Does believing in God help you play better?

[ahmedito]

Ive seen all the talk between the atheists and the theists in this forum, and Ive got a question...

Many of the worlds greatest musical masterpieces have a strong bond with the spiritual and with religious belief. I wonder, does being a hardcore atheist wreck any insight you could have about the spiritual core of this music?

Im sure an atheist musician could have marvelous insight into the structural elements that conform a piece, and the psycological relationships that spring from it, but would he be able to understand the feeling of faith, or love of God that underlies so many of these compositions?

I mean, when playing many of Bach's works or Mozart's or many other composers (especially the religious works) I sometimes feel deeply moved, in the way that an atheist would not understand... Its when you feel in your heart that God exists, and that he loves mankind, and that anything in this world is not important at all, because there is something beyond that is much greater.... I dont think an atheist would understand, because if he could relate to that feeling, he would believe in God.

But... can he fake this feeling? or is it really necesary to play this music as it should be played?

[donjuan]

I am an atheist.  

I play piano.  I make music.

I love music.  I dont love God.

Yes, Bach did state once that the reason for all music should be GOD.  
Now, I am an atheist, so what I say may be regarded as uninformed, or ignorant by the many brainwashed religious types.

that was a harsh comment..

sorry, but I dont know what an art form- music, creating emotions for the world, a language all on it's own- has to do with "facts" a group of people made up a long time ago, and people decided to follow them.  

Some things I know for sure:

All religions cant be true, because the Christians will be punished for not being Hindu, and the Hindu will be punished for not being Christian.

The Catholic religion is most certainly not true because they keep making up excuses and rules as time passes.  Everything seems to be based on old wives tales. (eg. If you masturbate, you will go blind (if this is true, 97% of the world would be blind..))
I went to a Catholic school for many years, but I kept getting into trouble for asking questions no one could answer.
--------------------------------------------------
I believe music is human emotion.  Human stories...
I admit, some Bible Stories are great, great, GREAT ..........fiction.

Music- a fountain piece for example (Liszt- Les Jeau deu a la villa d'este) is a brilliant nature piece, not having anything do do with humans or their religions.  Nature is Music.  Music is nature.

In conclusion, I believe music is much bigger than humans, and therefore, far greater than anything made up by humans, like religion.

I have a feeling many people who read this hate me now..

donjuan

[Tash]

i can't say i've ever really thought about it. i personally don't define myself into any particular religion though i wouldn't call myself an aethiest because i do believe that there mot probably is a god out there. however it has never really affected my piano playing, now whether if i decided to become more interested in religion and god if that would make my pianoing better or not i don't know, i obviously haven't tried it and i don't think that just now thinking 'oh believeing in god will help me play better' cos that would just be stupid and would do nothing whatsoever.

but if you believe that your faith in god helps you play then that's bril. but i personally don't play with anything spiritual/religious in mind because the pieces i play generally don't have anything to do with it (or not that i'm aware of).

[janice]

I am an atheist.  

Tell me about the God you don't believe in, because I might not believe in him either.

I have a feeling many people who read this hate me now..

NEVER!!!!  I would NEVER hate you!!  I don't hate. Period.

(I'm not sure if I did these quotes right!  But you get the idea!)
 Donjuan, how about if you send me a private message, so that we can dialogue about this, because I think that both of us have alot to say about this!  Personally, I believe in God and I believe that Jesus died for my sins, and I love Him!  I'm not out to "convert" you or anything, because I agree with alot of what you said.

[willcowskitz]

There can exist spiritual experiences other than those related to already-existant mass religions. Atheism is just a trend nowadays, and when you look at some people who "know" that science explains everything, you can find that science is actually just another religion for most people - these people don't understand the numbers behind the laws, but they believe what the scientists tell them is true, therefore they only have fate, not understanding in these concepts. From this point of view its hipocritical to put science above religion. Similarly, many who claim to be believers in God have zero actual fate. Many people who claim to be atheists have their own kind of perceptions about the universe that they explain by "theories" that would fall into the metaphysics category, this is no less than certain form of religion, even if it hasn't got a book of it's own nor massive populace of empty-headed people willing to war for their "book".

