The Bernhard conundrum

[general disarray]

First, I'm a Bernhard fan.  His advice in all these threads has always been thoughtful and supported with solid arguments.  His posts on technical exercises, however, have seemed to cause the most controversy.

So, I decided to make a little experiment.  For beginners, I was raised as a kid on Hanon, Czerny, Duvernoy, etc., etc.  I worked my way like a little trooper through all those tomes with the expert guidance of a great teacher.  Bored out of mind, but I was still a trooper.  I have no idea if these studies really helped build my technique or if they were just elaborate warm-ups for practicing the real repertoire.

Every teacher I had in conservatory admitted they never used exercises and found little value in them, except for student jury time when they had to play "scales in 6ths in contrary motion in the key of your Chopin, please." 

So, after a few years of no "finger exercises" at all, except Chopin Etudes, which count but don't count, I picked up my old Dohnanyi "Essential Finger Exercises for Obtaining a Sure Piano Technique."  I decided to zero in on one of my greatest weaknesses -- those damned double stops, mainly thirds.

Okay, so I've been beavering away on them for three months now, 40 minutes a day.  The GOOD news is that my playing of the double third EXERCISES is most impressive now.  I whiz right through them, where, at first, I spazzed out every other bar or so.

Okay, the BAD news:  for me, at least, it's not really been transferable to the other repertoire.  In fact, I noticed a strange klutziness in pieces where I formerly had real fluidity, like Chopin and Rachmaninov.  My hands feel strong but, well, almost, "muscle-bound."

I went back to the Dohnanyi, re-read his instructions for practicing in the Preface, and memorized the double third exercises (easy to do), practiced slowly and kept an eye on my hands, looking for any weird positions I was adopting or any tension.  Nothing amiss in either department.

So, I'm sure I'm practicing them correctly.  Again, I play the double thirds excercises like a virtuoso, but when I get to the real repertoire -- after a nice long rest -- I feel sluggish and clumsy.  Missed notes where I shouldn't miss them.  Spazzzing out at easy spots.

So, I stopped practicing the Dohnanyi for three days and just went back to my normal way of practicing.  Very slow playing of the repertoire to warm up. 

Alas, my previous "virtuosity"  has returned.  My playing is fluid again, as it used to be.

Sooooooo, has anyone else tried this experiment?  Do you think my results are just coincidental and meaningless?  I'm open to any and all interpretations here.

Please discuss!

[m19834]

Well, I am by no means a "Bernhard expert" but you could say I am a fan .  I have not done exactly as you have done, but I have done my own experiment of sorts.  Basically, each piece, each passage, it will have its very own and very unique set of problems (because it will have its own motional requirements) and we will need to find whatever the particular (to us) way of playing the piece/passage *easily* will be.  Taking a specific exercise like what you have done, and thinking it will somehow adjust your entire playing ability so as to work for every piece, every passage, every style is just not going to work (since each passage is entirely unique).  However, if you had a piece that had double thirds in it, you may find that your exercise actually is helpful in that spot.  This is one way in which exercises can be used and can be helpful.

I will say here though that most problems people have in playing has very little to do with whether or not they are using the "fingers correctly" (though there are some points in that realm, of course), and much more to do with whether or not they are using the body correctly.  Playing something like double thirds is not going to require the same style of body use as playing Rachmaninov will (unless there is a specific passage that relates), so you have to use your body in a different way for each. 

What I did was actually similar, though I was not aware of Bernhard at the time.  When I first started in Uni I had never done any "exercises" nor "technique" practice before in my life.  I never "warmed up" with anything in particular besides music, and I played my pieces as I played them (whether they were good or bad is besides the point as I will illustrate in a moment).  When it came time for me to schedule my recital, I became more "serious" and decided it was high time I put myself on a technical practice and exercise regime that consisted of czerny, scales, thirds, chords, arpeggios and some other stuff which I can't even remember at the time.  I realized two main things :

1.  The exercises were helpful (perhaps even extermely helpful) in the following ways :

-- I gained a much better concept of the entire keyboard and how it is layed out (which is a general need for everybody and can be handled in several ways).
-- I could play the exercises quite well.

2.  My pieces in and of themselves, and my facility in playing them did not improve.  At the time I did not understand why, but I sensed that I was doing something different in my exercises than I was doing in my pieces -- however, at the time I could not pinpoint nor name what that was and though I realized the need to try to transfer information from one to the other, I simply did not know how.

These days, I may invent exercises for myself but they will be specific to my specific needs.  In terms of developing a better map of the piano (which I seem to always feel the need to do), I would rather play a Bach inventions in all keys and in all modes.

[rc]

General Disarray, a question:  Are we talking about czerny/hanon type of exercises, or things like scales/chords/arpeggios?

*army salute*

[general disarray]

General Disarray, a question:  Are we talking about czerny/hanon type of exercises, or things like scales/chords/arpeggios?

*army salute*

Corporal rc, I am referring to Dohnanyi, sir.  Double thirds on steroids.  Hanon run amok.  Czerny on a crack binge.

