Do you alternate hands when doing x7's?

[shingo]

Hey,
     I have just staretd reading Chang's book properly and have just read about the method of switching hands.

Practice the RH until it begins to tire, then switch to LH. Switch every 5 to 15 seconds, before iether the resting hand cools and becomes sluggish, or the working hand becomes tired. - II. Basic Procedures for Piano Practice, sec.7

     Does this mean therefore that when a section needs HS practice, whilst trying to complete the 7 coorrect repititions that Bernhard has taught it would be a good idea to alternate them and complete it this way? Thus ensuring the above, (no fatigue no coldness etc), and also that perhaps sections don't become automatic/un-thoughtful and there is a sufficient period of rest between them?

Thanks.

[faulty_damper]

You are combining two very different things.  If you are practicing HS, practice HS.  If you are repeating it by 7, you are ingraining.

By tire, it means muscular fatigue.  Fatigue usually results in poor control because the muscles are no longer able to contract in a controlled manner.  Switching hands prevents fatigue from setting in too soon allowing both hands to practice for greater lengths.

[db05]

Wow shin, you just asked what I've wanted to (but forgot to) ask in a while. Chang and Bernhard agree on a lot of things, but there are some conflict when trying to follow the book. I don't even know if there's a standard answer here. Maybe that's when individual thinking comes in??

[shingo]

You are combining two very different things.  If you are practicing HS, practice HS.  If you are repeating it by 7, you are ingraining.

Am I , oh dear. I just thought that when practicing HS it was still in order to complete the 7 repeats flawlessly with each hand before then putting them back together. Surely ingraining woiuld be good so as each hand now knows what it is doing correctly in the problem area?

Wow shin, you just asked what I've wanted to (but forgot to) ask in a while.

Glad to be of service 

     It probably is where individual thinking comes in, the question is probably a little too specific, I am sure that there can't be a dramatic difference either way round. At the most the alternate hand would only be inactive for a few minutes.

     I might try out the alternations though and see how they go. The only thing I think which may be problematic is the constant change breaking the 'concentration' of the other hand thus taking longer to get it to grips with the section...I don't know.

[db05]

     It probably is where individual thinking comes in, the question is probably a little too specific, I am sure that there can't be a dramatic difference either way round. At the most the alternate hand would only be inactive for a few minutes.

     I might try out the alternations though and see how they go. The only thing I think which may be problematic is the constant change breaking the 'concentration' of the other hand thus taking longer to get it to grips with the section...I don't know.

Dr. Chang is more into the physiological mechanics of playing. Sir Bernhard provides the best learning methods based on psychology. One knowledgeable in both fields, plus the finer aspects of music and piano, should be able to answer any piano question. But LOL, we are not that person.

I wish I learned this in high school, and applied it in college. But then I wouldn't be studying music right now.

Just a theory, but maybe the 7x rule is there so that you can retain a little, and forget a little. That way, you have a stronger memory when you rememorize it the next day. But if that is the case, then memorizing an entire section in a day is out of the question, but at the end a week or month practice it is perfectly memorized, even performable.

In this case, you might not be able to learn on demand i.e. finish a section in time for the weekly lesson. But suppose you really drilled in your HS and not limit yourself with 7X20, cramming everything on lesson day or the night before, would it work out? Or would you forget so much the next day, that it was useless?

Better try it for yourself. Even before I learned about these methods, (that is, by my intuition) I used HS + segmental practice and repeated phrases 8 times in practice sessions of 30 minutes. When I found out about 7x20, I was convinced that I was on the right track.

But you can completely disregard what I said! Despite what I learned, am still a slow learner compared to my classmates.  I have no "intuitive methods" to go back to, since my own method (8x30) is the unusual one. I tried, but ramping up HT like what they normally do is something I can't do.

[0range]

One common misconception is that you're supposed to only practice to seven perfect consecutive repeats, be it HS or HT. This is rarely the case. The aim of your practice session is to get to the point where you can not only repeat something seven times, but to where you can't get it wrong. The seven times rule is simply a guideline to make sure that you don't over practice and start to fatigue and get sloppy.

