good long term practice plan?

[frank_48]

Does anyone think this is a good idea? and if doing this plan, would lead to good results?

i have a lot of free time on my hands, and i love playing piano, i would like to go really far with it one day, hence practising many hours a day, however. long hours of practice doesnt necessarily mean improvement. it has to also be efficiant and you have to gain something in that time you spent playing. my plan at the moment consists of this daily routine:

starting at 10am.

Piano Theory – 1 Hour
Scales/Arpeggios etc. – 1 Hour
Liszt technical exercises – 1 Hour
Czerny, op 740. – 1 Hour
Chopin – 30 mins
Liszt - 30 mins
Bach – 30 mins
Mozart – 30 mins
Beethoven – 30 mins
Schumann - 30 mins

by 30 mins i mean i have 1 or 2 small pieces by that composer, about 1 or 2 pages long, (very easy short pieces) and practice them, daily for 1 week. usually its finished and performance worthy in a weeks time. if not. continue until it is.(max 2 weeks)  my question is, is this a good plan? i am trying to gain technique, while at the same time improve on my sight reading. the goal is as i would improve i would just be replacing those easy pieces with more challenging ones, but i'm hoping that this is helping me advance in the long run.

i dont feel this is excessive, im having fantastic fun at the moment and i dont feel like im drilling myself into the ground to improve. i just wanted your opinion. if anyone is wondering how long ive been playing piano at all - 11 months. but ive only been using this plan for the last 3-4 weeks.

[frank_48]

just something to add, if anyone can help, does anyone think that czerny is necessary giving all the small pieces that im doing to aquire technique? the only purpose im using czerny at the moment is for sight reading purposes, but if all that can be gained with just repertoire then comes the long long task of convincing my teacher czerny isnt important...

[db05]

Does anyone think this is a good idea? and if doing this plan, would lead to good results?

To simply have a plan is very good! Congratulations. Just remember that this isn't written in stone and you can change your plan to accomodate other pieces. And I suggest set aside time to listen to recordings/ watch videos of piano music.

If you think Czerny isn't that important, just cut the time to 30 mins. I think an hour of Czerny is too much, unless it's a real piece, not an exercise.

I'm curious, what pieces in particular are you working on? What are the Liszt technical exercises? Are they like Czerny?

[frank_48]

thankyou for replying in my thread! 


at the moment im playing:

Chopin, waltz in a minor, cantabile.
Liszt, romance oubliee.
Bach, march in d major. C.P.E Bach, solfeggio.
Mozart, minuets no 1 & 2
Beethoven, ecossaise. (scotch dance)
And Schumann, op 15 no.7 “traumerei”

i was playing chopins nocturne, opus 48 no1  but only got up to the doppio movemento part until i realised its best to leave it for a while and let my technique advance.

the liszt exercises are kinda like czerny but more to the point, eg. thirds in many different scales etc, then octaves, finger independence, scales in 5ths etc etc.

its this book: https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_detail.html?item=3502970&cart=342744554963223&cm_re=289.1.4-_-Results+Item-_-Image+Thumbnail

and yes i do spend alot of time after practice time listening to many recordings of my favourite pieces + the ones im learning.

i will give your suggestion a go by cutting it by 30 mins see how it goes. i am finding it a drag atm, im only doing it because my teacher insists it will benefit me in the long run. but what do i know anyway im just a novice 

[db05]

thankyou kind sir for replying to my thread! 

at the moment im playing,
...
...
i will give your suggestion a go by cutting it by 30 mins see how it goes. i am finding it a drag atm, im only doing it because my teacher insists it will benefit me in the long run. but what do i know anyway im just a novice 

LOLOLOL   

I'm not a sir, and I'm a few notches below your level. That's why I'm curious as to what pieces you have.

[frank_48]

LOLOLOL   

I'm not a sir, and I'm a few notches below your level. That's why I'm curious as to what pieces you have.

ha, funny. the exact moment you posted this i realised you were a girl and edited my post. how ironic. my apologies, miss.

[db05]

ha, funny. the exact moment you posted this i realised you were a girl and edited my post. how ironic. my apologies, miss.

LOL. 
Are we playing the same March? Then it must be destiny... 

[frank_48]

LOL. 
Are we playing the same March? Then it must be destiny... 

yep! march in d major. same book too 

[db05]

yep! march in d major. same book too 

Marry me LOL. 

But seriously, my advice doesn't count. Help, anyone?

And a few more questions. What do you mean, piano theory? And did you assign these pieces yourself, or are you learning them with your teacher?

[frank_48]

Marry me LOL. 

But seriously, my advice doesn't count. Help, anyone?

And a few more questions. What do you mean, piano theory? And did you assign these pieces yourself, or are you learning them with your teacher?