*army salute*

p.s. To Major Karli:  thanks for your thoughtful response.  Food for thought . . . even better, a doggie treat for the brain.   

[rc]

sir, I don't have much to contribute then, sir!



I have too little experience with those sorts of exercises.  A little Dohnanyi, a bit of Hanon but that's about it.  Though I don't mind them for their puzzle-like challenge, they've fallen off my routine because I only have so much time to practice and there are higher priorities.

[general disarray]

Okay, lemme guess.  Y'all are sick and tired of the technical exercises vs. repertoire-for-technique debates here to bother to comment, right?

(With the notable exception of the redoubtable K and Corporal rc.)

But I notice other equally tired topics still getting lots of coverage.  Is that because they have "flame wars" built in? 

Okay, who can I insult?  C'mon.  Provoke me!

My question remains:  is not my experiment encapsulated in the first post something ANYONE else has experience with?

Experienced teachers out there?  Concert artists?  Hell, I'll take the feedback of a con artist at this point.

[Petter]

You can insult me, I´ll give you a reason.
 You little disgusting orthoxdox scale grinding pro hanonist with notes coming out of every hole of you. Go back and dwell in the shadows where you belong!

[general disarray]

You can insult me, I´ll give you a reason.
 You little disgusting orthoxdox scale grinding pro hanonist with notes coming out of every hole of you. Go back and dwell in the shadows where you belong!

Why, you little heroin, skin-popping crackhead methfreak jazzer . . . jump on that quadra-diminished 13th chord and improvise until you're underwear's friggin' outerwear!

Okay, we got that started.  Now, where's the SERIOUS debate.  Huh?

[goldentone]

I'm just bewildered that practicing a specific exercise, scales or thirds for example, would
not carry over to the real world of playing/working on a piece.  I use technical exercises
and am very aware of their benefit. 

I believe Bernhard is correct and I agree that it is ridiculous to spend so much time on technical exercises while we could be playing repertoire.  Perhaps in the future I will abandon exercises and let repertoire alone feed my technique.  For now I cannot yet give up the Hanons that I play.

[m19834]

I'm just bewildered that practicing a specific exercise, scales or thirds for example, would
not carry over to the real world of playing/working on a piece.  I use technical exercises
and am very aware of their benefit.

Well, firstly, there are truly only a few fundametals to consider regarding technique itself : 

Posture :  "Balanced Body"
                       -- Joint Alignment
                       -- "Balancing" on one finger, weight transfer from finger to finger

Forearm Rotations
Circular Motions
Passing of the Thumb/Shifting (or re-orienting) of the hand
Proper use of "power"
Independence and Coordination of the hands

These fundamentals (should) form the basic groundwork for all motions at the instrument, however, it is essential to always keep in mind the actual purpose of what we do at the instrument : sound and of course, music.  Sound and music are ultimately the only guides for our motions.  It is sometimes necessary for the above-mentioned fundamentals to be consciously programmed, only to finally become a subconscious whisper.

Whether I am playing Hanon or anything else, these are the strictly technical things that I am considering when I move about the piano, and they have become more of an investigative process should something not be working (should I not be achieving the sound or ease of motion that I am ultimately looking for).  And, once again, as important as these things can be, it is ultimately a clear and precise aural image of the sound(s) I am trying to achieve that reveal to me the exact motional requirements to succeeding at producing the exact sound that I am wanting (as Marik has often pointed out) -- the sound must ultimately govern the motion (and this will lead into the infintesimal detail of what we are *doing* with ourselves at the instrument). 

All of this is not to be confused with "practice techniques" (like "dopping notes" or yes, "exercises").  The point of any exercise is (should be) to actually exercise the basic principles of motion, and what we do at the instrument is nearly all about motion (including sound).  Motion, motion, motion vs. "positioning" -- we are always in motion and this is what produces the sound (but it is the sound or aural impression which initiates and guides the motion).  "Positioning" and placement matters, but only in the respect that our motions aim for it and then we are gone from it and into another.  "Positioning" matters in piano playing in a similar fashion as it matters in walking, running, skipping, jumping.

Of course, aside from the limitations of language (try to describe -- in typing -- to a person, how to jump into the air !) it is nearly pointless for me to be writing this stuff out on the sheer grounds that this has all been discussed before (only to have apparently cropped up again ... and again)  .  I'm very sleepy and wherever I am at in the post, so be it, as I am going to go start my morning tea, thank you very much  .

[ahinton]

Well, firstly, there are truly only a few fundametals to consider regarding technique itself : 

Posture :  "Balanced Body"
                       -- Joint Alignment
                       -- "Balancing" on one finger, weight transfer from finger to finger

Forearm Rotations
Circular Motions
Passing of the Thumb/Shifting (or re-orienting) of the hand
Proper use of "power"
Independence and Coordination of the hands

These fundamentals (should) form the basic groundwork for all motions at the instrument, however, it is essential to always keep in mind the actual purpose of what we do at the instrument : sound and of course, music.  Sound and music are ultimately the only guides for our motions.  It is sometimes necessary for the above-mentioned fundamentals to be consciously programmed, only to finally become a subconscious whisper.

