schirmer or alfred?

[frank_48]

hello,

generally speaking when it comes down to finding a piece of music as close as possible to what the composer had intended, who do you trust and why? schirmer or alfred editions? im a bit confused at the moment. you see. take one of chopins nocturnes, opus 48 no.1 at the end first theme where you play a half note D and then theres a rest. in the schirmer (and most other editions i have seen) it goes from Bb B, and then G C. but in the alfred edtion instead of a G you play a B natural. im not sure what anything else is changed in any other nocturnes, but just as a general way to go about things, should i just play what feels right?

[quantum]

For Chopin I would use the Paderewski or Jan Ekier editions. 

Haven't seen Alfred, so can't comment.  Check in the comments section for any notes on this. 

I would not trust Schirmer. 

[Bob]

There are more posts on this site by people who know more than me.  I try to get the advice of a few experts and see what's in common between them.

Schirmer I've always heard bad things about.

Alfred I thought was more educationally oriented and had editor's marking, though in grey so it's easier to tell what the editor wrote in.

Between the two, I might go with Alfred then.  But I've always heard Urtext.  Henle I guess.  But there are certain editions for certain composers.  For Chopin, I've got Dover and Peters.  Because my teachers told me to get that.  But I've heard that from other teachers too.  And it's not the Henle Urtext.  I'm not sure what it is exactly, but good enough to be recommended by more than one person who seems to know.

[pianisten1989]

Don't get any of them. Rather crappy, accualy.
Buy Paderewzki for Chopin musik.
Urtext for everything from Bach to Beethoven.
Editio Musica Budapest for Liszt.
That's the main stuff.
Schimmer might be bought for like Czerny excersises, it you can't find anything else.

[thierry13]

For Chopin, I've got Dover and Peters. 

Dover's books are often of cheap material. Peters is plain wrong with Chopin! I got the book with the four scherzi and the fantasy in f minor, and it is full of errors in all the pieces. Particularly the second scherzo wich I was studying and the fantasy in f minor wich I looked over with a friend who studied it with many different editions, and it was completly wrong. The editions by Jan Ekier, wichever edition publishes it, is the best. I've got a Wiener urtext Jan Ekier, and it's great. Musica Budapest is also great.

[quantum]

What I have heard about Dover and Chopin is that they used to reprint the Paderewski edition.  However this changed at one point, so the current Dover copies are not Paderewski reprints.  You need to check the source material, which can usually be found on the back cover or on the copyright page. 

[mikey6]

We had Chopin specialist come in and specifically single out Paderewski as not good!
Alfred are ok, although quite heavily edited.
Henle are generally good across the board.
Why so many edition questions lately? with the same answers!

[frank_48]

anyone with a padewerski or henle book can say wether they are easy to lie open flat without any difficulties?

and does anyone have any idea to my first question about the different notation on the bottom of the first page of the nocturne. maybe people can look in their editions?

[quantum]

The problem I find with Henle is that they tend to favour the German first editions when there are discrepancies.  Paderewski will more fully notate the differences between manuscript, first French, and first German editions. 

Depends on the binding.  If it is sewn in signatures, it will lie flat quite easily.  If it uses "perfect binding" another name for glue, sometimes these pages do fall out.  Henle may have better binding, but I prefer Paderewski for it's better content. 

If you want an all out top quality scholarly edition get the Jan Ekier.  Excellent paper, binding, etc. 

[frank_48]

does anyone have any idea to my first question about the different notation on the bottom of the first page of the nocturne. maybe people can look in their editions?

i suppose i can answer my own question on this one, i recently received an email from on of the editors at alfred publishing. this is what he had to say:

Dear Frank,
 
Thanks for your message, and for your question about the Chopin Nocturne, Op. 48, No. 1.
 
I have spoken with our editors and done some research about the note discrepency.  What Willard Palmer has presented does indeed differ with two other sources I compared it to, but it matches exactly what I remember from a professional recording of the Nocturnes!  It's an interesting problem that has arisen before -- and there is no concensus as to which version is "correct" or definitive.
 
This article may help explain the problem, from Grove's:
"...If we add the presentation autographs (some of them written many years after the piece had been composed), scribal copies, often with autograph glosses, and first editions with autograph corrections, we begin to sense something of the complexity of the manuscript tradition in Chopin.

Nor are things much easier when we come to the early printed sources. Most of Chopin’s music was published simultaneously in France, Germany and England. While Schlesinger in Paris characteristically worked from an autograph, the German and English publishers followed several options (autograph, scribal copy or proof sheets). This, combined with the fact that Chopin could exercise little control over the publishing process outside Paris, resulted in numerous discrepancies of text between the three first editions. Moreover the print runs were usually small, and it was common for later ‘impressions’ (tirages) to appear with the same plate numbers, but with changes to the text; in the case of the French edition, this evolution of text may, at least in some cases, have been condoned or even instigated by Chopin himself. It is hardly surprising, given the multiplicity of sources and the textual discrepancies between them, that the subsequent publication history of Chopin’s music has been fraught with problems..."