[A.C.]

Oops...Willcowskitz almost diverted me to another topic called "Religion vs Science", lol! Okay...back to the topic "Does believing in God help you play better?" now...

I'm personally a heathen, as I believe in my own religion. I do believe that there is a "God" behind us, who create everything for us in this world, including the wonderful "music". The miraculous existence of music is like a gift from God, which people always think it is the "sound" of God. People use music to serve God, try to perfect every single facet of music, and God will in return send us messages through his "voice". This is what many religious people and I believe in.

However, I also think that "religion" is a fact that we must learn. It is just like studying chemistry and history in high school. After you have learnt this fact, you'll have a new idea about music; nonetheless, what I strongly believe is that,

every single thing that you have learnt in your life will all contribute to your understanding in music, no matter it is as big as a culture or as small as an incident happens around you.

Therefore, music is not religious;

Music is, after all, humanisitic.

[ahmedito]

I agree with pretty much everything that has been said, and yes, music is humanistic... as is religion.

Ill rephrase my question:

Can you play some music as it should be played if you cant relate to the feeling of faith in God??

Stuff like: The Saint MAthew PAssion, Bach Chorales, Mozart MAss, Messian's Quartet, etc...

As you see, I posted this here and not in performance, because a lot of this music is not for the solo piano.... But, a lot of the organists out there will understand.

[Shagdac]

Believing in God, helps me do EVERYTHING better!!!!!

And believe me DonJuan...anyone who feels opposite of you, would NOT hate you. I respect and love anyone regardless of whether their beliefs are different than mine, just as I wouldn't expect you to hate me, for being a believer.

S

[amanfang]

I would tend to think that if the composer had a spiritual message in mind when composing the music, someone who interpreted it who believed in that same spiritual message would do a better job at getting across the original intent of the the comoser.  This is not to say that one must agree with the composer's spiritual beliefs in order to play something artistically.  Great music is still great music.  The question is, what is one trying to communicate?  Yes, I think spiritual belief will have an impact on that.

[faulty_damper]

"And believe me DonJuan...anyone who feels opposite of you, would NOT hate you."

I hate you, DonJuan.  Trust me, I hate you, fellow without theo.

I believe in God.  He goes by a more common name now.  His name is Franz Liszt.  He died more than a century ago, poor God.  I play better when I think of him.  Most definitely.  He was also god to many of the ladies.  For that, I admire him.  He died so that future pianists could play better than him.

[donjuan]

"And believe me DonJuan...anyone who feels opposite of you, would NOT hate you."

I hate you, DonJuan.  Trust me, I hate you, fellow without theo.

I believe in God.  He goes by a more common name now.  His name is Franz Liszt.  He died more than a century ago, poor God.  I play better when I think of him.  Most definitely.  He was also god to many of the ladies.  For that, I admire him.  He died so that future pianists could play better than him.

Yes, YES!!! I SEE THE LIGHT!! IT BURNS!!!!!

[donjuan]

I agree with pretty much everything that has been said, and yes, music is humanistic... as is religion.

Ill rephrase my question:

Can you play some music as it should be played if you cant relate to the feeling of faith in God??

Stuff like: The Saint MAthew PAssion, Bach Chorales, Mozart MAss, Messian's Quartet, etc...

As you see, I posted this here and not in performance, because a lot of this music is not for the solo piano.... But, a lot of the organists out there will understand.

There are some great pieces of music composed around Fictional stories from the Bible.  I just think people should enjoy the music and entertaining reading material and not treat everything like a cult.
Liszt's two legendes are some of my favorite pieces of music, and they are based on stories- great stories, I might add, about having the power to walk on water..

I think the best way to interpret music made by religious composers like Liszt, or Bach, is to create the music- retell a great Bible story to the audience in the language of music- but not to interpret the stories as anything more real.  