Whether I am playing Hanon or anything else, these are the strictly technical things that I am considering when I move about the piano, and they have become more of an investigative process should something not be working (should I not be achieving the sound or ease of motion that I am ultimately looking for).  And, once again, as important as these things can be, it is ultimately a clear and precise aural image of the sound(s) I am trying to achieve that reveal to me the exact motional requirements to succeeding at producing the exact sound that I am wanting (as Marik has often pointed out) -- the sound must ultimately govern the motion (and this will lead into the infintesimal detail of what we are *doing* with ourselves at the instrument). 

All of this is not to be confused with "practice techniques" (like "dopping notes" or yes, "exercises").  The point of any exercise is (should be) to actually exercise the basic principles of motion, and what we do at the instrument is nearly all about motion (including sound).  Motion, motion, motion vs. "positioning" -- we are always in motion and this is what produces the sound (but it is the sound or aural impression which initiates and guides the motion).  "Positioning" and placement matters, but only in the respect that our motions aim for it and then we are gone from it and into another.  "Positioning" matters in piano playing in a similar fashion as it matters in walking, running, skipping, jumping.

Of course, aside from the limitations of language (try to describe -- in typing -- to a person, how to jump into the air !) it is nearly pointless for me to be writing this stuff out on the sheer grounds that this has all been discussed before (only to have apparently cropped up again ... and again)  .  I'm very sleepy and wherever I am at in the post, so be it, as I am going to go start my morning tea, thank you very much  .

I hope that you enjoyed the tea...

All of this makes such eminent good sense that the only addition that it occurs to me to make here (if a non-pianist may indeed be permitted such brief indulgence) is that the discipline of consistent economy of movement at the instrument should be a paramount consideration for at least two reasons, one being conservation of physical energy (particularly vital when playing music that is especially demanding of physical and mental stamina) and the other being avoidance of anything that might distract from or otherwise interfere with the concentration on projecting the music itself.

Best,

Alistair

[goldentone]

Well, firstly, there are truly only a few fundametals to consider regarding technique itself : 

Posture :  "Balanced Body"
                       -- Joint Alignment
                       -- "Balancing" on one finger, weight transfer from finger to finger

Forearm Rotations
Circular Motions
Passing of the Thumb/Shifting (or re-orienting) of the hand
Proper use of "power"
Independence and Coordination of the hands

These fundamentals (should) form the basic groundwork for all motions at the instrument, however, it is essential to always keep in mind the actual purpose of what we do at the instrument : sound and of course, music.  Sound and music are ultimately the only guides for our motions.  It is sometimes necessary for the above-mentioned fundamentals to be consciously programmed, only to finally become a subconscious whisper.

Whether I am playing Hanon or anything else, these are the strictly technical things that I am considering when I move about the piano, and they have become more of an investigative process should something not be working (should I not be achieving the sound or ease of motion that I am ultimately looking for).  And, once again, as important as these things can be, it is ultimately a clear and precise aural image of the sound(s) I am trying to achieve that reveal to me the exact motional requirements to succeeding at producing the exact sound that I am wanting (as Marik has often pointed out) -- the sound must ultimately govern the motion (and this will lead into the infintesimal detail of what we are *doing* with ourselves at the instrument). 

All of this is not to be confused with "practice techniques" (like "dopping notes" or yes, "exercises").  The point of any exercise is (should be) to actually exercise the basic principles of motion, and what we do at the instrument is nearly all about motion (including sound).  Motion, motion, motion vs. "positioning" -- we are always in motion and this is what produces the sound (but it is the sound or aural impression which initiates and guides the motion).  "Positioning" and placement matters, but only in the respect that our motions aim for it and then we are gone from it and into another.  "Positioning" matters in piano playing in a similar fashion as it matters in walking, running, skipping, jumping.

Of course, aside from the limitations of language (try to describe -- in typing -- to a person, how to jump into the air !) it is nearly pointless for me to be writing this stuff out on the sheer grounds that this has all been discussed before (only to have apparently cropped up again ... and again)  .  I'm very sleepy and wherever I am at in the post, so be it, as I am going to go start my morning tea, thank you very much  .

Well, I see nothing in what you've written that I would take issue with, and from what I see you are not disagreeing with me in my observation.  Your presciptive technical advice I am a most willing pupil to, as I think you know.  The infinitesimal aside, of which the proper fundamentals you have listed allow for in the comfortable, efficent, and free mobility of the entire pianist, it does seem evident to me that as multiplication tables form a base for the higher math, so specific exercises form a quickening base from which the repertoire draws. 

One day we will discuss this together at the piano. 

Another lump, please. 

[m19834]

I hope that you enjoyed the tea...

Well, I did (for the most part) though I must confess that it was actually coffee  .  Mostly decaf though !

All of this makes such eminent good sense that the only addition that it occurs to me to make here (if a non-pianist may indeed be permitted such brief indulgence) is that the discipline of consistent economy of movement at the instrument should be a paramount consideration for at least two reasons, one being conservation of physical energy (particularly vital when playing music that is especially demanding of physical and mental stamina) and the other being avoidance of anything that might distract from or otherwise interfere with the concentration on projecting the music itself.

