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Topic: Help with Ocean Etude op.25 no.12  (Read 3966 times)

Offline clara.schumann

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Help with Ocean Etude op.25 no.12
on: August 17, 2008, 05:09:41 PM
Hello, I started recently working on the etude op.25 no.12 by Chopin.
I don't really know what to do with it and how to approach this etude! I tried playing it in chords but I feel that what I'm doing is a waste of time, I don't even know if I'm supposed to work on it with both hands or not... I would be glad to hear from anyone who ever played this etude, what worked for him and where to begin, because I can't even ask my teacher (I'm on a summer vacation in the US right and when I'm back in two weeks I'm supposed to show it to her! So I'm also running out of time).
Thanks in advance
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Offline lau

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Re: Help with Ocean Etude op.25 no.12
Reply #1 on: August 17, 2008, 08:19:15 PM
i think when you're going up your arms should learn right and lean left when descending. and just make sure the fingerings switch from 1 to 5 are smooth.
i'm not asian

Offline frank_48

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Re: Help with Ocean Etude op.25 no.12
Reply #2 on: August 18, 2008, 01:18:16 AM
I found some information on this etude that might be helpful to you.

Download this study guide and turn to page 22.
Playing Piano is the easiest thing in the world, All you have to do is have the right finger on the right key at the right moment.

Offline a-sharp

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Re: Help with Ocean Etude op.25 no.12
Reply #3 on: August 18, 2008, 05:35:37 AM
Clara... ;)

I'm working on this ... I have practiced it all different ways - according to what needs work the most. Although I *should* have started off by blocking chords, I didn't do that right away... I probably did practice H.S. initially - just to get the feel of each chord in each hand, how they progress, what changes, what doesn't  - then the same with H.T. - how the chord changes related to each other...  The hardest part for me is the descending parts - where the RH pinky replaces the thumb - I have isolated those specific movements - using my RH thumb as an anchor - both incredibly slow-motion, and quckly - just the change of thumb-pinky - and then, 5-2-1-5 as a quick grouping (I hope this is making sense) ... I just make sure I'm not practicing it the same way every time. I think - do whatever you need to do to get it into your system (the *learning* process), and then - whatever you need to do to get and keep the accuracy (the challenge with me).

Practice with and without pedal (I hear and feel different things with each) ... One time, I was so frustrated with my 'sloppiness,' that I slowed it down and I made the 1-5 (or 5-1) changes without letting the key come back up. Sounds crazy, but it helped.

When I'm being super-disciplined, i always try to end a practice session of that piece with a slow-motion run-through (but I'm not always that disciplined).

I have no idea if any of this helpful or not ... but, I think you just have to pick a section and do whatever works to get it in your hands, as simplistic as that sounds. Take is a section/phrase at a time. In the end (better, while you're doing that), try to make it *musical* ... there's nothing worse (IMO) that a non-musical performance of that etude - especially when one is missing a ton of notes, LOL .

I'm sure there are more great suggestions from other folks here... Good luck!

Offline general disarray

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Re: Help with Ocean Etude op.25 no.12
Reply #4 on: August 18, 2008, 04:48:32 PM
Clara,

Check out this thread:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,30301.msg350769.html#msg350769


and this follow-up thread:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,30426.0.html

I never nailed this etude until I stopped thinking about it technically.  Concentrate on phrasing the tune.  Practice that thumb line with exaggeration, keeping the arpeggiated stuff VERY soft, with a nice ringing tone at the top (wave "crashes").  On the decending patterns, which are the hardest, take your time, slow it down almost imperceptibly -- really psychologically -- and keep in mind the next thumb melody note.  Breathe with the phrases to keep from rushing. 

Sounds nutz, I know, but this approach worked for me and made the etude sound like some of my favorite performances of it -- very musical and singing . . . and not all "butched-up" and bangy. 

Also, a-sharp has some terrific practice ideas I'd consider, if I were you.
" . . . cross the ocean in a silver plane . . . see the jungle when it's wet with rain . . . "

Offline a-sharp

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Re: Help with Ocean Etude op.25 no.12
Reply #5 on: August 19, 2008, 04:12:50 AM
hey - thanks for posting that thread with the link to the video - I had seen that before but couldn't find it.

