Playing Muisc at the highest level

[etcetra]

Hi I am jazz pianist, I am coming from the jazz end of things but i figured classical pianists probably go through the same thing that I do.  I guess I'll start out by saying that I am 28, I just graduated from college with a degree in jazz.  I am competent enough to be playing gigs, and considering that i started late (at the age of 15) I think I should be happy about my progress.

But I am not happy about where I am at all.  I've heard the best  jazz young s of my generation, Aaron Parks, Tigran Hamasyan, Eldar Djangriov, Taylor Eigsti, Rachel Z, you name it there are so many of them.. and well it seems like the better I get the more I realize how far I am from reaching the level they are playing at all... at one point it became so daunting that I am just too overwhelmed to play anymore
 
I know its probably not fair to compare myself to these people, they are certainly the best jazz pianists to come out of this generation, and I started at least 10 years later than these people.. and I didn't have the best musical background or education.. But still, what I do seem so insignificant, and so trite knowing what is out there.  I guess I have this insane expectation, or need,  and I don't expect myself to be the best ever, but I  guess in my mind, if I am giving my life to music and if i am no where near their level, it seems like a waste of my time and life.

I guess most of my friends, colleagues seems to do okay without having such concerns, they are happy where they are, and it annoys me to a certain excent, because a lot of these people stopping growing and improving altogether.  I guess I can't accept mediocrity.  At one point I was willing to give myself everything to it, if it meant practicing 15 hrs a day I would have done it, but I had a really severe tendinitis and i had to stop playing for a while.  At this point, I have to be really careful not to overdo it...I usually do 4-5 hrs a day now depending on how my hand feels, but I can't help but to think about how these people practiced 10hrs + and how terribly behind I feel.

I guess what I am struggling with, and it's probalby something all serious musicians have to deal with one way or the other.. is the fact that you see yourself as being competent, and professional but you realize you are no where near the level of the people you look up to.  For me I almost feel like I'd rather not do music at all if i can make that kind of achievement. I know music is ultimately about self express and the desire to express, but what if you feel like what you are trying to express seems unworthy, because you don't have the ability to create music with the depth that you want it to have? 

I guess I(We) can all take comfort in the fact that  we tried very hard, we worked our butts off.. but i wonder.. maybe we didnt want it enough.. When I  hear that Gilbret Arenas practiced 100,000 jump shots during off season, it makes me wonder how much of  what we can achieve is based on will power, but its hard to tell how gifted he was in the first place.  Sometimes I feel like all this is not up to me at all.. Some people practice twice as much as I do , and looking at their posture, i wonder why they don't have major problems.I know there are people who have the same kind of desire and talent, but some goes through major injuries, life changing events, they are so many things that can happen in life.. it seems like  the great musician we look up to were blessed with the right circumstances along with natural abilities

It may be that you are a successful concert pianists, but you might feel like your accomplishment seems marginal compared to what Horowitz or Gleen Gould have achieved on the instruments..You may be a very accomplished composer, but where does your music stand in the face of great composers like Brahms or Beethoven? you look at those giants and you just wonder why you are doing it in the first place, and you wonder whether you have it in you to do what they did, create something special like that.

[keypeg]

I hear that many of the greats often questioned their abilities or the level of their performance, which was never up to the standard they envisioned.  It would seem that this very unease and dissatisfaction is what drove them to excel.  Isn't it generally novices who are often confident and believe they are playing extremely well, this very attitude being a stumbling block?

Your goal should not be to play as well as anyone else.  If your goal is reaching heights in the music itself, and you then work at improving whatever specific things there are within that goal, then your playing will constantly improve - that's probably the real way of emulating the masters.

I don't know if that makes sense or even if it's correct.

KP

[etcetra]

Keypeg

what you say makes perfect sense.  I e-mailed jean michel pilc about the same thing and he was kind enough to reply..  he pretty much said the same thing, with less words.   I guess when i hear the people i look up to, I am in great awe of what they can do and It really opens up my ears and possibilities as to what i can do with music, but at the same time its hard not to feel overwhelmed, insecure and wonder whether I am capable of reaching that kind of musical heights. 

Its hard to find the balance between asking yourself for more and doing it to the point of beating yourself up.  I wonder how great artists deal with their insecurities and doubts.. i know some of them went through extreme phase of doubt.. it seems like the people i talked to were so immersed in their own craft that they don't really bother to think about these stuff anymore.. maybe it has to do with maturity more than it has to do with music.

