Does Anyone Have Trouble With Speed?

[kayordee]

It seems to me that there must be some kind of a big blocking wall between fast playing and SUPER SPEED (the kind of speed you need for fast runs and pieces like fantasy impromtu op.66). I have no clue on how to practice to get this speed I need. I have tried many times before, I just cannot get past this wall that seperates fast from REALLY fast (the virtuosos on this forum should know what I'm talking about).
 Any Suggestions please. I feel this is stopping me from playing alot of simple pieces with really fast runs/finger work in them

[Bob]

I did.  I had a wall for scale speed and I guess arp's but I didn't worry about them so much.  100   ooooo.  That was a big deal.  Couldn't go any faster. 

I just made a routine that covered scale stuff and finger patterns.  And more things.  Just basics.  Did it everyday.  Pretty dry, dull stuff, except for the physical aspect.  The consistent playing helped.  Doing the same stuff everyday.  The pushing it to strain things and easing back to heal/re-control/recover.  Result?  More control over the muscles (and new muscles for control too.  That's the point of carefully stressing them a little).  Scale speed went up.  But by the time it went up -- years -- It wasn't a surprise. 

Works for anything.  But it would have to.  If you speed some time each day doing things, pushing them, easing back (push-ease takes week at least), then eventually the body will adjust.  You can tell when you're overding it, and you just back off. 

Scales, arp, etc.  Just do them in all the keys.  That's at least 12-15 there depending on how you think of it.  Double that with the minors.  30 scales each day is going to start to have some effect. 

That was opposed to spend at least a few weeks to get the notes of a challenging piece under my fingers.  Then being able to push the speed.  Why wait?  Why not push now, and push a little everyday if you can?

But focusing on physical stuff just gives you physical results.  Yes, I can play faster, but... I can play faster scales.  I didn't learn literature in that time. 

Still, I don't know any other way, except working on more "medium" challenging pieces for me.  That's another way I think.

[db05]

I did, I still do. It depends on the piece... What are you working on, exactly?

My problem used to be broken chords on the guitar, my teacher suggested I do lots of arpeggios and use a metronome, but I'm stubborn.  I didn't do arpeggios exactly, just RH arpeggio patters. I had no problems with LH chords, so I just used the time to work on hammer-ons and pull-offs. Also for RH, block chords. If you can't do block chords, there's no way you can do broken chords quickly. I would always be uneven because of lack of control. I'm assuming you know about HS practice? You can see parallels between this broken chords problem on the guitar and parallel sets on the piano.

Another problem is rhythm. I will give my more advanced classmate as an example. She is studying the first part of Leyenda (Asturias) by Albeniz. The problems here are keeping a steady rhythm + speed and staccato + accents. In first sight, the rhythm isn't too complicated. Just 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 +. 123456 on the LH, ++++++ on the RH. (I treat 8ths as 1 beat to make things simpler at this stage.) But at final speed, it's hard to keep that basic rhythm. If your problem is similar, try this. Practice HS, just the beat. Tap on the piano or a flat surface along to a metronome. Change hands then speed up. This will be quite confusing for RH, so you could use a slower speed. LH is easy, so you could include the accent on 1 at this early stage. Continue until you can do HS beats beyond final speed. Now try playing the piano HS at a comfortable speed. It should be a lot easier now to learn the notes.

What baffles me is when the LH and RH are equally difficult, as in Bach. Even the easiest Bach pieces seem so difficult. I guess you have to grit your teeth and memorize the whole piece HS in this case, and ramp up to speed slowly.

Hope this helps.

[faulty_damper]

I have no problem with speed.

Do a search on "speed wall" and you'll get very relevant results.

[nyonyo]

If you have problem with speed most likely you do not have correct finger position or your wrist is stiff. You need to correct his first, otherwise, how hard you practice, you will not be able break the wall. I really suggest you need to get a teacher who can help you with this problem. Usually, Russian trained teachers are good in fixing incorrect technique.

If you have problem with FI, most likely your wrist is your problem. If you have problem with scale, most likely is your finger position. For trill, it is a different story, it is a combination of timing and consistent practicing. It can be frustrated, but if you keep racticing, usually within certain number of months, you will suddenly be able to play trills very fast.

Hope this helps.

[faulty_damper]

I agree with getting a qualified teacher but I disagree with getting a Russian teacher.  I recommend German because they were pretty successful at taking over much of Europe in the early part of the 20th century.  You can't go wrong with American because they were and still are very dominant.  And NEVER get a French teacher. 

[db05]

faulty, I wonder what you meant in saying that you have no problem with speed.

If I understand you right, you mean to say that a problem with speed is a symptom of a real problem in learning the music, e.g. finger position, stiff wrist, relaxation, rhythm...