We dont go watch movies and come home, believing in the huge monsters you saw in the movie (well, not anymore, anyway..)

donjuan

p.s. Janice, I thought about personal messaging you, but i thought it would be better to discuss this stuff on the forum- Let the others give their opinions...

[tosca1]

A belief in God may help people live their lives better but I can see no causal connection between believing in  God and playing better.  Playing better depends on how effectively you can practise and your musical intelligence.  I believe that beautiful playing is transcendental and uplifting which may be similar to the spiritual experience of a belief in God for some people.  Today we live in a world of fractured values, but JS Bach's age was certainly more reverential to God and his incredible legacy of music is testimony to that.
Kind regards,
Robert.

[MzrtMusic]

While it's true that music is "just music" it can also be true that some kinds of music will touch us in ways that are unique. Some music is based on legends from Greek and Roman myths... Some of it is based on stories from the Bible that I believe to be true, and that (if you are truly interested) I could supply archeological evidence for. There is a plaque on a German Opera House that says "Bach gave us God's word. Mozart gave us God's love. Beethoven gave us God's fire. God gave us music, so that we could pray without words." There are so many threads on this forum about the most powerful piece we've ever heard. Or the piece that moves is to tears. Or a piece that has changed the way we think about music. It isn't just the notes or the sounds or the feelings that move us so much. I believe that the ability and the privilege to be moved by music is a gift from God. When I play, I am able to worship God in a very unique and special way. It is the most intimate kind of worship I've ever engaged in. And I can do it every day! God has given us a gift. If it's a gift to be able to play the music that other's have written, it is arguably a bigger gift to write such music. How do you get the ability to span cultures, decades, centuries, genders, and all of the different mindsets that we all have. How do you do that without divine inspiration? Why do we sit around and argue about "who is the greatest pianist" And we can't decide, but most of us can agree that there are a few composers that are truly in a league of their own. Beethoven, Mozart, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Alkan. Whomever you want. There are people who agree, out of the hundreds of composers, there are less than 10 who were the "best" at what they did. Where did they get the inspiration to cross all of those boundaries, and appeal to all of us? There has to be something more than human intelligence. The presence of God is all around us, we live everyday and see miracles, even if we don't always recognize them. I think that one of the most amazing miracles of all is the ability to create and play music. And it is truly a gift from God.

Love,

Sarah

[donjuan]

Do you have any evidence for anything you said, or are you just making sand castles in the air?  Why do you choose to perceive life and music according to what a group of people choose for you to believe?
donjuan

[tosca1]

"Chacun son goût" as the French say or each to his own....In matters of faith and belief empirical argument does not apply.
Robert.

[donjuan]

"Chacun son goût" as the French say or each to his own....In matters of faith and belief empirical argument does not apply.
Robert.

yeah, ure right...I shouldn't talk about religion or politics with people- the end result is never good...
MzrtMusic, dont bother responding, its a waste of time, im lost to the dark side...
donjuan

[faulty_damper]

Truth can only be found in Socrates.  It's there.  Just no one can attain it.  Kind of like enlightenment.  It's there.  You just can't attain it.

See, in certain schools of Buddhism, there is no Buddha.  It only exists in the mind.  Buddha does not exist outside the mind.

And then consider there are hundreds of different Buddha's, some very scary, some really odd, some just grotesque... but worship whichever of those you like.  Whether it is the dog-eating buddha, the most popular Kwan-yin, the common Fat buddha that most of the Western world only thinks of when they think of Buddha, the buddha with one really lond right forearm, the buddha with children coming out of its belly... etc. etc.

Some schools are becoming more like Christian/Catholic types - actively trying to recruit and make money to support the monks.  I guess if the Western institutions are really rich, they might as well copy their technique.

But off subject:  The last time I was in a Buddhist place of practice, there were some really attractive girls there!  Man, they were all so beautifully gorgeous with perfect bodies and beautiful skin.  I don't know what they were drinking - probably a lot of foul tasting water - but they were hot!  Except for that slightly fat older girl wearing red.  She was the only one wearing red as if her cherry has been popped.  All the other girls were wearing white tops with black shirt bottoms.  I guess they were vegetarians, too, cause they had the perfect bodies!  And they were only teenagers!  Man, they were hot... Yum...