[Petter]

I have a simular background and I recognize alot of these thoughts. You say that you just graduated. There´s must be alot of things that you feel you havent´t had the time to digest yet. And you´re only 28 so you´re still young and it´s not like you´re going to die anyway soon. Don´t compare yourself with all those other pianists just because they´re younger. You might have a simular career when you´re 40 or 50. Maybe it won´t even matter by then. The self critiscm is something you always have to deal with or you would never strive to develop at all. Even Bill Evans thought that he didn´t have the dimension the play solo piano.

[keypeg]

What I am still reading, though, is that you are looking at "person" at "peformance" by person instead of shifting to the object of the art itself.  The musician's focus and goal will be one-track on the music and any aspect of that music.  Some of it may be technical, and some of it may involve how he uses his body.  But he will be focussing on the music and its elements, keeping his focus on these, and not concern himself with "self".  That is a trick to learn.  The greats are inspiring, but if you wish to learn from them, you must be authentically yourself - a self that wishes to do justice to the music.  I don't know if that makes sense.  (I'm feeling a tad mystical today).

KP

[etcetra]

keypeg,

I dont think you sound mystical at all.. haha, in fact I am kind of amazed at how i am getting similar response from different people... that it requires a lot of patience and letting go of your self-awreness.. i guess there is a way to be critical about what you are doing and at the same time not take it "personally", thats the part I need to learn

Petter

thanks, its very true.  I feel like i have so many things worked out in my playing but a lot of stuff is just not coming out.. and well the fact that i was injury and having to go back at it was frustrating because i had less facility to do those things.  It seems like at one point the stuff you are trying to incoporate in your playing becomes more and more complicated that its hard to really make it a part of your playing.  For example.. like doing 3/4 hemiola over 4/4 (accenting every 4 th note on the triplet) i wonder how many hrs i worked on that and i am still having problem rushing it..I just wish i could somehow absorb these ideas faster, but it just takes time.  I guess knowing the potential of what i can create, its exciting but i have to be creaful not to be frustrated by it.

[keypeg]

Etcetera - you're almost there, but not quite.  As goals: Do not let go of your self awareness.  Do not stop being critical of yourself.  Can you see how both of these things still have to do with you, almost as though you were observing yourself?

Turn your attention on the music.  When you play, do what the music asks you to do.  When working with technique, turn it toward what it will do for the music.  Do not at any time think of self - turn everything toward the music.  See what happens.

[rc]

I've definitely felt the same way...  It's a sort of all-or-nothing attitude, mediocrity doesn't count.

Then I like to play with different perspectives, and remember how much I enjoyed listening to recordings of simple music before I knew that it was simple...  And that so long as the music is played well, that is how most people will experience it.  Which to me is the point of music.

Anyhow, in the end, I believe that it's better to keep too busy to entertain thoughts of self-doubt...  That just sticking to the task at hand is the best way to progress.

At work, just by taking it day by day, doing the best I could - one day I turned around and realized I'd become very good at my job.  It happened without my awareness. Bit by bit, just by keeping busy and always trying to do better.

[etcetra]

RC,

I am going to butch the quote but Bill Evans once said that he sometimes prefers amateur audience because "proffesionals have to fight to preserve the naivete that they have naturally" or something to that effect.  It's ironic how musicians can alienate themselves from the audience in search for profoundity.  Like you said, even simple music can be powerful, i mean there is something about  John Lennon playing "imagine" that's very moving, even though pianistically its very simple.  I guess its like this paradox, of having to reach for higher level of complexity and somehow make it simple and compelling as john lennon accompanying himself on the piano.  I guess thats why i will always respect bill evans, he developed so much during his career, but whatever he developed he used it musically.

Keypeg

ok i think i get it.. I think it's something i already know but i am somehow reluctant to accept it.  It's hard to silence these thoughts and give all to music, i guess, that "selflessness" is something I am still struggling to achieve.   okay this getting very zen here, but well, its probably important to have discussion about this from time to time. thanks

[vuvais]

hey all.

Even Liszt was threatened by Thalberg. yes...I stated the name: Liszt.

This suggested that he was evaluating himself like you are.

And people who started in their teenage years catch up quickly. No need to worry.

Be yourself...and let your personality or who you are reflect through your music.

And most importantly enjoy yourself on the piano.

[keypeg]

Keypeg

ok i think i get it.. I think it's something i already know but i am somehow reluctant to accept it.  It's hard to silence these thoughts and give all to music, i guess, that "selflessness" is something I am still struggling to achieve.