I completely agree with gen. dis. too... I've not yet performed it - but what he says is true for me when it seems to be 'working' ... after all that technical, tedious stuff - just breathe & let "flow"... Mental focus becomes more of an issue with me at some point.... It's memorized, and i know where it's going - but my brain goes away & then it comes to a halt until I reel my mind back in LOL :P

Offline eric_wong1387

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Re: Help with Ocean Etude op.25 no.12
Reply #6 on: August 19, 2008, 09:39:41 PM
a-sharp's ideas are nice indeed.

Try playing staccato too, that really helped me get the piece under the fingers.  The accent at the top of each arpeggio is very important to get right too, I thought my phrasing began to sound much better when I started to emphasize that a bit more.

I don't know if anyone else has this problem, but the toughest part of this etude for me are the arpeggios in the left hand that go C-F-C-C-F-C-etc.  The gap between the F and the upper C in each segment is very hard for me to get right.   It is especially annoying when in the next bar, the left hand goes C-F-B-C-F-B-etc.  The differences in the motions required for those bars are very slight.

Good luck with this one!

Offline clara.schumann

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Re: Help with Ocean Etude op.25 no.12
Reply #7 on: August 21, 2008, 02:59:03 AM
Clara... ;)

I'm working on this ... I have practiced it all different ways - according to what needs work the most. Although I *should* have started off by blocking chords, I didn't do that right away... I probably did practice H.S. initially - just to get the feel of each chord in each hand, how they progress, what changes, what doesn't  - then the same with H.T. - how the chord changes related to each other...  The hardest part for me is the descending parts - where the RH pinky replaces the thumb - I have isolated those specific movements - using my RH thumb as an anchor - both incredibly slow-motion, and quckly - just the change of thumb-pinky - and then, 5-2-1-5 as a quick grouping (I hope this is making sense) ... I just make sure I'm not practicing it the same way every time. I think - do whatever you need to do to get it into your system (the *learning* process), and then - whatever you need to do to get and keep the accuracy (the challenge with me).

Practice with and without pedal (I hear and feel different things with each) ... One time, I was so frustrated with my 'sloppiness,' that I slowed it down and I made the 1-5 (or 5-1) changes without letting the key come back up. Sounds crazy, but it helped.

When I'm being super-disciplined, i always try to end a practice session of that piece with a slow-motion run-through (but I'm not always that disciplined).

I have no idea if any of this helpful or not ... but, I think you just have to pick a section and do whatever works to get it in your hands, as simplistic as that sounds. Take is a section/phrase at a time. In the end (better, while you're doing that), try to make it *musical* ... there's nothing worse (IMO) that a non-musical performance of that etude - especially when one is missing a ton of notes, LOL .

I'm sure there are more great suggestions from other folks here... Good luck!

Thanks a lot! the funniest thing, is that the changing 1-5 without letting the key back up method actually helped me, and i hope the others will too...
and thanks a lot everyone else, you really helped me guys! now i have a lot of things to consider and i dont fell like i'm stuck and don't know where to begin.
good luck to everyone :)

Offline robertp

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Re: Help with Ocean Etude op.25 no.12
Reply #8 on: August 24, 2008, 03:08:47 PM
The practicing staccato suggestion is very worthwhile. I do it with both hands, and then one hand staccato and the other legato, and then reversed. Really nasty is to alternate measures legato and staccato, following the same principle. But for me it paid off.

I found the chord approach valuable when first learning the piece, and again when I had it going fairly well. But it can be very frustrating -- feeling that you've got the chords, you've thus got the notes and the piece ought to start moving. Hah.

Some physical things made a big difference. Whack the bottom and top notes of each "run" -- you need the accents anyhow, and it relaxes the fingers. Don't try to play it with beautifully curled fingers -- your hands will lock up. A little flatter, especially when one hand is play all black keys. Most important I found, is to stay away from the fallboard except when you need a black key, and then get away from the fallboard as soon as practical. It's easier to play "out there".

Finally, after doing all of these things and getting them fairly well ingrained, my big revelation was -- let your hands go where they want to! But this only works once you've got the gestures automatic.

For me, this worked. I took it into mm mid60s without excessive pain.
Piano: August Foerster 170
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