If only Christian/Catholics were that hot, you'd have a convert!  Are you hot, Janice?  Yeah, thought so.  I'll stick with the logic.  

[faulty_damper]

And isn't being kept 'clean' part of their practice?  Oh man!  That means they won't have cooties, except for the girl wearing the red shirt.  But that's okay, she was kinda fat and not as attractive.  I swear, that temple only allows beautiful girls to attend.  This was years ago when I had to perform a dance during one of their ceremonies for something.  Don't know what.

Can't say that Christain/Catholic girls keep clean, can you?  They have cooties.  Lots of them.  Stay away from them.  It's for your health.  You can't get rid of it once you get it even if they were good.  Sure, it comes once in a while and lasts a couple of weeks and then goes away.  But that aint worth it.  They have cooties, stay away.  Stay away!

[ahmedito]

well.... thats a lot of stuff that I didnt ask.... no offense, but everything eventually turns into a theist vs atheist here.

by the way, Liszt is hardly a religious composer, Id say he was something like a wolf in priests clothing. I certainly dont mean pieces superficially based on a bible story just to sell better (which Im sure is what liszt did). I mean pieces that were written as an act of prayer.... as Bach did.

[janice]

what point are you trying to make by listing these ads from Google (at the bottom of the post above me)?  Of course there are frauds and stuff with being able to be an ordained clergyperson via mail.  these are gimmicks.  people need to realize that Christians have faults (and I'm doubting that the makers of these ads are true Christians) and that we shouldn't bring attention to the FOLLOWERS of Christianity (because all humans are imperfect) BUT to bring attention to CHRIST, who  IS perfect and is the object of our worship

[belvoce]

It is stupidly obvious that everyone here knows nothing, I repeat nothing about the Catholic church. Why try to bash religions when you don't know anything about them, or are unwilling to learn the truth about them and what they believe (intead of relying on rumors and the media)? We certainly have a lot of illogical and ignorant  minds in this forum.

[tosca1]

And some very impolite ones too...


:)Robert.

[f0bul0us]

Religion was never taken seriously in my highschool. My first year religion teacher had three children out of wedlock, going directly against the word of the Bible that she made us read out of week after week.

[Noah]

what point are you trying to make by listing these ads from Google (at the bottom of the post above me)?

Er... these are generated automatically by the forum I think. There seems to be a lot more ads lately (new banners and these google ads in threads).

[janice]

sorry, i didn't realize that they were generated automatically.  thanks for pointing that out for me  

[MzrtMusic]

Don Juan,

Yes, I do have evidence. I'm not just saying that to say it. It's not just sand castles. I don't mind posting it if you (or anyone else) is interested. But it is kinda long, so if anyone is interested, email me sfehrman@musician.org or send me a private message.

Love,

Sarah

[Derek]

I'd say believing in God helps me in a roundabout way, inasmuch as my faith and going to church and so forth augments my strength to persevere and to always try new things.

[Shagdac]

I hate you, DonJuan.  Trust me, I hate you, fellow without theo.  

I believe in God.  He goes by a more common name now.  His name is Franz Liszt.  He died more than a century ago, poor God.   I play better when I think of him.  Most definitely.  He was also god to many of the ladies.  For that, I admire him.  He died so that future pianists could play better than him.  


Yes, YES!!! I SEE THE LIGHT!!  IT BURNS!!!!!

Shame on you DonJuan and Faulty!

[donjuan]

who are you talking about when you say "group of people who choose for you".  Are you talking about the Catholic church?

I WAS refering to the people who ever made up the Bible- these "witnesses", if you will...

I believe the catholic Church has always been corrupt.  All I can think about is how at the one time during Luther's time when they sold "indulgences" (tickets to heaven) to the public as a way of gaining revenue to build a new cathedral.  The corrupt church officials [bought their way in to the church offices and took advantage of peoples beliefs- brainwashing them into thinking they could get into heaven by buying a ticket- an indulgence.