Ah, but selflesness doesn't enter into it.  You don't have to sacrifice anything nor give anything to music.  Just become fascinated and absorbed.  Become curious and delve.  You are giving to yourself.  When you become lost in music and it's meaning, it is better than watching a good movie, and it involves you much deeper.

KP

[lina rose]

           People always tell us not to compare ourselves with others, but i can't help it. I'm in high school and if i think i got a bad grade in a test, the first thing i do is ask other students their grades. Turns out i didn't do that bad. What bothers me is the one student who got to score all the points. The next test comes. This time, i get the highest grade and that student doesn't do that well.           
          What i'm trying to say is that sometimes it's a matter of luck, if i am at the right place, at the right time. Maybe these people you look up to were lucky that they were given piano lessons since the age of 5 and that they were heard by powerful people who were willing to make them sucessful. Maybe you have even more potencial than them, but you didn't get that lucky, which doesn't mean you should stop trying. From what i've read in your post, you love jazz and the piano deeply, but the fact that you haven't reached the level of these people has transformed this love into a competition and it's giving you a hard time. Of course, there's competition in everything, especially if this is your profession, but there's always a reason for why we do certain things and it seems like the reason why you practice the piano has changed.
         We should always set our goals, but they should be sensible. I believe you're a great pianist, you shouldn't think you're wasting your time. I really look up to you, i really do. You started late and you have gotten so far. I really regret that i stopped taking lessons when i was 12, considering that i had started when i was 9. Two years ago, i started practicing again - i was 14 -, but i had forgotten many things and i didn't have a teacher. It feels quite hard to do a lot of progress and, when i see those videos of 6 year-olds playing whole pieces by rachmaninov, i want to give up and never touch a finger on the piano again. But i can't help it. I love playing and i'm not incompetent.
        In my opinion, if you keep playing and practicing not worrying about being at the same level as them, you'll get even in a higher level. I don't think practicing 15 hrs a day will help a lot, it could even make things worse.
        By the way, i love the fact that you're a jazz pianist. I love jazz and i barely see jazz lovers here.

[faulty_damper]

           People always tell us not to compare ourselves with others, but i can't help it. I'm in high school and if i think i got a bad grade in a test, the first thing i do is ask other students their grades. Turns out i didn't do that bad.

According to Learning Theory, compare and contrast is how we learn.  It's a fundamental principle of learning.  It is taking something that you know, placing it next to something that seems similar, and then creating a context for it.  This is no different than comparing yourself to others.  It must be done.  Otherwise, you are not learning.

When people say "don't compare yourself" they fail to understand how fundamental it is to do so.  Without it, you can't put yourself in context.  After all, you are as human as everyone else.

[rc]

I see some dangers of comparing with others.

They're better can either be discouraging, or encouraging.  Depending on how you look at it.  It's obviously more useful to think "wow, look at that kid.  One day I'd like to be able to do that".

But I've found the worse danger is to be better by comparison.  It tends to make me complacent.  When I was younger, I always used to hear how good I was on guitar, the effect it had was that I quit putting so much effort into it.  "All right, I seem to be better than everyone else.  I can chill now".

I like how Victor Hugo put it, lemme find that quote...  "It is certain that one of the paths of virtue leads to the sin of pride, a bridge built by the devil himself"

So in my story, I became proud, and then rusty.  An embarassing combination, as my reputation became better than me.  

Instead, I've decided it's better to compare myself to an ideal perfection (tempered with an understanding of my limitations).  Perfection is impossible, so it makes the best ideal.  Because we can never attain it, we'll always be improving. ('Tempered with an understanding of limitations' - so we don't go insane!).

[rc]

Thanks for that quote btw, etcetra!  It's been floating around in my head for a while now.  Now I'm curious to hear some Bill Evans.  My first piano teacher always raved about him

[keypeg]

More to the point, it serves no purpose to compare oneself to others.  If watching others perform, should it not rather be with an attitude of curiosity as in "What did he do to achieve this particular thing?"

[etcetra]

Hi all,

Gosh i didn't realize there were so many responses, i am sorry for the delay in writing back.   I think it can be very tricky to compare yourself.. I know that any serious jazz musicians do a transcription.. we spend a lot of time learning solos by great players and trying to integrate some elements of their playing in our way.. In some ways we have to compare ourselves, because we are consciously asking ourselves what we can do and what we can't do and try to work on those things we don't have in our playing yet.

