Please help me w/ fingering and speed...

[Shagdac]

I am working on a piece by Gottschalk, "The Union" and have come to a place where I could really use some help. At the last 2 lines of the 4th page, there is a Cadenza which is to be played very rapidly. I was hoping someone could tell me what would be the optimal fingering for this passage, and also which technique to practice for getting this up to speed all the way through. I will write the notes below, it begins on the HIGHEST "F" on the keyboard and goes down, EXCEPT for the notes written in small case..(they go up)

F, a-flat, E-flat, D, D-flat, a-flat, C, C-flat, d-flat, B-flat, A, A-flat, d-flat, G, G-flat, d-flat, F, E

g, E-flat, D, D-flat, a-flat, C, C-flat, d-flat, B-flat, A, A-flat, d-flat, G, G-flat, d-flat, F, E

g, E-flat, D, D-flat, a-flat, C, C-flat, d-flat, B-flat, A, A-flat, d-flat, G, G-flat, d-flat, F, E, E-flat

g, E-flat, D, D-flat, a-flat, C, C-flat, d-flat, B-flat, A, A-flat, d-flat, G, G-flat, d-flat, F, E

g, E-flat, D, D-flat, a-flat, C, C-flat, d-flat, B-flat, A, A-flat, d-flat, G, G-flat, d-flat, F, E,

g, E-flat, D, D-flat, A

Again, the smaller case letters are depicting going UP from the note before it, and the letters in caps are all going down. .....coming up, its mostly appedios, and more of a chromatic movement, however I'm concerned right now, with getting thru the part I've written out above. I know the notes....it's pretty much a pattern except for the 3rd grouping and at the end, but am worried about how to get it fast enough without no "breaks", they are all 32nd notes, and played the same thruout. This is all with the right hand, and the chord right before the cadenza is (RH) A-flat, C-flat, D-flat, and A-flat.....also played at the highest possible point on the keyboard.

I'm probably making this more difficult for myself than what I need to, but having trouble getting up to speed. Thought perhaps my figering was off...the fingering is not given...I've been using....starting on the F....
3,5,2,1,2,5,1,2,3,2,1,2,4,1,2,4,1,2,4,2,1,2.....and so on and so on.

I certainly would appreciate any suggestions and help w/ the fingering and best way to practice. Thanks SO much!

S

[bernhard]

Ok. First I would spend as much time as needed investigating the fingering. I would not even dream of seriously practising this passage before the fingering was decided.

Now, fingering is highly personal and I certainly did not give this passage enough thought to tell you that what I am suggesting below is the best fingering. Take it as something you may try and discard if not helpful.

When I play a passage like that, with black and white keys more or less equally distributed, I try whenever possible play the black keys with finger 2-4 and white keys with the thumb – but this is simply because I personally feel more comfortable with these fingers. Sometimes this is not possible. So here is what I tried (it worked all right for me):

1 – 4 – 2 – 1 – 2 – 5 – 2(1) – 1(2) – 4 – 2 – 1 – 2 – 4 – 1 – 3 – 1 – 3 – 2 – 4 – 2 – 1 – 2 – 5 – 2 – 1, etc.

You get the idea (I put in brackets an alternative fingering since both seemed fine to me).

It is not that different from the fingering you are using at the moment.

I use a lot of back and forth movement to negotiate the black keys also (e.g. Gb, db, F, E, g, Eb)

Once you decide on the fingering, I would suggest that you use these approaches:

1.      Practise the whole sequence by organising two or three notes in chords. For instance: F – [ab – Eb] – D – [Db – ab], etc. (notes in brackets to be played as chords). This will help ingrain both the fingering and the movements. It will also show you the spots that are bound to create problems at speed (the notes that can be made part of a chord will not present any problem; it is the isolated notes that will limit your speed).

2.      Practise the arm movement without worrying about the notes. Because this figuration keeps going back and forth (as opposed to a scale that moves in only one direction), your arm will have to keep making sudden changes of directions. These must be smooth, not jerky. So after you thoroughly memorise the notes, work on creating an “arm memory” so that the positioning of the hand by the arm becomes not only automatic, but also accurate.

3.      Use the note-groupings method: Get the first seven notes and  play  12, 23, 34, 45, 56, 67 -  then 123, 234, 345, 456, 567, etc, (remember?)

4.      Use rhythm variations (fast slow and then slow fast are the basic ones, but you can use others). Some people disagree with rhythm variations, but in my experience they are very powerful for this kind of passage ethe maust be played fast and even.

5.      Organise this passage in “clusters”. You must not think of wach note individually, but of groups of notes. The same way that when you read you recognise whole words, rather than isolated letters. Clustering is similar to changing gears in a car. You cannot go fast in first gear. Likewise you cannot go fast if you think in terms of individual notes. Choose a pattern that makes sense for you (although many times the music itself suggests the pattern) and cluster!

6.      A great deal of the difficulty with this sort of passage is simply not knowing it by heart. You must memorise it. Once memorised many problems instantly disappear.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Shagdac]

Berhard...
Thank you SO very much. I'm printing out your reply right now, and can't wait to get home to start working on it! I just KNEW you would answer

Yes, I remember about doing the clusters, and I think grouping the notes I can into chords to learn placement and order will also help. It would be so much easier if it just continued in one direction or the other, I've never had one quite like this, and it's played so rapidly that you really can't "hear" it going up at all....at least to me it sounds like it is straight down the whole way.