This little fact from the past shows me how bad the church really was...

However, I have a lot of respect for you, Janice.  You have a belief in Jesus Christ- not the Church, but the man.  What I cant understand is why you think its all true- how he "saved" everyone...how he could "heal" people...how people really know the Virgin Mary REALLY was a virgin?  (how do you know she wasn't raped, but too embarrassed to say anything about it?  that makes the most sense to me..)

I dont know...there isnt any solid evidence of Jesus' miracles.  I dont know how you can believe so strongly in a person you didnt know, but read about in articles written by "witnesses" who really, could have made everything up...
donjuan  

[faulty_damper]

Don Juan,

Yes, I do have evidence. I'm not just saying that to say it. It's not just sand castles. I don't mind posting it if you (or anyone else) is interested. But it is kinda long, so if anyone is interested, email me sfehrman@musician.org or send me a private message.

Love,

Sarah

So there is logic?  Post it.  Heck, start a new thread with the post.  I'm interested.  And also interested in what the a-theos have to say about it.

Three subjects that always gets people stirred up:
1. Politics
2. Religion
3. Social class

We are talking about number 2 and how the reference to a god makes me a better pianist.

Number 3 is exclusive of the poor who can't afford a piano or the lessons, the tunings of it, or the place to put the piano (house, apartment, condo, mansion, etc.)

Ever wonder why so many churches/cathedrals had so many organs?  Rich bastards.

Is god musically talented?  If so, do you think Liszt is his first son?

All great questions.

[Saturn]

Man, these threads sure go far off topic.  Without revealing anything of my own religious beliefs, I'm going to try to answer the original question:

I wonder, does being a hardcore atheist wreck any insight you could have about the spiritual core of this music?

Simple answer: no.

There are few different aspects of religion which can, and often do exist independently of each other.  One is the specific systems of religious teaching, such as Buddhism, Chrstianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, etc.  Another aspect is religious belief, which is a person's conscious and individual choice to believe in and/or follow a religious teaching.  Yet another aspect is the "religious experience", which is a feeling of enlightenment that people often experience in an environment far away from churches or priests.  Many people have a religious experience without ever becoming religious themselves because they choose not to.

The way this relates to music: music deals not with specifics (such as belief systems) so much as it deals with the experiential aspects of life, such as feelings and emotions.  Just as the actors in Schindler's List didn't need to be a part of the holocaust in order to properly portray their characters, they needed to be able to portray the experiences and feelings which their characters endured.

Some pieces depict love, others sadness, and others religious experiences.  These are all parts of music which the musician must take this into account and attempt to portray to the best of his ability.  This can be done by an atheist, but not by a cold-hearted or closed-minded person.  One does not need to be a Christian to perform Handel's Messiah, but to perform it without attempting to imbue it with the grandeur and inspiration Handel had in mind would be to do a disservice to the music.

But if, during the performance, a person in the audience feels the religious experience, even for just a moment, then the performer has done an excellent job, even if he himself did not feel it.  The musician must be an actor and must transcend simple concrete ideas such as religion, to portray the underlying experience.

Forgive my loquacity.

[willcowskitz]

Did anyone ever come to think that maybe JUST MAYBE the Bible could be all about symbolism. If it would be a book full of abstract descriptions of the universe and it's structure, nobody would understand it because people need something to TOUCH, they need something ACTUAL, something that can happen to them and what they can see with their eyes. Maybe that's why Jesus taught people by using metaphors that could apply to everyday life? So then a typical fundamentalist figures "Hey Jesus was one smart guy I'm sure I can trust him in everything related to questions I confront in life,"  and instead of trying to analyze what the reality of ideas "looks" like behind all that's been pulled over it, he takes the Bible as literally as possible which drops all strainful thinking off his mind. He doesn't even care of what the world is all about, he is happy with the superficial, "raw" sketch/outline of some basic laws that would help balance the world taking to notice the (seeming) complexity of human species as a social animal.