I'm just reading changs book at the moment, "the fundamentals of piano practice" but usually i read books that contain the basis of music theory. about how to understand music better as a whole. the structure of music, sight reading/rhythm/composition etc.

to answer your second question, yes i assigned all these pieces myself but got my teachers approval before i attempted them.

[hyrst]

Sounds like a good strategy for as long as you can keep it up - and hopefully you will be e seeing so much improvement that it will motivate you for enough time that you become quite confident in deciding what you are best to do.  Give yourself rest days regularly so that you feel the miss of practice rather than the opposite and tiring of it.

I totally love Czerny and could easily spend well over an hour on it every day.  It is quite different to the other exercises and things because it develops artistry and / or fluency rather than focusing on strength and coordination.  The issue here is that these skills must be taught and it is hard to cover much in a lesson once a week, so would take considerable time before you effectively learnt enough of the studies to make it possible to play them with undestanding and enjoyment for an hour every day.  I would recommend building up your Czerny repertoire rather than spending an hour on them as exercises.

Have fun :-)

[frank_48]

thanks for your comment hyrst.

i havnt had access to any czerny "pieces" per se, i have just been playing exercises, however reading hundreds of previous posts in this forum, ive come to the conclusion where 90% of people say czerny exercises are pointless, (bernhard included) whilst the rest say czerny is essential for the preperation of classical repertoire.

i would just be content practising pieces of increasing difficulty. thing is, i dont want to be the "average" pianist if you understand what i mean. i hope to one day master all of chopins etudes, (dont care how long it takes) just not sure if i really should devote my time to technical exercises when repeating them over and over again doesnt really give you anything new.

[hyrst]

From what I have read from Bernhard, he didn't believe in technique studies at all - he said he used pieces.  While I have much respect for the things he has written, I find this concept a little odd.  After all, Bach's Well Tempered Clavier and 2 / 3 part Inventions were meant entirely for student technical study, as were even Chopin's wonderful Etudes.  Should we avoid these works because they were for developing technique?  Nobody would imagine that in the slightest!

Many less advanced studies, such as Czerny and Heller, are great little pieces.  They just specialise on certain skills in a way that means we don't have to think about a lot of other things at the same time.  While I don't wish to be in a debate about the right thing to do with these sorts of pieces, and I think you need to do what works for you and what you are instructed to do and what you enjoy, it seems only sensible to move away from pre-existent concerns and debates.

You need to experiment with a few things and see what works with you and that you can make the most of - no point playing something that you simply wish you didn't have to.  Try to find something you seek from your studies and see if it is happening over time.  Sometimes it is plain hard work, but the results can be enough to help you make the choice.  Really, it does you no good to spend the time wondering if you are wasting your time or about all the opinions that get thrown around.  Put your whole heart into your practice and see what happens.

BTW the Czerny exercises are pieces in miniature, you simply need to find the musicality they are so rich in - most of them, anyway.  Perhaps make that a priority of your time spent studying these exercises.  Look for flow, harmony, articulation, etc.

Bernhard himself said that technique learnt in pieces would best be used when similar pieces were learnt so skills could be transferred.  This indicates that no careful study is pointless because we transfer and then build upon what we learn.  Perhaps 'essential' is a rather stong and biased term, but what about applying words like convenient, helpful, economical, etc to time devoted to littel studies?

All the best.

[frank_48]

you make a very good point. it is indeed about gaining some technique from what you play. every exercise is made for you to gain something from, obviously. and i think after all this time playing czernys exercise no.1 from op 740. and gaining nothing btw. i think that might be the reason czerny's doing my head in at the moment. perhaps a more englighting piece would lift my spirit  perhaps no.37. or 17. i suppose on that note even practising one of chopins etudes many months after mastering it would get you nowhere technique wise imo.

so thanks hyrst for putting balance on what is other wise a heavily 1 sided argument.
Ps. nobody think i'm saying playing a single chopin etude for months on end is  bad, i love chopin. 

[concerto_love]

it's good if u have mood and plan for it.. myself, I never think as far as this, just play when I want...   

[frank_48]

it's good if u have mood and plan for it.. myself, I never think as far as this, just play when I want...   

i love organisation 

[concerto_love]

i love organisation 

hahahah that's good!!  Keep it up, and dun b like me, hahahah!! 

[db05]

you make a very good point. it is indeed about gaining some technique from what you play. every exercise is made for you to gain something from, obviously. and i think after all this time playing czernys exercise no.1 from op 740. and gaining nothing btw. i think that might be the reason czerny's doing my head in at the moment. perhaps a more englighting piece would lift my spirit  perhaps no.37. or 17. i suppose on that note even practising one of chopins etudes many months after mastering it would get you nowhere technique wise imo.