Also, from the Dover edition of the Nocturnes and Polonaises, the following:

"Improvising his performances at will, he never played a piece the same way twice.  As a result, there are numerous texts of any single Chopin work and the editions of these texts have more editorial "improvisation" than do the texts of most composers."
It is therefore difficult to nail down which edition is totally reliable.  All the source materials differ slightly, which I have discovered in others of Chopin's works.
 
I hope this information is helpful.

[mikey6]

I think in the case of Chopin, The Ekier edition is useful as it provides the performance commentary (like the Barenreiter) and shows the discrepancies between the sources.  Henle does to a lesser extent in the notes.

[thierry13]

That's what's great with Jan Ekier. You have ALL the sources and ALL the possibilities (as long as they are minimaly valid). And everything is discussed so that you can have the most educated opinion on wich source you prefer.

[hunkyhong]

getting back to the subject of "schirmer or alfred", it depends on what composer you are studying. True, use padereski for chopin because he was polish and did lots of research to try and match everything up with chopin's authentic handwritten manuscripts. But use durand for debussy, etc. As for schirmer and alfred, i wouldn't advise either one to a serious musician. they are heavily edited, and very awkward to look at. The henle's are nice because of the layout and spacious page settings, but they don't have everything. They are working on expanding their urtext music, but until then, look for anything that is closest to the composer's true manuscripts, without too much editing. another issue is that urtext music is often really pricey. So what i do is go to the music library, and choose between a few urtext edition and make copies of the music. But if you want the entire volume or book, then i'd suggest buying it. theres something about an urtext score that is kind of thrilling to read from. and it makes it sweeter to own!

[mikey6]

Even Durand has mistakes - their Gaspard has blatant errors in the RH figurations.  The Peters Edtion is actually the best me thinks (for gaspard).
I think the best edition may have a lot to do with the editor - Roger Nichols is a well known Ravel-ite, Ekier for Chopin, Roy Howat just released a new Faure edtition for Peters.

[frank_48]

wow. i had no idea there were such conflicting opinions of sooo many editions. its like the modern concert pianist eg..kissin. some people like his interpretations and some dont. last week i had more or less all of chopins works in schirmer editions until someone pointed out to me that they arent that great. so i went and replaced all of them with alfred editions. now some people are saying that not even that good  all of this music is still within return period. would it be better if i just bought the padwerski edition this time? im not really so fussed about urtext of other composers but i really would like to find a publisher who has 99% of what chopin wrote. most people are sayiing paderwerski for chopin. so is that what i should aim for?

[quantum]

wow. i had no idea there were such conflicting opinions of sooo many editions. its like the modern concert pianist eg..kissin. some people like his interpretations and some dont. last week i had more or less all of chopins works in schirmer editions until someone pointed out to me that they arent that great. so i went and replaced all of them with alfred editions. now some people are saying that not even that good  all of this music is still within return period. would it be better if i just bought the padwerski edition this time? im not really so fussed about urtext of other composers but i really would like to find a publisher who has 99% of what chopin wrote. most people are sayiing paderwerski for chopin. so is that what i should aim for?

Yes, I would recommend the Paderewski, which for the most part contains Chopin's complete oeuvre.  Just so you know, there are two versions floating around North America at the moment, the only difference being the price.  I think it has something to do with having a North American distributor for the edition.  So check the price before you buy. 

I'd look into Jan Ekier edition too.  It is pricier than the Paderewski, but very much worth what you pay.  I have most of the Paderewski, and just go to the library to check the Ekier. 

[rachfan]

For Chopin, I vote for the Paderewski Edition.  Paderewski worked closely with the scholars L. Bronarski and J. Turczynski.  It is well researched and the end-of-volume editorial commentaries are highly informative in comparing the autograph and original editions in France, England and Germany. 

So, for example, on your question as to why the B octave in the LH in Alfred versus the G octave, the Paderewski editorial commentary tells you that the B is found in the autographed manuscript preserved at the Frederic Chopin Society in Warsaw, as well as in the first German edition (Breitkopf & Hartel) which was based on that autographed manuscript.  The implication is that the G originated in the original French edition (M. Schlesinger in Paris).  Both notations were subsequently picked up by still other publishers over time.  Thus, there has developed two different performance practices on the B versus the G.   

You'll find these note discrepancies very frequently in Chopin.  A familiar example is the choice of and E flat or E in the Prelude, Op. 28, No. 20 in Cm, top of the last RH chord at the end of the third measure.  Half of pianists play it one way, and the other half the other way.  In recitals knowing listeners will have their ears cocked to hear which which note the pianist will play.  So before questioning a "wrong note" in Chopin, you really have to first ask about the edition (as you have done here), as the performer might well have played exactly what is printed in that edition.