Best,

Alistair

Yes, that's true !  I have on that list "proper use of power" and what you mention is actually part of that deal.  I didn't want to say it exactly, but there are times when a person must be more "firm" than others, and it has to be followed by a time to relax and conserve.  So, yes, there are plenty of antics in general that would certainly detract from both the aural presentation (unless the audience-member is closing his/her eyes) as well as the pianist's stamina.

An interesting subject though, along those lines, as something that may quietly lay beneath a person's decision to be needlessly antically inclined (), is the desire to feel comfortable -- and free in that comfort -- in one's body.  This is actually something very important, even as a pianist who sits at a piano (vs. a person whom is not as latched to such an instrument -- like a singer, for example) and doesn't wish to use more motion than is necessary for the music.  Actually, feeling comfortable in one's body (and knowing oneself, as has been suggested by Marik in another thread) are very key in being a confident performer.  However, though a person may feel psychologically capable of putting on a show of antics despite what s/he may look like while doing so, I think that kind of body and movement exploration is better used in other ways (like dance, for example -- though that is not to imply that there are or should be needless motions in dance, either).  Afterall, it is the state of comfort and freedom itself that really matters.

Well, I see nothing in what you've written that I would take issue with, and from what I see you are not disagreeing with me in my observation.  Your presciptive technical advice I am a most willing pupil to, as I think you know.  The infinitesimal aside, of which the proper fundamentals you have listed allow for in the comfortable, efficent, and free mobility of the entire pianist, it does seem evident to me that as multiplication tables form a base for the higher math, so specific exercises form a quickening base from which the repertoire draws.

Yes, sure.  I am learning this more and more.  In my example that I gave as my regime (which was actually about 2 or more hours worth of exercises), I was missing some very important information about how things actually work.  That doesn't mean (and it's not actually my point) that what I did in that case had not had any kind of (positive) impact on my playing, because it did.  But, there is an element of it for me where I see that if a person knows why they are doing the exercises and what they are trying to achieve, and it *should* be a matter of following a natural path for the body (otherwise, like doing Hanon the way that Hanon describes (which is a things that Bernhard has pointed out), no thank you!), then it doesn't matter what a person is playing -- at least not physically -- so why not play the music ?  However, psychologically may be another issue. 

For me personally, I realize that I am often very "distracted" by the music inside of me, and that seems to go against what I said in my post above as the music being the thing that guides us.  Of course the music is the purpose for the motion, and it should be the purpose for the exercise, but sometimes a person just needs to get comfortable with a motion without trying to express the music through every, tiny little nuance (which is how I am almost always feeling).  So, psychologically, it may be worth it to extract the passage, or find another exercise that relates so as to not feel quite the same sort of "artistic obligation" as though a wolf is nipping at the heels (which is actually what my insides feel like !).

In any case, my only reservation with anything regarding the piano (be it teachers, students, exercises, inefficient motions) is that of time and energy wasting.  The End.

[lostinidlewonder]

Exercises, very important tools for the developing pianist. A while back I started a thread on Hanon being very important for beginners and had some good discussions with Bernhard and others there.
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,13583.0.html
 
 For the advanced pianist it might in fact be useless to practice exercises on their own because we can acquire the same results in pieces we play, and also have more enjoyment in the process.

The thing I have found when I was young exercises helped me to focus on my problem, and helped me to repeat the problem over and over again in many different positions. However now, I do not have to do multiple examples of the same thing. I merely reflect on the problems I might face in the pieces I play. This might require that I play that passage on its own many times, it might even require that I develop a particular pattern, a reduction of notes that I can play easily and leave only the hard ones. So in fact when you get more advanced the exercises you create come from altering the piece you are trying to learn.

Sometimes no alteration needs to be made on the piece you learn and simply you are identifying which bounds you must repeat the phrase of music. Advanced musicians do not have to start at the beginning of the phrase to practice our difficulties, we can pin point exactly where the problem occurs and then set the bounds for practice around that.

Advanced musicians must learn how to develop and apply exercise to pieces they play when they are faced with difficulties, this will act as a catalyst towards mastering your problems. However developing an efficient exercise to deal with your problems is a task itself. I find it a waste of time to go study the action in a separate exercise, then try to apply that to the difficulty you find in your piece that is what you did when you where beginner/intermediate, it works but it is not as efficient and does not demand the musical thinking that an advanced student must have when tackling the pieces they learn.

Musical context to exercises are so important. For the advanced student this is what is of greatest interest when doing them. But for the beginner and intermediate, exercises are there to help balance the hand, learn how to control the group of notes with one position of the hand. Sometimes the advanced student has control issues, in that case you must use the exercises to sense your control, however more often than not for the advanced we have do not have control issues as such, but the control we are utilizing negatively effects the desired sound of the piece we play.

