Hands Together

[green]

Why is this so grueling for some? Beginners to lower intermediate, I often encounter complete break downs when hands must play tohether.

Case 1: 10 years old, 2 years playing. Burgmullers 'Arabesque'. After intro, and first 4 bars, which he plays with ease, total break down, cannot play HT. HS fine. LH he always changes fingering on the chords (GCE, GBF, CE). Playing very slowly seems not to help. We spent most of the time maintaining the same fingering through out. In retrospect should have done taping rhythm. Then play RH, tap LH, switch.

Case 2: 30 year old, lower intermediate. Pop tune. LH arpegios playing as block chords, RH melody each note same pulse so as to not worry about rhythm, concentrating on coordinating chord changes. Difficult, she cannot really 'get' it. We tryed her tapping LH changes, and playing RH melody, and had her say 'change' when the chord changed. Also had her say the name of the note in the melody with which the LH was changing - because she has difficulting playing 'at all' without first memorizing. This seemed to be helpful.

First learning HS, then putting them together 'slowly', often does not make explicit the problem a learner may be facing with playing HT.

What ways have you learned or discovered work well with helping stds to play HT?

[monk]

You (and possibly your student) must be a little inventive.

You have to find ways to simplify one hand.

Example: If a student plays the "Minute Waltz" by Chopin, it's often difficult to play HT. So I let them play a simpler version of the left hand: Bass note - octave (2 times) - Bass note - octave (2 times) and so on. This way they don't have the stress to hit the right chords, but can already play the piece with the right "feel".

Look for possibilities where you can e.g. play always the same tone / chord in one hand instead of changing tones /chords. Or for possibilities to leave notes out or simplifying the rhythm.

Be creative instead of wanting with your head through the wall!

Best Wishes,
Monk

[bernhard]

Monk is right:

You have to find ways to simplify one hand.

Once a student has thoroughly learned a passage with separate hands, /s/he mastered the “technique” to play that passage. Joining hands will bring up a completely different set of problems: co-ordination. Hands together is actually 37 times more difficult than hands separate.

This is one of the reason why going to hands together straightaway does not work: you have to solve the technical and the co-ordination problems at the same time.

This is the same problem as rubbing your stomach in circles and patting your head. Or having one arm making circles forward, and the other backwards. One of the main reasons why this is so difficult to start with, is that one hand tries to move sympathetically with the other. In other words: one hand interferes with the movement of the other.

The solution lies at the nervous level. You must inhibit the nerve message for the sympathetice movement, then you must have both hands move independently.

How do you do that?

Here is the single most powerful routine to do that. It targets specifically co-ordination, so you must make sure that the technique required for the passage had been thoroughly mastered by previous work on hands separate.

I call it “dropping notes”.

The student should start by playing the right hand (for example – it doesn’t really matter which hand you start). He plays the right hand only a couple of times. If it is fluent and smooth, the student is now going to add the first, and only the first note of the left hand. In other words, s/he is going to “drop” the first LH note. The aim is to keep the RH going no matter what. It does not matter if the LH note is wrong: it can be fixed later. The only thing that matters is that the RH should continue undisturbed, no matter what the RH is doing. It is going to take 2 or 3 (maybe more) repeats for the student to get the hang of it. Once s/he can do it, add the next note. To start with everything will fall apart. Never mind, keep trying. First aim to keep the RH going no matter what. Once this is accomplished, to get the LH notes right. It is all a matter of priorities. At this stage the priority is not to get the LH notes perfect at the expense of the RH movement. All we are interested in, is to get the RH to move independently of what the LH is doing. Once we accomplish this, them we can turn our attention to accuracy.

Keep adding the LH notes one by one. Every time you add a new note, everything falls apart, but as you proceed, it gets easier and easier. Eventually you will be playing hands together!

Now comes a very important step that must not be skipped. You must do it all over again, but this time the reverse: start by playing the whole of the LH, and drop the RH notes one by one. Once you can do both ways, you will have mastered HT for life!

Do not try this with the whole piece. Work in small passages, maybe one or two bars at a time. Bach fugues tend to be a nightmare to join hands. Try this method: it always work.