Now, at the end of your practice session, it is a good idea to end on the seventh repeat, as long as you've reached the point where it is so mastered that you can't get it wrong.

[faulty_damper]

To quickly clear up any more confusion:

7 repeats is specifically a memorization technique.  If you haven't memorized the small segment in 7 repeats, the segment is too large so make the segment smaller by cutting it in half.  If after 7 repeats and it is memorized, then it was a manageable chunk.  If not, then cut it again in half until the segment is small enough to be memorized in 7 repeats.


In terms of ingraining a simple movement, not memory, that movement must be repeated about 700 times if you've had good sleep.  If not, you'll have to repeat more than a thousand times to ingrain the movement.

However, this assumes that the correct movements have been discovered and it can be repeated 700 hundred times.  Usually, this is NOT the case and if repeated fatigue will very quickly set in.

FYI:  Repeating a simple movement (about a second in duration) 700 times takes about 12 minutes to complete.  Most learning pianists never come close to this number.  See CC Chang for the explanation.

[bernhard]

     Does this mean therefore that when a section needs HS practice, whilst trying to complete the 7 coorrect repititions that Bernhard has taught it would be a good idea to alternate them and complete it this way? Thus ensuring the above, (no fatigue no coldness etc), and also that perhaps sections don't become automatic/un-thoughtful and there is a sufficient period of rest between them?

Thanks.

I believe that the answer to your question has already been discussed here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3085.msg27140.html#msg27140
(Hands together: when and how – dropping notes)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4123.msg37829.html#msg37829
(How to investigate the best movement pattern: Example Scarlatti sonata K70 – How to work out the best fingering. Example: CPE Bach Allegro in A – Slow x slow motion practice – HS x HT – practising for only 5 – 10 minutes)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3085.msg44855.html#msg44855
(Hands together – dropping notes – when to learn HT and when to learn HS)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3039.msg26525.html#msg26525
(how big are your hands, and does it matter?  7 x 20 minutes – exercise/activities to strengthen the playing apparatus – ways to deal with wide chords – the myth that Richter was self-taught – 3 stages of learning – Example: Chopin militaire Polonaise - scientific principles for testing practice methods – Example: Prelude in F#m from WTC1 – when to join hands and why HS – practice is improvement – the principle of “easy” – Example: Chopin’s ballade no. 4 – repeated groups)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4689.msg44184.html#msg44184
( 20 minutes – practice starts when you get it right – definition of mastery : learned – mastered – omniscience – Aim for easy – final speed in practice must be faster than performance speed – Example: Chopin Op. 10 no. 2 – outline – repeated note groups – HS x HT)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4797.msg45744.html#msg45744
(No skipped steps –the usual places where students go wrong – Ht x HS)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4858.msg46087.html#msg46087
(Paul’s report on B’s method. HS x HT – Example: Lecuona’s malaguena – 7x20 – need to adjust and adapt – repeated note-groups – importance of HS – hand memory – 7 items only in consciousness – playing in automatic pilot - )

And of course, Faulty is right (has he ever been wrong?)

If you are still dissatisfied, come back.

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[beethoven_fan]

Hi, Bernhard !

Where have you been ? You have disappeared for a while ! I have subscripted to Pianostreet only a few months ago.
You don't know me. But, I have been reading a lot of your posts and I want to tell you that you've been a great help for me. Thank for your advice on the forum. Welcome back !

[shingo]

Thanks faulty_damper for expanding on those elements, as it is perhaps apparent I have not finished Chang's book yet so no doubt I will also improve my understanding of this and similar areas upon completion.

     Wooo Bernhard, in my thread  ! Thanks for all the links provided, I have steadily been reading through a list of your posts and these shall be added to the list right away. 

    Although I had been gradually implementing your teachings into my regime I have decided to follow your techniques, and those of Chang for the following year as best I can too see how they work for me and compare the result to that of my previous behaviour, which is why I was surprised but glad when I saw your return