I can't help it, but religion and politics always gets down to this so I'll just say it:  Anyone who thinks that the appearance of the deepest essence of existence consists of "good" and "evil" or God (which is also thought of as a "person" by many people  ), Jesus, or any other concepts set within limits of the humble human understanding, should be denied the freedom to base their way of life on BELIEVING.

If Jesus did walk the Earth, he was just a link between the divine and the animals called humans, he only appeared as a homo sapiens because that's something we idiots can relate to at our best. If there's a Satan, that's us humans. We "sin" by even existing, admit it or not. I'm sick of blind fundamentalists force-feeding their ridiculously simplified world views to any "consciously" uncertain people who more or less suffer from lack of inner perspective to their Self which is only reflection of their environment. Its probably same kind of phenomenon as falling in love, your brain just starts producing chemical compounds that blindfold the rational mind and take control of one's behaviour, this being the basis for the individual's perception of the universe, people will as fundamentally believe in their religion and it's Absolute, Omnipotent and Exclusive Authenticity as they would be 100% confident they want to regenerate their genetic code with this special person they've fallen in love with. Madness?

[donjuan]

Man, these threads sure go far off topic.  Without revealing anything of my own religious beliefs, I'm going to try to answer the original question:


Simple answer: no.

There are few different aspects of religion which can, and often do exist independently of each other.  One is the specific systems of religious teaching, such as Buddhism, Chrstianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, etc.  Another aspect is religious belief, which is a person's conscious and individual choice to believe in and/or follow a religious teaching.  Yet another aspect is the "religious experience", which is a feeling of enlightenment that people often experience in an environment far away from churches or priests.  Many people have a religious experience without ever becoming religious themselves because they choose not to.

The way this relates to music: music deals not with specifics (such as belief systems) so much as it deals with the experiential aspects of life, such as feelings and emotions.  Just as the actors in Schindler's List didn't need to be a part of the holocaust in order to properly portray their characters, they needed to be able to portray the experiences and feelings which their characters endured.

Some pieces depict love, others sadness, and others religious experiences.  These are all parts of music which the musician must take this into account and attempt to portray to the best of his ability.  This can be done by an atheist, but not by a cold-hearted or closed-minded person.  One does not need to be a Christian to perform Handel's Messiah, but to perform it without attempting to imbue it with the grandeur and inspiration Handel had in mind would be to do a disservice to the music.

But if, during the performance, a person in the audience feels the religious experience, even for just a moment, then the performer has done an excellent job, even if he himself did not feel it.  The musician must be an actor and must transcend simple concrete ideas such as religion, to portray the underlying experience.

Forgive my loquacity.

You do an excellent job of sharing your insight.  Very reasonable, and logical.  You state things very effectively (so they cant rebut your statements) to any reader, religious or not.  Good show!
donjuan  

[faulty_damper]

It may be a good job but you how they are always able to rebut it and 'disprove' it.  That's why this thread got off topic so fast!  Instead of talking about the apple in the tree, they talk about the worm in the apple.  Simple diversive tactic that works as long as no one remembers the question.

[Locky]

Aren't there alot of passionate people! Good to see. Passion makes us good musicians!  

[ahmedito]

Seeing that very few people posted something about the original question.....

Saturn I appreciate your answer, but I kind of disagree because sadness, happyness and such are all human emotions.... as is the "religious experience".... a hardcore atheist, having never felt it, I think would have a harder time conveying it.... a member in the audience WOULD possibly get that emotion from listening, but only from the Haendel side of the performance, not the director and musicians.... and as we all should know, a perfect performance involves emotion and understanding from the performer as well.... dont you think? as for the rest of you, take your discussion to the appropiate posts.... PLEASE!

[donjuan]

we better be careful...or Ahmedito is going to throw his bible at us....

[Locky]

Do you hate Christians Donjuan?

Just from the comments like that, it would seem that you have no respect fo someone who has Christian beliefs.