And here is another thing that should be done as well. Many times the student gets overwhelmed by the physical task and cannot deal with the sound of it all. So Once they can do HS well, let them play one hand, while you play the other. This way they can “hear” how it all sounds together, without the complication of actually having to play both hands. If the sound of hands together is firmly on their minds, somehow the fingers comply to actualise that mental representation.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[rlefebvr]

Make sure they are counting. Students hate to count(myself included}.
It's easy to get away with things when playing hands seperate, but if you don't know when the notes should be played, when you join hands everything falls apart.

Have them play hands seperate again, but this time make sure they are counting. Do the right hand and then the left hand.

After you are sure they can play what they count, go back to hands together and things will be much better

Works for me everytime..

[glamfolk]

It sounds as though the student in case 1 has fallen into a trap that catches most students.  He always begins at the beginning of the piece in his practice, so that after a half-hour, he's played the intro and the first 4 bars two hundred times, until he gets stuck, and then he stops and just starts over, thinking that somehow the rest of the piece will just fall into place as easily as the first 4 bars did.  What's worse, he's gotten really proficient at stopping after the first 4 bars, having played it that way two hundred times!  

Bernhard's "dropping notes" method works well.  I've used it with my students nearly every time with difficult passages, and it helps to build.  This is similar to the "clustering" approach.  

Now, have him start at the fifth bar (where the difficulties begin), and work until he becomes proficient for a phrase or two, then add that to the parts of the piece that he already knows well.  You'll notice that now he won't be able to play the part he just spent a half hour working to perfection.  This is because the section he just learned is now slightly out of context, because his mind is telling him to stop and start over at that point, because this is the way he has practiced it.  He must learn to stop stopping there and continue with the piece.  So there is a bit of "unlearning" that must be done.  

This should give him fairly steady progress.



In case 2, sometimes it works for me to play the piece, and for the student to play along on the chords only--not as written, but just simple chords over what you're playing, so that they get some idea of the chord progression.  Then fill in the details of the left hand i.e., exact voicing of the chord if appropriate, exact rhythm if appropriate.  I say "if appropriate" because it depends on the student's goals.  Adults sometimes just want to be able to sit and play pop stuff.  Exact reproduction of the publisher's wishes is sometimes not needed in this case, and sometimes, is pretty near impossible for lower intermediate players.  

Finally, add the melody, small bits at a time.  

[green]

37 times harder?

[rlefebvr]

37 times harder?

Scientifically calculated.
I am sure he could explain it to you, but he would need charts and stuff.

[bernhard]

Scientifically calculated.
I am sure he could explain it to you, but he would need charts and stuff.

In average. You can give or take 3. That is: 37+-3.

[green]

Didn't follow that, how is HT 37 times more difficult than HS?

[bernhard]

Didn't follow that, how is HT 37 times more difficult than HS?

Isn’t that your experience? It is certainly mine.

Eating an apple? Not very difficult.

Tying shoelaces? Moderately difficult, but once you get the hang of it you can do it with your eyes closed and one hand tied on the back.

Riding a bicycle? Difficult to learn, but once you learn it is a breeze. You can even do it with no hands!

Now try riding a bicycle, eating and apple and tying your shoelaces all at the same time. It probably can be done, but it will be many times more difficult than the sum of the difficulties of each activity separately.

Why? Because it involves co-ordination of movements that must be kept independent . So it is with piano playing HT. As you move one hand, the other hand instinctively moves sympathetically. So it is not just a matter of each hand doing its own movement. You must also inhibit each hand from moving in sympathy with the other. And this inhibition must be specific enough so as to not disturb the movement you want each hand to accomplish.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[jbmajor]

Hands together is actually 37 times more difficult than hands separate.

Is this an exaggeration, or is that the actual number?!?

[bernhard]

In average. You can give or take 3. That is: 37+-3.

Does it really matter?

[Piazzo22]

Does it really matter?

Not really. Good teachers recommend practicing hands together from scratch.

[nick]

Once the fingering is worked out, I do hands together. If there is a problem putting hands together and the notes and rhythm of each hand is correct, then play just 1 beat with two hands and stop. Repeat. Then the next note or beat and stop, etc. Works for me and students every time. 'Hands together 37 times more difficult than alone,' Nonesense. Just make sure you don't eat an apple and tie your shoelace while practicing.