[teresa_b]

I think some people have made excellent points, so I have little to add.  I agree with exercises up to a point, especially for beginners.  But once you are proficient in the basics, you then have to focus practicing techniques on the particular challenges posed by your repertoire.  Why is a particular passage hard?  What do you need to do in order to produce the sound you're after?  I try to analyze the "why" for myself, and then do different things--fingerings, hand positions, body position, relaxation of shoulder or arm, etc etc. 

For example, as I worked on Mozart PC no 9 last year, I started doing a sort of "traditional" warm-up, say, of E-flat scales, arpeggios, etc--and it did me only minimal good--when I played parts of the piece, I was getting fatigue in my forearms.  But when I started looking at the most pervasive motif --relentless forearm rotation that went on and on in both hands--I realized all I had to do (click your heels three times, Dorothy...) was realize the necessity of doing this rotation automatically when needed.  The rotation itself is easy--but ignore it at your peril and supreme fatigue! 

It could be that all that practicing of the exercises in thirds did "tighten up" your hands in a way that made some pieces less fluid.  Sounds like you figured it out, though.

Have fun!
Teresa

[theodore]

When a pianist analyses certain passages then he or she could easily pencil in hints which facilitate easier execution of these formerly difficult passages.

For instance in one of the Bach inventions I discovered that if the hand moved slowly from the white keys into the black key region the passage almost fell into place without much effort.  I immediately penciled in “Blacks” just before the passage was to be played.
 
I also pencil in large arrow pointers which alert me to the passing of a theme from hand to hand. I also pencil in chord symbols such as:     C    for C major,     c     for c minor,     C7    for the C dominant 7th chord,     c0     for any diminished chord and     C+     for the augmented chord.

This editing does wonders and you learn pieces super fast.

Theodore

[Bob]

I havent' read all this.

But I've focused on technique a lot.  And gotten technical results.  Yeh!  It does seem to be locked into it's own little area sometimes, but you can make the exercises a little more "literature-like."  If I'm doing thirds in a five finger position and not moving around much, it makes sense that when there are thirds moving around in actual music it's a little different.  Or if I do all white keys and the music has black keys.  Just change up the exercises a little, broaden them, and it will take care of it.  

I also notice the tech work does nothing for reading.  Surprise, surprise.  I wasn't focusing on that.  I might have the physical ability to do it, but it take s a little longer to absorb the music mentally.

[0range]

The thing I have found when I was young exercises helped me to focus on my problem, and helped me to repeat the problem over and over again in many different positions.

First, let me say that I can't agree more. For the beginner, the allure of exercises is that it is an insurmountable challenge to look at a piece and be able to derive an exercise from it.

This might require that I play that passage on its own many times, it might even require that I develop a particular pattern, a reduction of notes that I can play easily and leave only the hard ones. So in fact when you get more advanced the exercises you create come from altering the piece you are trying to learn.

A good teacher, for a beginner, should be able to do exactly this. Not only does he see immediately what will present problems for the student, but he can devise an exercise from it. (whether this is simply the passage, or an outline with difficult notes removed, or multiple outlines that begin extremely simply and progress to the full score)

It is this, in my opinion, that renders technical exercises unnecessary, as any piece can be tackled in such a fashion.

That said, there is a complete difference between the teacher that assigns an exercise to a student to pinpoint an exact technical or musical deficiency, and one that throws a book of Czerny at a student in the blind hope that the exercises he's practicing will apply to the pieces he's learning. The former teacher is essentially doing the same thing as the repertoire approach, he's just too lazy or tradition-bound to write his own.

So, while two equally motivated students under equally knowledgeable teachers - one preferring technical exercises, and one preferring a repertoire based approach - will eventually arrive at the same place, the latter student will unquestionably have a much larger repertoire, which is the entire point, right?

[gerryjay]

dear sir general sir whatever!
i had a very similar experience with a interesting difference: it was playing guitar, my former instrument. well, let me tell you what happened.

i did study, in my undergraduate years, castelnuovo-tedesco's sonata for guitar, a nightmarish piece of this instrument repertory.
then, when it was cool enough to me and, after playing its separate movements in students' colective recitals, i decided to propose it in a full-lenght recital, together with some other works of the composer, previously studied. well, that was the beggining of such an amazing experience...

the recital was very fine until its grand finale: the sonata's mighty fourth movement. oh boy...what a mess. after almost an hour of music, both my hand failed in the fast figurations and arpeggios and the result was pure crap. lots of flaws, very little strength, very very little speed...in other words, the bravura turned into a tenerezza! 

shortly after, i travelled to have some classes and - as it wasn't enough - my teacher occupied three and a half hours of classes pointing out problems and proposing solutions to some pitfalls in my approach with that. it was so frustrating that i called a day, and abandon the work.

after sometime, i decided to resume the study, but i thought that i should improve my technical means to render it as i wish to. so, i began studying the scales, right hand arpeggi, tricky passages. well, anything that could be the slightest problem together with a bunch of standard technique related to that. it took about an hour a day, for almost a month, until i ended up playing those exercises at virtuoso level. but the results were not in the sonata itself, especially because my playing was keeping mindless.

i did stop it for some weeks, and then, finally then, the results were amazing. nothing was a problem anymore, i could play it far above my planned tempo, flawless or almost. in the next recital, i scheduled the work and it was very cool.

to me, it's undeniable that exercise, practice and time span were decisive in the solution of this work. when you say that there was not a direct transfer of ability from the studies to the "real works", i think that's quite natural. btw, now in my piano studies i apply this directly: what is complex, or "difficult", in my very first sight-readings, i develop exercises and a plan of attack to solve. each new work it comes more naturally and faster. so, that's a very good way to me to work.

well, about bernhard. he's a great person, with a great heart. i feel very lucky to did find his writings up here, because many of them made me think and develop my ways of both studying and teaching.

did i went too much off-topic?  hope it is of any help.

best!

