Alkan - Allegro Barbaro - Tips?

[learner of liszt]

I've been working on this piece for a couple of months, and have most of it learned, though not by any means perfected. I'm having a lot of trouble, however, with the last two pages. So, does anyone have suggestions for the last two pages, or tips on how to get better at the whole piece in general?

~LoL

[franzliszt2]

Stay very close to the keys. Make no big movements, it helps with speed, and you won't get tired.

Practice it with just the top notes of the octaves, and then the bottom notes.

Los of slow work

Close left eye, and look at LH, close Right eye,and look at RH.

Also practice it all 2 octaves apart.

That should help a lot if you do it everyday for a few weeks.

Staying close to the keys is the main problem solver for octaves. People always play octaves with big movements, but if you use the fingers to play legato as possible, whilst supporting from the arm, and keep the wrist relaxed, and mvts very small, octaves are a lot easier to get fast and accurate. You also get more control over the sound, and can vary it a lot more.


Have you tried op35 no12? That is a really tricky octave etude. It uses a lot more octave techniques, and forces the use of legato.....as does your etude ( I hope you follow Alkan's fingerings for the legato using 1-3((if you can stretch that)) )

Hope that helps!

[faulty_damper]

Close left eye, and look at LH, close Right eye,and look at RH.

Then close both eyes.  After that open them but don't play.

But seriously, why air your dirty laundry here?  Is it that tough a stain that it's been a couple of months already?

[learner of liszt]

What with me being busy with school and a couple of Liszt pieces, and a chopin polonaise to top all that off, Alkan took the back burner, and I just started practicing it regularly a few days ago.

~ LoL

[franzliszt2]

Then close both eyes.  After that open them but don't play.

But seriously, why air your dirty laundry here?  Is it that tough a stain that it's been a couple of months already?

I'm confued by that...I have no dirty laundry, or was that aimed at Learner of Liszt?

Don't close both eyes....the one eye shut really helps with co-ordination because it will confuse the brain to have to look at the "wrong" hand it should be looking at.

[lostinidlewonder]

Better at the song? I didn't know there was a vocal version of this piece Saying the last 2 pages gives you problems, although somewhat better than asking for a tip for the entire piece, is still too vague. Asking for a tip for the entire piece is just useless, when you ask for tips you are looking at the leaves of a tree, not the forest. If you have a problem with the forest then you will realize the entire piece is too hard for you.  What exactly are you talking about? There are numerous things that could trouble someone, you have to identify first what is it that troubles you personally the most, then you might get some helpful responses.

[faulty_damper]

The last two pages is probably referring to the right hand where it's a perpetual mobile above the main theme.  It's presto and remains that way until the end.  Most likely, he's having difficulty in practicing it which directly means difficulty in playing it.  This is a practice problem.  In all likelihood, too large a chunk is being practiced instead of taking it a beat at a time.  This would solve the coordination issue.

[learner of liszt]

This piece is written in the form of a rondo, no? It goes A, B, A, C, A(varied a little), D, A(varied quite a bit).

A have trouble with D and the last A. I have been following the suggestions of franzliszt2, and I  am noticing some improvement. As for tips on the whole piece in general, I will explain that too.
I have a tiny bit of trouble bringing the leaping octaves in the right hand during C up to a good speed without missing notes. The main other thing is that I have trouble with keeping my hands up to tempo during the third A, when the right hand does the very fast jumps to the top of the keyboard, then back down to the main theme.

~LoL

[0range]

A good way to practice the runs on the right hand on the final two pages is to eliminate the octaves, practice the right hand separately (and the left too, if there is trouble there). Then practice it with just the octaves in the right hand. Then, as franzlist2 wrote, try playing it with just the upper note of the octave. Doing things like rhythm variations in these types of runs (fast-slow, slow-fast) is useful for getting rid of unevenness.

Other than that, observe where your difficulties lie, and then, as faulty said, take these small sections, observe what is going wrong - is it fingering? an improper motion? lack of familiarity? etc...

Once you've figured this out all you need to do is to repeat them 25,000 times (or 250,000 if this proves not enough  ). This is supposing that you have the correct technique and simply need to ingrain the notes, fingering, and develop coordination between the hands.

Another great way that I've found, if you have access to a digital piano, is to record the LH on one track, and the RH on another and play each hand separately in time with the recording.

[faulty_damper]

In the C section, you can use 1-5 to play the octave A's and 1-4 to play upper octave A's  You'll notice that the distance traveled by the forearm is significantly reduced compared to using 1-5 to play all the octaves.  That decrease in travel significantly increases speed and security.

As for the leaps in the A', I do two major things:
1.  I shift my body in anticipation and direction of the leaps.   As I play the chord prior to the leap I am already shifting my body in the direction of the leap.  This decreases the distance traveled by my arm compared to being stationary and it increases speed.

2.  I shape the hand to the correct position prior to reaching the keys.  Shaping the hand prior to leaping means I mainly have to focus on accuracy during the leap.  I practiced shaping by playing the chord and the octave (it's a chord for the final leap) in the same register without leaping.  This way, I can practice shaping alone thus breaking down the steps.  I hope this description makes sense.


Lastly, one extremely significant thing that made this piece 10X easier was the way I played the octaves throughout.  Before, I just shaped my hand and fingers stiff and smashed downward to play the octaves.  (I assume this is probably what you do because I've never seen anyone play extended octave passages this other way...)  The other way I figured out to play the octaves which made it 10X easier was this: I contracted the fingers to play the octaves like a quick grabbing motion.  This motion significantly reduced the downward smashing.  It also bounced the hand back to position and eliminated extraneous tension.  This change in technique directly translated to less strain and increased accuracy and ease.  I hope these are desirable attributes.

[learner of liszt]

Thanks for all the tips! I tried the 1-5 to 1-4 in the C section, and it is starting to make that much easier! All I really have left is to do the last A section, and I'm in good shape!

~LoL

[0range]

I contracted the fingers to play the octaves like a quick grabbing motion.  This motion significantly reduced the downward smashing.  It also bounced the hand back to position and eliminated extraneous tension.  This change in technique directly translated to less strain and increased accuracy and ease.  I hope these are desirable attributes.

This is great advice. Like most correct technique, it becomes almost invisible at speed, but this slight "contraction" (I would almost say it is rather a relaxation of the hand to it's natural position) also serves to refresh the hand muscles.

[learner of liszt]

Okay, I've learned and memorized all of the piece except for the final A section. I'm having ridiculous trouble there. I can play hands alone great on the left, and good on the right, but if I try hands together even at a slow tempo, I fall apart after a couple of notes. So anymore advice  on that is appreciated.

[faulty_damper]

Both your left and your right must be great before it can come together.