Nick

[janice]

Once the student has mastered one hand (let's say the LH) try playing it as a "duet", with the student playing the LH and you playing the RH.  You and the student might be surprised as to how difficult this might be for the student.  By doing this, they can HEAR how it "should" sound.  (And it might lessen discouragement in the student.)  

And then, after one hand is mastered, instead of having the student learn the other hand by itself (followed by putting the two hands together), have him/her ADD the other hand, so that he/she is playing hands together.  I seriously think that this will work out well.

[bernhard]

Not really. Good teachers recommend practicing hands together from scratch.

Yes. Teachers recommend all sorts of things. I would not rush to call them good though.

You should play hands together from scratch if you are practising sight reading. Otherwise practising hands together from scratch is pretty disastrous. Students who do it do it motivated by impatience. Teachers who actively support it are just misguided (and maybe bored and impatient too).

However, there is no reason to take issue here. Just try this:

Get two pieces/passages of similar difficulty that you are unable to play at this moment in time, since you have not yet acquired the technique to do so. Practise one with hands together from scratch. Practise the other hands separate first. Compare what you have achieved with each after a couple of weeks. Come back here and report the results.

And Janice's suggestion above is also excellent.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Piazzo22]

Yes. Teachers recommend all sorts of things. I would not rush to call them good though.

You should play hands together from scratch if you are practising sight reading. Otherwise practising hands together from scratch is pretty disastrous. Students who do it do it motivated by impatience. Teachers who actively support it are just misguided (and maybe bored and impatient too).

However, there is no reason to take issue here. Just try this:

Get two pieces/passages of similar difficulty that you are unable to play at this moment in time, since you have not yet acquired the technique to do so. Practise one with hands together from scratch. Practise the other hands separate first. Compare what you have achieved with each after a couple of weeks. Come back here and report the results.

And Janice's suggestion above is also excellent.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

I´ll try that. Thanks!

But when you say you have mastered one hand, you have to get it memorized too or just by reading it?

[bernhard]

I´ll try that. Thanks!

But when you say you have mastered one hand, you have to get it memorized too or just by reading it?

Usually I do not learn a whole piece hands separate (one exception are Bach pieces and counterpoint in general when I learn – and memorise -  not only each hand, but each voice separately).

What I do is I learn a very small passage (say, a bar or two) hands separate and then join them. Being such a small passage, after 2 or 3 repeats it is memorised anyway. Then I learn the next passage the same way. However, when I join the passages, I do it hands together straightaway. There is no reason to do it hands separate because the technique has been already acquired. So only at the very basic level are hands separate necessary (and in my opinion it goes farther than that: at the basic level of the smallest section you are tackling, hands separate are mandatory).

Finally, not all sections of a piece (even at the most basic level) need to be done hands separate first. Some parts of a piece – if you already have the technique to do so – you can join hands straight away.

It is very useful (even though it maybe artificial) to think of difficulties as either technical or co-ordination. Technical problems include:

1.      getting an iron clad and appropriate fingering.
2.      figuring out the best movement (sometimes of the whole body) to go form one note to the next.
3.      developing speed (if necessary)
4.      appropriate dynamics
5.      correct rhythm (not necessarily as notated – and sometimes, depending on the piece you can only get the correct rhythm once the hands are together – if so, do it metronomically with hands separate and add the rubatos and so on with hands together).

As you do your first, exploratory sight reading of a piece (hands together) observe any sections in which you may encounter any of the problems above. If everything goes well, there is no need for separate hands. If you get stuck in any passage (because of one of the reasons above), this passage will have to be singled out for separate hand practice so that you can sort it out without having to cope with the co-ordination problems hands together entails at the same time.

Sometimes a piece will require every single bar to be tackled hands separate. It will ultimately depend on you and on the piece.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[timothy42b]

Case 1, 51 year old adult beginner.  Can play C, G, D scales at quarter = 80 MM, sixteenth notes, HS.  Can play scales at 80, half notes, HT.  Scales therefore would be 8 times as hard HT.  If I could really do the half notes without getting off, most of the time I don't make it all the way through without a stumble.  .  Yeah, this one is me.  

Case 2,  14 year old beginner.  Plays her C scale apparently just as well HT as HS and perceives no particular difficulty.  This drives me nuts.  Yeah, that one would be my daughter.  I think the trick is, she is left handed.  