[lostinidlewonder]

So, while two equally motivated students under equally knowledgeable teachers - one preferring technical exercises, and one preferring a repertoire based approach - will eventually arrive at the same place, the latter student will unquestionably have a much larger repertoire, which is the entire point, right?

For me I don't see this as one way or the other. That is, I don't believe we purely acquire improvement through technical exercise or pieces alone. In fact we must do both together, but how we apply technical exercise to learning our pieces is a more intelligent way about combining the two.

For a beginner we should in fact make the distinction between technical exercises and pieces, as we improve the line that separates them becomes less and less. For example, Chopin etudes are technically based pieces with great musical value as well, the same can be said for Liszt's Transcendentale etudes. For the more advanced student this technical practice is learned and/or developed through pieces.

However even when tackling these pieces the student might find it beneficial to develop a precise area of repetition or alteration for practice sake. Instead of always playing what is written, sometimes we can take short cuts to physical mastery over a passage by reducing the music initially. The exact method of reduction or alteration or even the need to do this to the sheet music is very personal and different for everyone, however it does highlight a personal usage and development of tools to tackle technical difficulties we face in pieces we study. Often we will catch ourselves repeating passages we like the feel of, or want to improve upon, these are our creations of piece based exercises to practice away the piece we try to master.

A key point is that we do not repeat music as it is written all the time. We must be able to segment it, phrase it individually out, be able to practice from areas which provide us greatest improvement. How often do us teachers get annoyed when students cannot play from a specific bar since their muscular memory is queued from the start of the piece constantly! It is a waste of time, and developing pianists, even advanced pianists will catch themselves unnecessarily playing easy passages they shouldn't while practicing.

Acquiring technique through pieces is the best way of course. But how to develop exercises to intelligently iron out our difficulties we face in pieces, that is an important tool at our disposal, also it keeps us focused on the task.

[gruffalo]

It's interesting reading all these debates about whether exercises are good or not, but i think it is time that someone actually made a detailed topic dedicated to a precise analytical practise method for certain sets of exercises. this would benefit me, and im sure my anothers, much more than the endless topics that never really conclude in any way whether doing the exercises are right or not. Regardless of how often this issue is brought up, they never bring a definitive answer and people are still going to go on and experiment for themselves whether it is right or wrong. Personally, i have never had the fortune of having a teacher who trained me well technically with the form of exercises or using repertoire due to the fact that i either didnt have the money to invest in that kind of teacher or i didnt know about the importance of doing the exercises in the first place.

i do believe exercises can help. in my case, i have grown up with bad finger coordination. i have quite flexible wrists and my ablilty to had leaps and jumps and to play accurately is ok. but i have a severe problem in playing things that need first finger work and the use of 3,4 and 5 and i am quite sure that exercises like hanon and schmidt can solve these problems.

having spoken about teachers i cannot, however,  deny the fact that they have been a source of inspiration and have developed me in some sort of way, both musically and technically, but my use of 3, 4, 5 especially in the right hand (strangely, because i am actually right handed) are in critical need of attention.

i have attempted exercises of various sorts. they have benefited me to a certain extent, but i know i can get more out of them if i know how to practice them.

my current teacher seems to have a very natural technique and had this from a very early age and obtained it very quickly. i have asked for help with exercises and he has tried, but i dont think he has the knowledge to help solve my problems.

the way i practice schmidt is to go very slowly through the exercises, transposing to different keys, with my other fingers covering the other notes. i try to move each finger downwards (not lifting, as i have been told this isnt a good idea) and concentrating on getting a fairly strong sound without moving any other fingers.

the specific problems i have at the moment are the fact that when using my 4th finger on right hand (and occasionally with LH), my 5th finger pokes straight out forward towards the keyboard lid. i first tried to solve this by allowing my 5th finger to drop with my 4th finger (effectively playing with both fingers, but not striking a second key). i found that this helped,  a bit, with the the passage in Chopin 10/4 where the thumb is held and the 345 fingers are used in chromatics but didnt help much further and i noticed an increase in unreliablity in the 4th finger in other areas of piano. with the fact that this started not to help, and that my LH 4th was doing ok without dropping the 5th with it, i stopped this way of playing 4.

another problem i have is with LH descending scales. take for instance Bb major. when i play the the 3 and 4 on F and Eb, my fingers, hand and arm get very tense.

I apologize if i mixed this cry of help with a partial rant, but i would very much appreciate if somebody could help with these problems and also be kind enough to post a guide on how to play exercises.