Op. 740 is Art of Finger Dexterity, right? I have Preliminary School of Finger Dexterity and School of Velocity, they're quite boring imo. Just fast scales and patterns. On the other hand, I'm still on the Practical Method for Beginners and it's quite fun. Just think of them as short pieces.

[bernhard]

Does anyone think this is a good idea? and if doing this plan, would lead to good results?

my plan at the moment consists of this daily routine:

starting at 10am.

Piano Theory – 1 Hour
Scales/Arpeggios etc. – 1 Hour
Liszt technical exercises – 1 Hour
Czerny, op 740. – 1 Hour
Chopin – 30 mins
Liszt - 30 mins
Bach – 30 mins
Mozart – 30 mins
Beethoven – 30 mins
Schumann - 30 mins

As you said yourself, what you have there is not a plan, but a daily routine.

A plan is an organised way to achieve a goal.

Hence, you must first define your goal. However, such a goal must be stated in as specific terms as possible. To say: “My goal is to play the piano well” is too unspecific to have any usefulness. Also goals must be self referenced. To say “My goal is to amaze my friends with my piano playing” besides being unspecific refers to your friends reactions – something you have no control over. (I am not saying these are your goals, I am just giving examples of bad goals).

Once you have figured out your goal, than you will be in a better position to judge if your present daily routine is conducive to it.

I usually suggest to my students that their goal should be the acquisition of repertory, that is, to have a number of pieces they love learned to a most comprehensive degree (composer´s bio, historical backgroud, style, analysis, appropriate technique, interpretation, memorization, etc.), and played to perfection (an unachievable goal, but then what is life for?). Once this goal is accepted, than planning can start, and this will involve three levels:

i.   Long term plan: What would you like your repertory to be in Five years time? In a sense this is the most important level, and from a planning point of view (as opposed to a pragmatical point of view), it is the most important level, since it will determine the other two.

ii.   Medium term plan: This is what you set out to achieve on a month-to-month basis, and also at the end of the year. It is at this level that you will be able to estimate how realistic your long-term plans were, and perhaps modify them.

iii.   Short term plan: Here we are talking what you do from day-to-day, week-by-week. From a pragimatical point of view, this is the most important level, since this is what you will be actually doing (as opposed to envisioning results in the far away future).

It is not that different from building a house. Before you start buying bricks, tiles, cement, etc., you must make a Project for the finished house. This is fun work because you can be as visionary as you wish. You can make it a castle, or an underground house, or a geodesic dome. Trying to figure out on paper how to Project such a house will also show you how realistic or unrealistic your Project is (since for a start you may not have the financial resources to do it). Once you have that level sorted out, then you must make a chronogram of the actual building: You have to build the foundations before the roof, but depending on your Project, you may or may not be able to build the roof before the walls. You must make sure you will have the necessary resources for each stage, and that the materials will arrive in time. Finally you can start building the house, following your chronogram and guided by your Project. If you have never built a house before, your lack of experience will translate into some costly mistakes and maybe even in utter failure. That is why involving an experienced builder (or architect) can save you a lot of time, money and stress (that would be your piano teacher).

Or think about making a movie. Without a good producer, and a good production plan, your movie may never get made.

On the other hand, builders, architects and producers can be poor professionals, or they may have their own ideas which may not be what you had in mind in the first place.

Therefore, make sure you do have a plan and watch out for people who will derail you. (Of course there is nothing wrong about changing your mind about your goals and plans to achieve them,  if you are convinced alternative plans are better).

Finally, drop the Czerny, drop the Liszt technical exercises (unless you love them as pieces of music and would like them to be part of your repertory). Instead, replace them with Scarlatti sonatas, and Bach 2 – 3 voice inventions / little preludes. They will be far superior as far as technical/musical benefits go, and they are repertory of the highest quality.

Read more about planning (and related subjects) here:

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7872.msg79188.html#msg79188
(How to plan your work for the next five years)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4710.msg44538.html#msg44538
(explains once more about 7 x 20 minutes – Progress is the ultimate decider – How to break a piece in practice sessions – Example: Satie gymnopedie – importance of planning – aim at 100 pieces per year – Example: Bach Cm WTC 2 -)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4750.msg45125.html#msg45125
(more details: learned – mastered –omniscience – why repertory must be paramount – how to work on 20 pieces per month – a case for easy repertory – importance of discipline and of having a plan – analogy of mastering a piece and making wine – musicality is ultimately good taste – Example: Beethoven op. 49 no. 2- A list of progressive repertory to lead to Rach prelude op. 32 no. 5 – mastery is when it is easy)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,10129.msg103508.html#msg103508
(Hanon x Czerny – 192 Scarlatti sonatas graded in order of difficulty)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2948.msg25927.html#msg25927
(Czerny x Scarlatti to acquire technique)

Just the tip of the iceberg!