True? I'm sure you won't hesitate to tell me your point of view.
                 Locky    

[rhapsody]

I do believe that faith has open our mind to a new dimension to music, not necessary religious works.
I always believe that music is one God's wonderful creation, I mean that he definetly set up the standard about how many hertz each not should be, and why is there a structure that keeps the music stands. Music is a gift from God to human kind (not just for the believer) and it transform itself to many representation, for example the nature.

But to answer the topics, i agree that having faith will help you play better. but please don't misunderstood me, NOT all christians play music well (even though they wanted to). But I trust that if you live the life as musician in PRAYER, FAITH and HARD WORK (practise makes perfect), God will bless you with all His wisdom towards music dan life, and the ability to play them well

You definetly wont go "wacko" if evetually you failed in music because you have that strong support

I'm soooo lucky to be a christian and to enjoy classical and hymns music that glorify the Maker

*rhapsody

[Saturn]

I always believe that music is one God's wonderful creation, I mean that he definetly set up the standard about how many hertz each not should be, and why is there a structure that keeps the music stands.

Unfortunately this is not true.  Perhaps I'm nitpicking here...

You could say that God established the complex system of sound, created by vibrations, and that we hear different frequencies as different pitches which we can perceive as music when played in an orderly manner.

But God didn't set how many hertz each note should be.  God didn't establish A as 440 hz.  In Bach's day, A was about 415 hz.  It's continually rising.  In fact, the entire system of music that we understand today, of musical staves, major and minor keys and tones and semitones, was developed by humans.  It was imposed by humans on the boundless and limitless spectrum of sound in order to make sense out of something we would not otherwise understand.

You give man far less credit fot the development of music than he deserves!

[janice]

But God didn't set how many hertz each note should be.

How do you know?  How can we know the mind of God?

 God didn't establish A as 440 hz.

Maybe He did, maybe He didn't.  Maybe He really doesn't care about how many hertz A is.  

 In Bach's day, A was about 415 hz.  

If indeed, God DID establish A at 440, if He truly IS Almighty God, then I would think that He has the right to change these laws anytime He wants.  Take for instance the Law of Gravity--we can basically be certain that if we drop something it will fall on the floor, right? But a helium balloon defies that law.  Hmmmmmm.  Did God create a helium balloon? Probably not, but He did create helium.

[Saturn]

Take for instance the Law of Gravity--we can basically be certain that if we drop something it will fall on the floor, right? But a helium balloon defies that law.  Hmmmmmm.  Did God create a helium balloon? Probably not, but He did create helium.

The law of gravity does not state that if you drop an object, it will fall on the floor.

Gravity is a bending of space (which we perceive as a force of attraction on other objects) which is an attribute present in all matter.  Therefore, nothing can defy gravity.

A helium balloon does not defy the law of gravity, because it is also subject to the laws which apply to objects submerged in a fluid (which do not contradict gravity).  If the object weighs less than the weight of the volume of fluid which the object displaces, then the object (naturally) has less gravity acting on it than the fluid does.  So the object floats up.  This doesn't defy gravity because if there were no atmosphere on earth, a helium balloon would fall to the ground like any other object.

What does all this have to do with music?  Not a thing, as far as I can tell.

If indeed, God DID establish A at 440, if He truly IS Almighty God, then I would think that He has the right to change these laws anytime He wants.

I don't really see where you're going with this.  The 440 A isn't a law.  If God did set A as 440, what about the early non-western cultures who didn't recognize this A, like the music of Asia or Africa?  Are these people more godless than Westerners?  Or did God give them a different set of pitches?

Now I'm thoroughly confused.  Did God confuse me?

- Saturn

[Spatula]

Believing in God, helps me do EVERYTHING better!!!!!

And believe me DonJuan...anyone who feels opposite of you, would NOT hate you. I respect and love anyone regardless of whether their beliefs are different than mine, just as I wouldn't expect you to hate me, for being a believer.

S

Of course! WORD UP MAN!  Yeah I'm with Janice with the same "feelings" or attitude re: God, but I'm not going to blacklist you (don juan) because you think differentlyor have a diff perspective, but umm that should have no interference with piano etc.  so stay cool!  

btw today I had a freezie pop thingy...umm yeah
er..hey Janice, come pri message me about what you think! cool eh?