Gruff

[lostinidlewonder]

It's interesting reading all these debates about whether exercises are good or not, but i think it is time that someone actually made a detailed topic dedicated to a precise analytical practise method for certain sets of exercises. this would benefit me, and im sure my anothers, much more than the endless topics that never really conclude in any way whether doing the exercises are right or not.

Although I find it incredibly difficult to write a practice method which helps everyone equally (which is impossible btw) in the Hanon thread I created I tried to describe its application, how to defend against bad technique, what it means to play with balance and control rather than individual fingers pressing the notes.

the specific problems i have at the moment are the fact that when using my 4th finger on right hand (and occasionally with LH), my 5th finger pokes straight out forward towards the keyboard lid.

Problems with 4+5 is very common, exactly what you mean by pokes straight out forward towards the piano lid is too vague for me to exactly know whats wrong with your hand though. We can always creep towards our goal. Does your 5th finger move uncontrolled if you play the 4th finger just once? Or does it happen if you have to repeat a passage with 4+5 movements? IF it happens with repetitions then reduce the repetitions, pin point what amount of repetitions cause your hand to change form, then act against it. How to act against it is difficult to describe without sitting with you or having a video with multiple angles, but finding the exactly repetitive point which causes your problem is the first step.

another problem i have is with LH descending scales. take for instance Bb major. when i play
the the 3 and 4 on F and Eb, my fingers, hand and arm get very tense.

This is a more clear insight into your problems. You will find this F and Eb become more and more difficult for the LH as the hand passes the center of your body (that is move towards the right side of the piano past your center). First I would ask you to try to do this with the LH crossing your body over to the right side of the keyboard, observe the difficulty of the 34 in the Bb scale here. Then play with the LH all the way to the left of your body. You will find you have more freedom on movement if the LH is away from your center and to your left, this freedom on the hand is a key point to appreciate.

This would be my first exploration observing your LH to the center of the body, secondly I would notice that the pattern Bb A G F Eb is not the most natural shape for the hand. Ensure that when you play the 3 white notes that you do not give bais to the white note position, that is don't flatten the hand down to the white position, instead stay more inbetween white and black position so when the Eb comes in it doesn't disrupt the overall position of hand during the last notes what where white. Will need more elaboration on your problems and trails to correct it to get closer to its solution though.

[ramseytheii]

I think the reason we don't have a voice as strong as Bernhard's now, advocating what he did, is not only did he point out the weaknesses in practicing Hanon, some Czerny et al, but he provided a very clear, and impressively detailed, subscription for an alternative. 

Those of you who have read his anti-Hanon posts - have you also read his posts where he gives long lists of pieces that address the same technical issues that Hanon professes to, but with more artistry, creativity, and with more rewards of satisfaction for the player?

My point is, it isn't just a question of should we, or should we not practice mindless exercises.  The question is if we do, why; and if not, what should we do instead?  Bernhard's unique contribution to this otherwise eternal argument, was a detailed description, built out of experience, of the repertoire that would provide for the things which we imagine exercises alone accomplish.  And his conception of repertoire was the English one, which is to say, it was a graded conception.  It could work with beginner students, or advanced, or anywhere in between.

My personal theory is that technical exercises give benefit only in general ways, not in specific ways.  When you have a page of sixteenth notes repeating the same pattern over and over again, it is actually easier to concentrate than in a complicated, diverse passage from real music.  Yes I know it is easier to drift off too.  But the concentration which we apply to technical exercises achieves benefits that are also gained by concentration in real repertoire.  Since we all want to be able to play the piano and enjoy it, as much time as possible should be spent learning repertoire.  In my mind, that just rules out exercises.  But I had to leave it to Bernhard, to give another structure to learning.

Walter Ramsey

[rachfan]

I confess I'm not familiar with Bernhard or his conundrum.  I can say that as a kid, like many others, I paid my dues with Czerny, Hanon, and Schmidt.  For many, many years now, I have done none of those mindless exercises, instead honing technical skills through the study of new repertoire.  As a use of precious time, I find it more efficient, effective and rewarding.  Once or twice I week, I do take a few minutes to play all major and harmonic minor scales starting at either end of the Circle of Fifths and working through.  Same with the arpeggios.  Occasionally, I do only one independence of the fingers exercise that is more than sufficient for the purpose.  As opposed to the case with five-finger exercises, I find that because we often do encounter scalar or arpeggiated figuration in repertoire, that at least that kind of technical work is somewhat transferable.  All of the other stuff has little or no direct application in my opinion.  In coaching other pianists, some who seem bent on undertaking a huge technical regimen (as if they'll actually be helped by it), I instead strongly encourage them to certainly know scales and arpeggios, but to invest nearly all of their practice time more productively in solving technical problems within the real repertoire.  I know others will disagree with my point of view, and that's perfectly OK. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Those of you who have read his anti-Hanon posts - have you also read his posts where he gives long lists of pieces that address the same technical issues that Hanon professes to, but with more artistry, creativity, and with more rewards of satisfaction for the player?