Or do you actually mean that you never had trouble with a fast piece?

[moscheles001]

Check out Chang's book at https://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm. I've gotten a lot from it, particularly regarding speed.

[kayordee]

Ummm... yeah, there are quite a few pieces like FI that i can learn the ONLY barrier is speed also things like chopin's prelude op.28 no.24 D minor. I find it hard to relax whilst playing, Just cant seem to relieve tension esp. when playing loud.

[kard]

yea , check out chang's suggestions for the speed wall, my method is sorta different but chang's is spot on.
What I realised is that piano is not like voice. You can sing a whole phrase in one breath, but you certainly cant play a phrase with one keystroke. A piano's phrase is a succession of single breaths. The only thing that varies is the actual distance between those breaths. If you need legato, the distance is extremely short, but it still exists. So basically, you have the actual note duration, the space, and then the next note duration. Thats the basic concept...I don't really know how to explain the whole thing. Try it out eh?

[faulty_damper]

faulty, I wonder what you meant in saying that you have no problem with speed.

I can play anything at the correct musical tempo.

If I understand you right, you mean to say that a problem with speed is a symptom of a real problem in learning the music, e.g. finger position, stiff wrist, relaxation, rhythm...

I didn’t say any of this.  But in response, music has nothing to with “finger position, stiff wrist, relaxation, rhythm”.  These are technical issues, not musical ones.

Or do you actually mean that you never had trouble with a fast piece?

I used to have difficulty with playing fast and maintaining control.  Now I don’t.

[db05]

I can play anything at the correct musical tempo.
I didn’t say any of this.  But in response, music has nothing to with “finger position, stiff wrist, relaxation, rhythm”.  These are technical issues, not musical ones.
I used to have difficulty with playing fast and maintaining control.  Now I don’t.

Since when were music and technique separate?

Good, good. How did you manage to overcome that difficulty?

Sorry about the harsh tone, but to say "I have no problem with speed," doesn't help anyone. As for searching, I assume people here have common sense to do so. 

[faulty_damper]

Since when were music and technique separate?

I made no such claim.  You probably mis-read.

Good, good. How did you manage to overcome that difficulty?

I would tell you but, in my experience, it wouldn't help you nor anyone else so I won't bother writing about it.

I will probably write in-depth about one part of the speed problem because I haven't read it on this forum.

Sorry about the harsh tone, but to say "I have no problem with speed," doesn't help anyone.

By telling others that "I don't have a problem with speed" is saying that what is not (currently) possible for one person is possible for another.  In other words, it's piano-playing - not growing wings to fly.

As for searching, I assume people here have common sense to do so. 

Most people don't do a search.  That requires a bit of extra effort that they aren't willing to do.  The information they want is all here but most people will choose to do what's easy for themselves.

It's easier just to start a thread about the same topic that has been asked numerous times before.  This is the reason why there are so many duplicate threads about speed issues.  Another popular one is sight-reading.

These topics have all been discussed before.  There are indeed excellent information contained therein that would answer most questions and yet these threads proliferate.

However, at the same time I would not want to discourage asking questions but the answers are already present.

Starting another thread about an oft-asked question usually results in lack of interest by those who are very knowledgeable in that area.  As a result, the quality of responses in these duplicate threads drops to a basic or ignorant level by those who don't have the knowledge.

There are, of course, severe limitations of such an approach.  One of the limitations is that bad advice can proliferate because those who are knowledgeable don't want to challenge it again for the n-th time.

Sometimes this bad advice is clearly evident.  Sometimes it is not.  When that bad advice is naively believed?  Caveat emptor.

[rc]

I made no such claim.  You probably mis-read.

Actually, you did imply it:

But in response, music has nothing to with “finger position, stiff wrist, relaxation, rhythm”.  These are technical issues, not musical ones.

Maybe you mistyped?

I have nothing against your suggested search, but as you said the topics come up again an again, and this forum is vast.  If somebody has a specific question, it would probably be a lot more efficient to just ask it again rather than read every topic on 'sightreading', for example.

We could probably respond to 90% of peoples question with "do a search", or one up that and replace the whole forum with a list of books. 

...Or maybe the more experienced could just quickly type up their best advice, nyonyo gave a good direct answer based on what he knows of the problem.

[faulty_damper]

I re-read what I wrote and it was not even implied.  The misunderstanding probably occurred because the sentences were taken out of context with each other.  I did, however, quote "rhythm" which is, indeed, a musical aspect.  However, technical issues are not, and will never be, musical aspects.

As for doing searches, I agree that there are way too many different threads about the same questions which makes finding an answer difficult.

But the question of this thread is not specific.  It is a general question/issue.