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[frank_48]

bernhard! was hoping you would come back one day, thankyou for your advice.

i guess the general goal for me is to play all the pieces (currently over 170) that i love and aquire technique at the same time, ive had this list of pieces to play well before i joined this forum, unfortunatly i lack the technical skill in many of the pieces i would like to play (chopin etudes, etc) so i am currently playing easier pieces by the composers i mentioned until i get better.

with the czerny, ive had many arguments with my teacher in trying to drop czerny, but she insists that i will benefit from it. and i have no idea what to say that could sway her she cant see how its possible to gain technique soley from repertoire.

liszt was my idea, just thought that would help.

the bulk of my list is almost everything chopin wrote, but i have some other pieces by other composers in there aswell, mozart, beethoven, liszt, debussy etc.

about 8 months ago i would have been very unsure if i could even get to the level of the chopin etudes, with me starting so late (age 17) but upon reading some information and talking to some other pianists, i know that dedication to music, the right approach to technqiue and consistency overrides age anyday, within reason of course.

[quasimodo]

and i have no idea what to say that could sway her

How about "If you insist I'll have another teacher!" ?

[frank_48]

How about "If you insist I'll have another teacher!" ?

lol, well i dont know about that shes a nice girl and id rather not be so mean in that way.

[quasimodo]

lol, well i dont know about that shes a nice girl and id rather not be so mean in that way.

Tsk Tsk...
Nice girls don't force you to do boring Czerny exercises.

[frank_48]

Tsk Tsk...
Nice girls don't force you to do boring Czerny exercises.

lol, i printed out what bernhard said and showed it to her, and that seemed to do it!, so now she assigned me bach's invention no.1 inplace of czerny now! 

thanks bernahrd

[nightlordq]

WOW, 7 HOURS! THATS SO LONG, more than enough. Some people only practice once in a week. You could turn into a pro quite fast.

[bernhard]

lol, i printed out what bernhard said and showed it to her, and that seemed to do it!, so now she assigned me bach's invention no.1 inplace of czerny now!   

thanks bernahrd 

You are most welcome. 

You must now make sure she does not come here and start snooping around the forum, for if she finds Marik´s posts you will be back to square one!

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2714.msg23310.html#msg23310
(how to teach invention no. 1)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8015.msg81149.html#msg81149
(ornamentation of invention no. 1)


Best wishes,
Bernhard

[db05]

You must now make sure she does not come here and start snooping around the forum, for if she finds Marik´s posts you will be back to square one!

I suggest doing Czerny's Method for Beginners if ever you need a compromise. Like I said, they're like short pieces as opposed to technical exercise.

You're lucky enough you're not made to do Hanon. 

[allemande]

If this is your daily routine, i would highly suggest you take 30min to hour breaks after every hour before starting again, and a 7 hour daily practice routine is too much. Perhaps not only at a physical level, but for your mind.

Practice and studying is useless if you are not concentrated, and after 45 min to an hour, the mind tends to get very distracted and lose concentration.

[richard black]

Well, I would rather gnaw my own arm off than submit to a routine like that, but each to his own. What does strike me, though, is that you've got all that time allocated to practising scales and technical exercises, and none specifically set aside for practising tone. Busoni apparently used to sit and play single notes, then chords, for hours until he was satisfied by the sound he was making.

[frank_48]

If this is your daily routine, i would highly suggest you take 30min to hour breaks after every hour before starting again, and a 7 hour daily practice routine is too much. Perhaps not only at a physical level, but for your mind.

Practice and studying is useless if you are not concentrated, and after 45 min to an hour, the mind tends to get very distracted and lose concentration.

really? that hasnt happened to me. i find that after an entire days practice i have made sufficiant progress on every aspect. and i do take about 10-15 minute breakes after each interval of study.

Well, I would rather gnaw my own arm off than submit to a routine like that, but each to his own. What does strike me, though, is that you've got all that time allocated to practising scales and technical exercises, and none specifically set aside for practising tone. Busoni apparently used to sit and play single notes, then chords, for hours until he was satisfied by the sound he was making.

i tend to practice tone when actually practicing the pieces im doing.

[allemande]

really? that hasnt happened to me. i find that after an entire days practice i have made sufficiant progress on every aspect. and i do take about 10-15 minute breakes after each interval of study.

i tend to practice tone when actually practicing the pieces im doing.

Well then hats off to you my friend 

[richard black]

Playing Piano is the easiest thing in the world, All you have to do is have the right finger on the right key at the right moment.

Er, and going down at the right speed, too, surely?

I don't want to make it sound too complicated but facts is facts!