 years working for a bank feels like 25.   

Best, M

[tanman]

 same here. no idea what their talking about. can't believe I wasted time reading this topic...

[concerto_love]

same here. no idea what their talking about. can't believe I wasted time reading this topic...

Confusing....

[m19834]

same here. no idea what their talking about. can't believe I wasted time reading this topic...

You mean, you wasted your time reading the topic and then decided to proceed in wasting more time to post about it

[tanman]

You mean, you wasted your time reading the topic and then decided to proceed in wasting more time to post about it

yes, I hoped that my comment would get people to change the topic.

[ahinton]

yes, I hoped that my comment would get people to change the topic.

Then even as a matter of principle you did indeed waste your time, as K (the initiator of this thread) rightly suggests. The English composer Vaughan Williams is credited as having observed that if a piece is sufficiently in need of revision it's probably best to write a new piece instead; that is, of course, the composer's prerogative, whereas if you feel that this thread topic is likewise in sufficient need of revision (as appears to be the case), your most appropriate course of action would not be to try to have it changed but to refrain from contributing to it and go away and read threads whose topics are of greater interest to you.

Thank you in advance for doing just that.

Best,

Alistair

[goldentone]

Thank you in advance for doing just that.

That, I suppose, is the cordiality of quite a hint. 

[thalbergmad]

The English composer Vaughan Williams is credited as having observed that if a piece is sufficiently in need of revision it's probably best to write a new piece instead;

Perhaps he should have followed some of his own excellent advice.

Thal

[ahinton]

Perhaps he should have followed some of his own excellent advice.

Perhaps he actually did so - who knows? Do you?...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Perhaps he actually did so - who knows? Do you?...

Well, I am sure you must know, so you had better enlighten me.

Admittedly i have only seen one of his manuscripts.

Thal

[ahinton]

Well, I am sure you must know, so you had better enlighten me.

Admittedly i have only seen one of his manuscripts.

No, I do not know - and it would be hard to prove in any case unless he'd decided either that a particular piece was just too unsatisfactory to release or that one which had already been released was sufficiently unsatisfactory to warrant its withdrawal. I do understand the principle, however, although I'm not suggesting that his apparent avowed stance on this is better than the alternative; it is quite rightly the composer's prerogative whether or not to revise, withdraw or discard a piece, just as it is his/her prerogative, for example, to decide whether or not to write a particular piece at the piano - neither is a mater of right ways or wrong ways - each is purely a matter of personal choice. In regard to the latter comparison, you may know Ravel's injunction to Stravinsky in which he said that some composers write at the piano and some away from the piano but that he (Stravinsky) should write at the piano (not that he was ordering the younger composer how to go about his work - he merely recognised that composing at the piano would usually be the best way for Stravinsky); personally, I never write at the piano, but that's just my choice - and I've very rarely revised anything that I've written.

So, after that somewhat circuitous digression, who am I? - well, apparently a composer who composes away from the piano and rarely revises anything...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Thank you m'lud.

Thal

[ahinton]

Thank you m'lud.

My pleasure - and that concludes the case for the indefensible (i.e. moi). Now run along and listen to the first night of the Proms, there's a good chap - Mozart and Strauss, Messiaen and Carter, Skryabin...

Enjoy!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Carter!!!

Is that the man who is 99 years old that you never mention?

Anyway, Coronation Street is coming on at 8.30.

Thal

[ahinton]

Carter!!!

Is that the man who is 99 years old that you never mention?

Anyway, Coronation Street is coming on at 8.30.

So what? Anyway, the Carter piece probably won't be on until after that street without cred is - er - orff, so please wait for the leaves on the line (by which I mean to point out that the little Carter piano study that's on tonight is called Caténaires, which is French for railway line points - and the pianist tonight is French and Carter himself was raised speaking French before he learnt English)...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Anyway, the Carter piece probably won't be on until after that street

Thats a shame.

Anyway, I think Morse is on instead.

Thal

[ahinton]

Thats a shame.

Anyway, I think Morse is on instead.

In addition, surely?...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

AH takes a break during the Beethoven after Messiaen clearly demonstrated the deline in French organ music.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Oh dear, the Beethoven has finished and someone appears to be practising his typewriter skills on the piano.

What ear offensive bile.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Some pianist on the first night of the Proms has just sent a message in Morse Code.

Thal

[ahinton]

AH takes a break during the Beethoven after Messiaen clearly demonstrated the deline in French organ music.

Wrong on all counts; I listened to the entire second half of that concert, Messaien demonstrated nothing of the sort and by "deline" you presumably meant "decline" even though there was none such for which Messiaen was responsible.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Oh dear, the Beethoven has finished and someone appears to be practising his typewriter skills on the piano.

What ear offensive bile.

If you're referring to Carter's Caténaires here, I must disagree with you entirely - I found it as vibrant and exciting as when first I heard it, although I would also like to hear it played by someone else besides the pianist who commissioned and premièred it and played it again this evening.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Some pianist on the first night of the Proms has just sent a message in Morse Code.

I think that you are referring to Pierre-Laurent Airmard (who preceded the Carter piece with the Beethoven piece), but I thought that you had in any case intended to partake of Morse (even though it was not Morse but Frost on the television during the second half of the Prom concert tonight), so why were you bothered by this?...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

so why were you bothered by this?...

I am not, but i am glad that the Carter typewriter sonata was a shortish piece.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Messaien demonstrated nothing of the sort and by "deline" you presumably meant "decline" even though there was none such for which Messiaen was responsible.

It is the 3rd time i have heard that piece and on each occasion it has left me completely unmoved.

I would however say that the recording i heard of the organ at St Ignatius Loyola was superior IMHO.

I knew this subject would get you flying off your perch.

Thal

[ahinton]

It is the 3rd time i have heard that piece and on each occasion it has left me completely unmoved.

Well, that's your prerogative, of course - no problem there.

I would however say that the recording i heard of the organ at St Ignatius Loyola was superior IMHO.

I can't say that the recently refurbished RAH instrument did a whole lot for me, either (although I wasn't actually present at the concert)...

I knew this subject would get you flying off your perch.

Hardly that!

Best,

Alistair