When someone actually does do a search, it will be populated by these same threads.  It's like looking for a straw in a haystack of threads when it really should be like looking for a straw in a soda can.

nyonyo gave a good direct answer based on what he knows of the problem.

It may be direct but it is, in no way, a good answer.  The original issue did not contain enough information for any answer to address the question.

[db05]

Caveat emptor.

Okay.

Most people don't do a search.  That requires a bit of extra effort that they aren't willing to do.  The information they want is all here but most people will choose to do what's easy for themselves.

I search, and I don't realize why I am a minority here. It is easier for me to search for answers than to start a new thread and embarrassing myself by asking a basic question, or admitting that I have a problem with an easy piece to a bunch of strangers over the internet.

Maybe it's just time-consuming to search for a needle in a haystack. In that case, it is understandable and probably better to start a new thread.

I'm sure I misunderstood something. What do you mean, technical issues are not musical aspects?

...Or maybe the more experienced could just quickly type up their best advice, nyonyo gave a good direct answer based on what he knows of the problem.

Impossible. Given the unspecific question, there is no good or direct answer. Must wait for thread starter to specify which "simple pieces with really fast runs/finger work" he's working on. (Or we can keep the thread going by ourselves, throwing random information in the air.)

...Still waiting... 

[concerto_love]

yeah, I have trouble with speed. I play like a snail when my sis play like f1 racer...

[rc]

I re-read what I wrote and it was not even implied.  The misunderstanding probably occurred because the sentences were taken out of context with each other.  I did, however, quote "rhythm" which is, indeed, a musical aspect.  However, technical issues are not, and will never be, musical aspects.

I see - so you DID say technique and music are seperate aspects

It may be direct but it is, in no way, a good answer.  The original issue did not contain enough information for any answer to address the question.

Yes, I also chose my words carefully.  It's a good guess based on the nature of the question, and sometimes those guesses can be accurate or at least contain a kernel of something useful for the person.

A few thoughts:

- if someone asks a general question, someone with experience can refine it by asking questions.  It makes me think of how my teacher is always asking me difficult questions to help specify things for me. Because I don't know the topic at hand, all I have is a vague idea, and wouldn't know how to specify.  It's why the doctor diagnoses and not the patient.

- Links to the best threads.  Like Bernhard used to do.  "the issue you have has been covered, right here (link)".  Because somebody who's been around a while would have a much easier time knowing where the good posts are...  That gives me another idea

- I remember m1469 once tried to index the forum, so all the useful threads could be found.  I don't believe it ever worked out, maybe it was too ambitious, but I've seen in other forums a FAQ, and links to some of the more important threads (I mean, it doesn't need to be a huge cumbersome thing).  It might be worthwhile to take another stab at making a FAQ.  Certainly a better use of time than quibbling over semantics.

[db05]

- I remember m1469 once tried to index the forum, so all the useful threads could be found.

Here it is:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,9159.0.html

That's a lot of links; do they all work? Sometimes I read old posts and find some links that don't work.

[Bob]

Nothing wrong with snails.     (   (    (  _@/


The index would have taken a lot of time and energy to maintain.  Lot of work required.


I don't see anything wrong with asking question and searching.  New people, new replies.  It's not as much fun if you have to do some work and look things up like that.  The forum is interactive.

[db05]

Nothing wrong with snails.     (   (    (  _@/

The index would have taken a lot of time and energy to maintain.  Lot of work required.

I don't see anything wrong with asking question and searching.  New people, new replies.  It's not as much fun if you have to do some work and look things up like that.  The forum is interactive.

Hmmm. Maybe concerto_love can play As Slow as Possible. But seriously, if you can play piano, you're no snail!

Still a shame that it wasn't continued. At least a FAQ would be nice. I think it is still possible to index the best threads, if only there are a lot of people working on it. Say, I work on Bach, you Chopin, and this other guy practice methods. Indexing committee of serior members who have been here in a while. All in one thread. Also, no need to post all the links if there's is one thread that contains a number of links. A best links category!

Well said, Bob! It might be the same question, but every time it's a different person, different situation!

Edit: I'm a serior member now! Yes, my dream has come true.

[faulty_damper]

I see - so you DID say technique and music are seperate aspects

They are indeed but you are still taking it out of context.  This is not the same from the point of view of performance which was how my original statement was probably understood.  I was not speaking about performance.

if someone asks a general question, someone with experience can refine it by asking questions.

I agree.  But again, oft-asked questions receive little interest from those who've responded many times before which means the likelihood of such refining questions will probably be low.

[concerto_love]

my junior told me that I play heavily, why can't I play lightly?

[db05]

my junior told me that I play heavily, why can't I play lightly?