[Egghead]

Case 1, 51 year old adult beginner.  Can play C, G, D scales at quarter = 80 MM, sixteenth notes, HS.  Can play scales at 80, half notes, HT.  Scales therefore would be 8 times as hard HT.  If I could really do the half notes without getting off, most of the time I don't make it all the way through without a stumble.  .  Yeah, this one is me.  

Case 2,  14 year old beginner.  Plays her C scale apparently just as well HT as HS and perceives no particular difficulty.  This drives me nuts.  Yeah, that one would be my daughter.  I think the trick is, she is left handed.  

Hm, I think the trick is she has internalised the pattern and does not THINK about it at all. She can probably talk to you about how easy it all is WHILE playing HT...
Can you play those HS scales with your eyes closed? Do you have to pay attention to the fingering in HS? Can you tummy pat and head rub and vice versa (only one at a time) with your spare hand while playing the scale HS?

In many areas of life I think the following is true: pick something you can do reliably but requiring your full concentration. Make it "twice" as hard, by doubling the amount of information needing to be processed (usually per unit time). However hard you try, you will not be able to do it.
Bernhards "pick a section learnable in seven goes" is like that (make the section twice that long, it will take you 30 goes. Even that is only possible because you automatically ignore everything beyond the first few notes until you have learnt them and start paying attention to the next bunch etc.).
Dr. Changs "play HS at 1.5 times final speed before even thinking about practicing HT" is like that (if the piece is technically hard enough to REQUIRE HS-practice, playing at 1.5times the final speed is more than twice as hard as playing at final speed).
Sightreading is like that.

[Egghead]

Usually I do not learn a whole piece hands separate (one exception are Bach pieces and counterpoint in general when I learn – and memorise -  not only each hand, but each voice separately).

What I do is I learn a very small passage (say, a bar or two) hands separate and then join them. Being such a small passage, after 2 or 3 repeats it is memorised anyway. Then I learn the next passage the same way.

Hm, I do the same when I feel lazy. Somewhat reassured now... Except it means I have not memorised the piece HS by the end... bad news because...

However, when I join the passages, I do it hands together straightaway. There is no reason to do it hands separate because the technique has been already acquired.

I agree IF and ONLY IF you also have a perfect mental representation of the section in HT, i.e. if you can play the stuff in your head. I usually cannot do this with a new piece HT. Put differently: the finger-agility-technique may be there, but is the mental control also there?

I find learning (i.e. memorising) pieces HS very beneficial because as HS I can play it in my head. At my skill level it is a necessary step of simplification to allow full awareness of every note. I believe this awareness feeds back into technique and is necessary if you want to interpret/express the music. Just another way of saying: simplify it until you can truly master it.

Incidentally, to my great surprise this also seems to benefit my sight-reading. When you start thinking about it, is is actually not so surprising.

Finally, it is a truly mind-blowing experience when you have practiced HS well, and one day you just start them off together, playing HT. And you sit back and watch and listen to the wonders your brain is capable of.

[aisling_7]

I use to think that HS was somehow cheating.  Now I believe it is necessary!  I would go two measures at a time.  You should be able to get the RH part memorized in a short time.  Now do the same with the LH, those same two measures.  Play them until memorized.  Play them together painfully slow.  Could it be that your student plays HS at home but not in a comitted way?  They might not be practicing either HS or HT very well.  Most students can sightread HS.

Jackie

[ChristmasCarol]

I have had some luck with left/right issues by having beginner students play a contrary scale instead of parallell.  Also I have noticed that some students instinctively want to play a part with a different hand than the music indicates when sight-reading.  Perhaps that is the pathway their brain is going down and may be the "right" way for them to begin.  Certainly not every time but we are talking about students with difficulties.  Yesterday I had a little six year old I've been teaching for six months be introduced to me by mom as "very tired" from adjusting to first grade.  So I announced that she would be in charge of the lesson and let me know what makes her tired... We acted out some Halloween sounds on the piano, reviewed older pieces she knew, and generally had a ball.  She told her mom it was the best piano lesson she ever had.  We didn't really do anything extraordinarily different from other lessons, but empowering her was the right thing in that moment.  For me, the best lessons are the ones where students teach me something.  This left/right issue is huge.  And the truth is it is how we are wired.  I'm convinced that we have not yet begun to scratch the surface of how to deal with this effectively.