I believe that leaving out on practicing exercises is missing out one part of piano knowledge. In truth everyone has done exercises, whether they tried it after acquiring their technique from pieces or from practice the exercises themselves, every experienced pianist has to in the end be able to play exercises properly and controlled when it confronts them. If we can't then there is something missing in our technical capability. This is a good simple pointing stick for many beginners to develop their fingers and even the more experienced can use exercises to test if they can do it, then quickly put it away .

Certainly exercises have less musical value than pieces, but they are important to learn because they add to our piano playing experience. For the more experienced student it is essential to know how to break down trouble passages they learn, in essence, create their own exercises out of their pieces to increase the rate at which they acquire control over their difficulty.

Prescribed exercises like Hanon have value pointing out specific fingering combinations and patterns we might come across in pieces we learn. This type of knowledge is essential for the beginner to grasp hold of and since they have little piece experience to draw from, exercises become a source for piano playing experience along side their piece study. You cannot have too many sources of knowledge and whatever gets the hands moving and the brain thinking is good.

Of course the application of exercises for the student by the teacher is very important. Mindless application which does not focus on the students weakness is useless and frustrating and a waste of time. Observing the intricate and very subtle difference between right and wrong execution of an exercise has to be very carefully pointed out. These subtle technical issues might not even be completely appreciated by the advanced student who tries exercises. The alterations that a teacher can make to Hanon for instance are also very various and can be changed to suit the more advanced student when tackling technical issues. This is not to say that these issues can be sorted out in the pieces they play, but sometimes an exercise can just be used as that extra bit of information for the student to use instead of solely depending on one source of knowledge through your piece.

Proper application of exercises is certainly not a mindless task, but it is very easy to miss the point of playing exercises if you don't have someone telling you to focus on what you are personally missing out and someone who can alter the exercise to aid in improving your hands.

I don't want students to feel that playing exercises will make them into complete pianists, but I want them to know that by using them they can have some confidence in their fingers. They can have some confidence in playing groups of notes at a time. They have some confidence in searching for group of notes in their pieces which they can also control with one position of the hand. This is a very bare basic knowledge of piano playing control which I think exercises highlight in a very simplistic model but with very complicated requirements for "perfect" playing.

...the concentration which we apply to technical exercises achieves benefits that are also gained by concentration in real repertoire.  Since we all want to be able to play the piano and enjoy it, as much time as possible should be spent learning repertoire.  In my mind, that just rules out exercises.

Certainly there is not as much musical interest in exercises that you can acquire from pieces, but you can always alter exercises to make them more musical and rhythmic. The real need to do this with exercises becomes useless if we have pieces to study, however, as a point of knowledge and piano experience we shouldn't ignore it.

The intelligence required to develop an exercises to deal with your technical issue hits on the same thinking we have when we try to break down difficult passages we learn in pieces. More experienced pianists tend to deal with new problems by relating it to patterns experienced before in other pieces. WE don't say, oh this movement is exactly like Opus blah number bler, but we recall our hands moving in that manner before, it is familiar to us but different.

So exercises are like a simplified version of piece study. Although the requirements for mastery over exercises demands are high, they are usually a single concept, which once mastered has a far reaching effect over the entire exercise. This far reaching nature of an improvement to the hands is important to observe and experience. We also experience this in piece we learn, so observing its usage in exercises helps us to notice them in action in pieces we learn.

[gruffalo]

Problems with 4+5 is very common, exactly what you mean by pokes straight out forward towards the piano lid is too vague for me to exactly know whats wrong with your hand though. We can always creep towards our goal. Does your 5th finger move uncontrolled if you play the 4th finger just once? Or does it happen if you have to repeat a passage with 4+5 movements? IF it happens with repetitions then reduce the repetitions, pin point what amount of repetitions cause your hand to change form, then act against it. How to act against it is difficult to describe without sitting with you or having a video with multiple angles, but finding the exactly repetitive point which causes your problem is the first step.

Hi. sorry i have taken so long to get back to this message. I havent been at the piano due to work and other stuff. Thank you for your detailed reply.

My 5th finger usually pokes out when i have to play a 4 and then a five straight after. if i place my hand over the notes in a position, in that particular passage, where i dont need to move my fifth finger to get to the note (just a simple downward action to hit it) it does not flick forward. however, in this passage i dont see how that is possible, because then i would have to jump the hand every four notes into different positions so that my 4th and 5th fingers lay exactly above the correct notes before using the fingers to depress the keys. Maybe im wrong and that is the correct way. If i take the thumb out and just play the chromatic notes but still using the same fingering as if the thumb were still being used, my fifth finger still pokes forward.

I also have a similar problem, but on a much easier passage at the end of the first page of Mozart Cminor fantasy k.475 with the three phrases of the notes GABCDCB with fingers 1234543. i work at it to get it even and relaxed, with minimal movement of the fingers and good sound, and then i come back the next day and it is all tense and awkward sounding again.

i will use your advise on scales today to practice them and see if i progress at all.

once again, thank you for your time to reply. i might be able to get some videos up for more specific detail. if you could still help with the video evidence, i would be very grateful.

Gruff