Your practice piano must be heavy. I got that problem, too, since I got an old piano fixed so I can practice. Before that, I used a keyboard. No weight at all. But using the pianos at school then was no problem. Now I have a problem when I have to use keyboard again, or a lighter piano. Ack, I don't think I worded this correctly, but I hope you get it.

[concerto_love]

thanks db  maybe because my technique is not good after all... I should practice more then...

[db05]

thanks db  maybe because my technique is not good after all... I should practice more then...

Ack, practicing more doesn't mean you'll get better. Just be more careful and avoid the heavy pianos. I think I regret now having the old pianos fixed. Should have bought a weighted digital.

[bernhard]

Here are a few threads that discuss the problem of speed. In them you will find intellectual reasoning, but also pragmatical advice. I strongly suggest that you do not get carried away by the intellectual reasoning (“I agree / I disagree... because...), but  instead try to follow the pragmatical instructions to the letter and with an earnest desire to investigate if they work for you (or not). Then and only then come back for more intellectualism (Remember that an intellectual believes that oral sex means to spend the whole evening talking about sex)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3371.msg30141.html#msg30141
(zoom-zoom – all about speed playing – example: 3rd movt of Moonlight)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3778.msg35061.html#msg35061
(Speed: discussion about gradually speeding up with a metronome or using Chang’s approach)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4851.msg47341.html#msg47341
(Practising for speed – Example: Beethoven Op. 49 no. 2)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5083.msg48306.html#msg48306
(More questions on fast speed practice – the eldorado analogy - collection of links)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2076.msg17157.html#msg17157
(Speed – the 3 most important factors)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2230.msg20686.html#msg20686
(Octaves and fast octaves – excellent post by Robert Henry)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4282.msg39831.html#msg39831
(How to increase speed: slowly using metronome x fast with chord attack – juggling and skiping rope as examples)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4144.msg40259.html#msg40259
(improving speed of LH – move the whole LH not only fingers)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8322.msg84686.html#msg84686
(speed and muscle tension – 3 important components of speed playing)

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[concerto_love]

thanks, sir!! It's really helping!!

[landru]

Thanks for this topic and for Bernhard's posting of the links. I had hit a speed wall in a Kabalevsky etude that was supposed to be teaching me about speed. I just wasn't getting it into any fast shape.

The problem was that I was tense (my teacher sez it looked like I was clenching the keys I was so tight).

But I didn't know why I was tensing up so much and why it just didn't go smoothly. Well, after reading this post and Bernhard's links, I think I figured it out.

1) I didn't have it memorized
2) I didn't practice HS at faster tempos

Essentially everyday during my practice I was reinforcing my steady-state medium speed by just going through it again and again..."Duh!" is what I should have realized...of course I wasn't going to get faster. The tension was coming from micro-uncertainties in what I was playing and coordinating both hands in something for which they had never trained individually.

So for the last two days I've sat down and finally memorized most of it AND ran through it HS on faster tempos. So when I went to hands together and at speed - OH MY GOD - I tore down that speed wall, it was like I was a different pianist.

THANK YOU for posting this question and reminding me yet again of something I should have known. Yeah this is a topic that has been discussed again and again - but all of us forget sometimes and need refreshing!

[momopi]

this is very helpful! thank you very much

[vilius]

I am far from a virtuoso, so I can only repeat what my teacher used to tell me. I hope I can explain well enough.  Let's say you want to play the notes C, D, E, F and G really fast after each other. First of all, actually doing something faster is not a problem. What takes some practising is removing all that unneccessary muscle work that slows you down. So what you do, is play these notes very slowly after one another. First play the C in stacato, and then listen to it die out. Make sure every muscle in your body is relaxed (whole body, not just arms), and there is no movement. There is no reason to move anything right now, because you're not playing any notes and any movement would hamper you when you're playing fast later. Make sure you're not stiff, but totally relaxed. Then do the same thing with the next note and so on. So what you've got now is this (in a time line of sorts):

C                    D                   E                    F                    G

And all you have to do now is remove the nothing inbetween the notes (no problem, seeing how it is "nothing") and swoosh them together. Like this:

CDEFG

Hope this was understandable. Give it a try and see if it helps you. 

[kayordee]

thanks this is helping alot this is easy

[allemande]

As my Teacher always tells me "Speed appears on it's own. One must be more worried about practicing and studying efficiently. It is more important to play correctly the pieces one has at their level, rather than to play them fast."

[juggernaut15]

anything faster than allegretto is hard to me

[dr. j]

Speed is usually expressed in qualitative terms like allegro, vivace, or presto - all of which mean different things to different people at any given moment in time.

However, when speed is indicated as a metronome marking - well, it then becomes quantitative and if indeed the mm is by the composer - the speed of a piece is less open to interpretation - so check it out - is the speed qualitative or quantitative? 

Dr. J
https://www.playpianosongstoday.com