To be truthful, when I first saw this passage, I felt a bit overwhelmed...and made the comment to my teacher that "I know a cadenza may be improvised by the performer...I think I might just try it with this piece"!
Needless to say I received one of those "one eyebrow raised half grin" looks and was told..."I don't think so....If MrGottschalk was kind enough to write in what he wanted played, then that is how we are going to play it!"  He's gone for 2 weeks, and I want to have it perfect for him when he returns.

I have it memorized as far the notes themselves, the order, (most of which was done here at work). I can't wait to try out your suggestions and in fact plan to use 15-20 minute intervals each day for each part. Hopefully, 8 days from now I'll not only have that, but the next 2 or 3 pages as well. I will let you know how it is going. Again, thank you so very much for your time spent looking at this, and all your great suggestions. I truly do appreciate all you do to help Bernhard, and my playing has improved greatly with many of your suggestions that are now part of my "practice regime".
Even my teacher has asked what I am doing differently!

Thanks SO much,
S

[bernhard]

You are welcome!

[Shagdac]

Thank you Bernhard...it's been only a couple days, and by golly, I've got it!!! I decided on the fingering first, and them made sure I had it memorized. I practiced using all of your suggestions, focusing the most on doing the chording of several notes together...this REALLY seemed to help the most, as it wasn't as much a matter of speed anymore, as my fingers were already right there. I also spent alot of time doing the sequencing of notes 123-234-345, etc....Also, I mentioned I would try your practicing technique of doing 20 minute sessions of shorter amount of music, and hoping I would have it by the next day..(I have to admit I was REALLY skeptical of this), anyway, it's been about 3 days, and not only do I have the 2 lines of cadenza, but I also have the next 3 lines on the next page. I just used the same technique in coming up. I really was surprised at how well I could play it the next day. I am still working at getting the speed perfectly, but am very pleased at the progress over such a short period of time. I also have an additional page of Banjo!

It was alittle strange practicing each of the segments for 20 minutes...by the end of the day, I was somewhat confused about the order, as far as not feeling sure of which segment came after which segment, I've always practiced like a whole page or lines all the way thru, not in shorter segments so to speak, so was feeling somewhat "uneasy" when I went to bed worrying that maybe I should have practiced more....but the next day I played each segment thru 2 times, then did the 1st meas, then 1 and 2 meas. then 3 meas, etc and it all seemed to come together. I thought this would be the hardest part of the whole piece, but am surprised at how easily it came the next day.

I'm sure I will have more questions as I go on, but am breathing a sigh of relief having done this part. I know you spend alot of your time on this forum Bernhard, and just want you to know how much I truly do appreciate all your advice. You really have helped my tremendously.
Well, my break is over, back for another 20 minutes!!!
Thank you so much,
Susan (can't wait for my lesson this week!)

[bernhard]

You are most welcome, and I am happy I was of help.

Now an interesting thought: Is it not scary how much time one wastes for not knowing these tiny little things?

I used to think: "Why no one ever told me this stuff?", but now I am not so sure if someone hasn't. Maybe I just didn't pay attention at the time, or I couldn't be bothered, or I was more interested in showing intellectually why it wouldn't work than taking the time to experiment and see the results.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[faulty_damper]

Thank you so much,
Susan

Err... and all this time I thought you were a guy.  

[Shagdac]

Sorry to disappoint you Faulty!

I agree Bernhard, but after really thinking back, I rmember always being told 1 hour a day (this was when I was a child)... no attention was given to HOW to practice, or the methods you suggest,.....just make sure I practiced at least 1 hour a day. I can remember my Mother setting the kitchen timer for 1 hour, hahaha. The teacher I have now (actually 2), does suggest different methods for practicing, and he too told me about making notes into chords, but I have not heard anything before about the "Time" spent. And to be perfectly honest, if I had I may not have believed it, it seems ludicruous that I could do as well practicing 20 minutes on seperate parts, as opposed to spening 5,6 or even 7 or more hours practicing a whole as 1 part.

I am VERY open to suggestions and have found this forum to be a real help in my learning process. If you can put up with all my questions I certainly look forward to putting more of your techniques to the test!

s

[faulty_damper]

Disappointed?  I think not!

(I'd be disappointed if you looked like a guy, though.)

[Shagdac]

I'd be disappointed too!

Hey one last question on this Cadenza. I have it now, and am playing it entirely with my right hand. Is this okay? Of course it starts with RH, but when it gets in the lower register, there is no preference given as to whether you continue with right hand or switch. Does it matter? Isn't the right hand (if you are right handed) usually the fastest and most dominant anyway? Are they usually done with the same hand all the way down, if there is nothing for the other hand to do?
Just wondering.

Thanks
S

[faulty_damper]

If I were you, I'd go with the way that I am comfortable and capable playing it.  I don't like to cross over too far with my arms so I switch hands.

But, you might have some differences in hand abilities where your left is weaker than your right and when you switch, there would be a noticeable change in sound.

But, if you rely on your right too much, you'll always have a more dominant hand that won't help latter on.