The trick is to be inspired and be absorbed by the learning and not feel insecure about what you don't have or what you are not.  When i am at my best i can so absorbed in the learning that i forget about those things.. it seems so petty and waste of time to think "oh gosh i can't do %^&* and the piano" .

When I see great performers i see themselves so immersed in their playing, its like they are no different than the music they are playing.. I doubt that they are worried about their competition and those things at that moment.  I know music is competitive, I realized that  auditions and competitions  or such a strange enviroment to play music in.  I think the whole point of those things to find a way to forget about yourself and really be yourself, your best no matter what, and not let any fear or self awareness get to you.. its not about who is better or worse, its about you feeling the need to express yourself and doing that as best as you can.

I was watching the last samurai and I thought the whole idea of bushido and doing music was very similar.. you spend a lot of time training the mind and body to prepare for the battle or performance.. you have to learn the physical skill of how to do those things, and you have to mentally prepare yourself so that fear or any other emotion won't get in the way of what you are doing.. I guess I can take comfort in the fact that at least in piano you don't have to deal with the fear of losing your life..

[etcetra]

RC,

thanks for all your replies, and i am glad you liked the quote. I think "Sunday at the village vangard" and "waltz for debby" is a good place to start for Bill Evans.  He kind of reminds me of Glenn Gould in the sense that the are both very articulate about their philosophy on music and i enjoy reading their interviews as much as i like listening to them.

lina rose,

thanks so much for your kind words.  It's so strange how we attached our value and confidence into what we do, sometimes its music sometimes it test.. its petty.  I know ppl who is always talking about who is better and worse.. but lately i realized that there are so many great jazz pianists out there, and they all play so differently, and it seems like saying who is better or worse is just a waste of time.  I think if you can just ask yourself to be better everyday thats all you can ask for.

I know its frustrating to not have the best musical circumstances and feel like you are behind  but i remember one of my friend telling me "you are giving so much of yourself into music, what is the shame in doing that?" I think that person was right, whatever level you are at, it doesn't take away the fact that you are doing a noble thing.

It took me a while and i am still learning but i am more at peace with myself and music now than i was before ..there is a quote from Firday Night lights that's been stuck in my mind, and I think it really sums up how i want to be in life and in music.


"Being perfect is not about that scoreboard out there. It's not about winning. It's about you and your relationship with yourself, your family and your friends. Being perfect is about being able to look your friends in the eye and know that you didnt let them down because you told them the truth. And that truth is you did everything you could. There wasnt one more thing you could've done. Can you live in that moment as best you can, with clear eyes, and love in your heart, with joy in your heart? If you can do that gentleman - you're perfect! "

[lina rose]

  etcetra, i hope i've helped you at least a bit. Your post really touched me, since i often feel like you when you wrote it. I mean, i'm not a professional, but i'm always trying to get better and, sometimes, if i'm not as good as other people, i feel like i've failed and will never be good.
  It's great to read what you wrote in your reply and i love what your friend said ("you are giving so much of yourself into music, what is the shame in doing that?") and the Friday Night Lights quote. They made me feel much better.
  Well, i said i hoped i had helped you, but, honestly, you have already helped me a lot. Being able to talk to people all over the world about problems they have that i have as well is just a great feeling. Thank you so much.

[rc]

etc: I've been exploring Bill Evans a bit, youtube is a good place to sample.  I'm liking it!  Anyways, here's a little documentary that has that quote:

[etcetra]

RC,

Thats great, I have that DVD  .  I know he has terrible posture but i love the way he plays solo piano... he looks like he is praying to the music.

[lostinidlewonder]

It is amazing to see what the titans of music have achieved but is that exactly for me? What does my life require from my music? Some people flourish in the limelight, performing all over the world, becoming famous etc. But this life is not a life for everyone and not everyone has the need for it, they may want it but thats not enough.

We all have responsibility to give music to our community, no matter how large or small. I like to think that we musicians can exist everywhere, not just on the expensive concert halls and world famous locations. Music is a lot more than just putting it up on a pedestal and asking a large audience to say oo and ahh.

So too should you not be bothered with increasing your ability to an incredibly high level. This is something that we always will work on, but to put our complete focus on trying to achieve the most ultimate ability will make us miss out on life. All the musical greats, classical or jazz, all started out at a good level, but they changed, they adapated, they didn't always have the highest level that we see, and we also see that their highest level fades away as they age.

[mukubella]

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