[Spatula]

I now see why this topic is in the "anything but piano" board,  

[bachopoven]

I just want to saya few things on the subject:

1-One's Religiion is just a name. One's beliefs and convictions, now that is something worth talking about. That's becuase I for example have called myself a Christian and had no conviction of God's plans and had no relathionship with him for years. When I really believed and started a relationship with Chrsit is when the magic - for lack of a better word - happened. I know it comes from above since all the other circumstances have not changed. So wheather one has a relathionship with God or not is what the subject should be. We all know many religious people withtout a sign of being new-born.

2-I personally don't think that being a believer and Child of God helps to play music (even Bach) IN PARTICULAR with more ease or skills or expression. But it helps with all walks of life, including music and our outlook at life, , other people, ourselves, situations, you name it. But infinitely more impertantly, it makes us God's children. We will be with Him now and forever.

In the life in this world, God's words and council make us less stressed, more comforted, hard working, balanced, appreciative of our lives, our opportunities and the company of others. Tell me these are not things musicians would die for.  So the answer may also be yes, it helps.

But to answer the question directly, no, I don't think it helps. We have seen great talents from believers and non-believers alike.


3-About Bach's and other "church" music, if you ask me, it feels more meaningful if I am of the belief and can feel and testify to the words on the score. If there are no words/voice in the score, I don't know if there will be any difference.

4-And just to add, no believer should get angry at a non-believer, but should pray for him/her. And it may be hard for a non-believer to understand there is a God in heaven who can transform lives now and forever. All who have been there know how life is different until you've found the Lord.

[squiggly_girl]

Do you know that I have avoided reading the posts in this topic until now precisely because I feared it would be full of all the argy bargy going on up there. What a pity Ahmedito's central question keeps getting drowned out. It is an interesting one.

To add to the pertinent arguments that have been voiced already, (hopefully I didn’t miss any - it would be easy to do!) I tend to agree with the loquacious one. Take the movie “The Passion” as an example. Now I don’t know for certain, but I would be willing to bet that Jim Caviezel, who played the role of Jesus Christ, is not a Christian. Nor did he need to be in order to interpret the character of Christ in a way that moves an audience member. Whether that person be a Christian themselves, or not. Undoubtedly he had some direction, some suggestion from others who were informed through inner spiritual knowledge, if you will, about how Christ would act. His subtle nuances, mannerisms, etc.

With the interpretation of a piece I just don’t think that human beings are sensitive enough to notice the difference between someone who is interpreting well as an atheist, and someone who is interpreting from insider knowledge. I think the difference is simply that the performer will not feel the religious experience that the original composer did if they are not “in the know”, so to speak. I don’t think it will make a difference to the actual sound of the piece. Because sound is something physical, not spiritual.

[janice]

And it may be hard for a non-believer to understand there is a God in heaven who can transform lives now and forever. All who have been there know how life is different until you've found the Lord.

Oh so true!!!  My life has been transformed, and words can't describe it!

[willcowskitz]

With the interpretation of a piece I just don’t think that human beings are sensitive enough to notice the difference between someone who is interpreting well as an atheist, and someone who is interpreting from insider knowledge. I think the difference is simply that the performer will not feel the religious experience that the original composer did if they are not “in the know”, so to speak. I don’t think it will make a difference to the actual sound of the piece. Because sound is something physical, not spiritual.

But did the original question cover performing to audience or to self? Because if its the latter, I'm pretty confident that believing indeed can help one play "better". And yes sound is physical, as is everything, but we still have our imagination and spirituality to extend from that, and I think this either makes us human 100% physical as well, or makes the sound have surface where it and spirituality can "communicate". But as I don't know the real answer to whether everything is physical in the sense we know or not, I'll leave it at the stage of speculating both possibilities.

[klavierkonzerte]

i belive in god but beliving in him doesn't make anyone play better. practising hard does.

god ,as elgar said, is against music.
didn't liszt gave up composing and preforming late in his life for religious resons??