HOW BAD IS IT IN AMERICA?

[general disarray]

I'll tell you how bad it is.  The Mother Hurricane of all Hurricanes is pushing towards New Orleans and other Gulfport cities as I write this.  And, perversely, it's happening on the anniversary of the EARLIER Mother Storm of all Storms, Katrina, which all but destroyed New Orleans three years ago. And that part of America, where oil is refined and Afro-Americans are suppressed, is under a siege that only Nature can deliver.

And the irony of ironies is that the Republican National Convention, where John McCain -- the heir to George Bush's eight years of fascist policies, the infamous president of the current administration that let hundreds die in New Orleans after the last hurricane in New Orleans -- will be nominated, during this same time frame, in Velveeta-land Minnesota as the Republicans' choice for president.  Ironic, is it not?

And, he will win.  McCain will be the US's next president.

Shocking, isn't it?  But it's a fact, despite the charisma of Barack Obama and the historic precedence, racially speaking, of his nomination.  Obama deserves the honor, despite his  relative lack of experience.  But, it will take a miracle to elect him.  Racism and hatred of all those who are Muslim (and, therefore "terrorists") is the core of American belief systems.  And McCain is a hater.  He hates the Infidel.  He hates the non-Christian.    He urges a war-like stance and stupid Americans love that.  But not necessarily in NYC.  Or LA.  Or Chicago.  But everywhere else.  America is a nation so stupid that it does not know that it has embraced fascism and incorporated it into its social fabric.
 
We have lost almost all our constitutional guarantees.  Our phones, our computers can now be monitored by the government, without a warrant, under the guise of battling "terrorism.'  This is just the tip of the iceberg.  There is no more freedom here now than there was in Germany in 1929.

And now a gigantic natural disaster is threatening the Gulf states of America again.  One precipitated by the mismanagement of the Mississippi Delta through industrialization and pollution and the construction of inferior dams, levies and ill-conceived canals -- not to mention global warming that is spawning hurricanes such as this current one and Katrina before it.  New Orleans, literally, may not exist after this storm.

This is an extraordinary time to be alive if you are aware of history.  You have already seen the USA's slip from world leader to second tier nation in just 50 years.  $56 trilllion in debt, a dollar that is crashing in value, home foreclosures, credit industry crashes and bank failures.  And all of this in a country where much more is imported than exported and the average citizen has no savings and nothing but massive credit debt.

In earlier days, "Anything but piano" had great political debates.  Let's get one going here and forget this "spa" crap and "forum family" crap.

Let's talk about a World Order that is slipping away before our very eyes.  Let's be witnesses to this drama, if nothing else.       

[db05]

Relatively speaking, it is not so bad. Check out what has been happening here in the Philippines since we gained independence, and you'd be glad to be American.

I thought this sort of stuff wasn't allowed?

Political and religious discussions are not allowed in the piano boards. If such issues are discussed in the “Anything but piano” board it is of extreme importance to avoid any kind of personal attacks or offences as well as such intended against a group of people. Only postings that are objectively discussing the issue with well backed up facts are allowed.

The hurricane Katrina was indeed a sad event, and I sympathize. However, part of the casualty is also due to the fact that people live too close to the marshes. I hope people are more careful now, and have moved to higher ground. I have no trust in government either, so let people help others and themselves.

The Philippines is like a mini makeshift America, and we got hit by typhoons at least once a month. And while typhoon Frank hit, the President was busy in a trip to the States, perhaps meeting with your very own President George Bush. Plus a lot of other politicians went to watch Pacquiao's boxing match. So I am NOT shocked. This is same old, same old.

In earlier days, "Anything but piano" had great political debates.  Let's get one going here and forget this "spa" crap and "forum family" crap.

Let's talk about a World Order that is slipping away before our very eyes.  Let's be witnesses to this drama, if nothing else.

I shall not comment about that one.

World Order slipping away? Seems more like World Chaos about to erupt. What you call "stupidity" is so common, it IS the "world order" of things.

Oh well, it depends on you to see if the glass is half empty or half full.

[general disarray]

I know.  The Philippines suffers much more than America does.  I have ex-pat friends from your country who left your corrupt state to find stability in this one.  We are all finding that the world is one big cesspool.

And, yes, New Orleans is marshy terrain, but for decades it endured -- before levies, dams and canals were constructed to accommodate the oil refinery trade that moved in.  You shouldn't blame the victims for this disaster, you know.

Nevertheless, thank you for participating in this thread.

[general disarray]

To db05:  Your admonition that I am not allowed to post "political" content is offensive to me, considering the fact that you have no problem airing your very personal emotional problems here regarding your "depression," which you expound upon but fundamentally deny.

I have been kind enough to offer you emotional support on this issue (your "depression") and I don't appreciate you attempting to censor my political comments, as an American, regarding America.

I am particularly offended by your implication that I have attacked you or anyone else here. 

[db05]

I know.  The Philippines suffers much more than America does.  I have ex-pat friends from your country who left your corrupt state to find stability in this one.  We are all finding that the world is one big cesspool.

And, yes, New Orleans is marshy terrain, but for decades it endured -- before levies, dams and canals were constructed to accommodate the oil refinery trade that moved in.  You shouldn't blame the victims for this disaster, you know.

Nevertheless, thank you for participating in this thread.

I look back at what I wrote and I am saddened. You seem cynical, and worse, I responded. Yes, I've heard about the levies (forgot what they were called though  ), and in fact I was in the States last year. I have met none but nice people there.

You can't really blame anyone. Even the global warming, how would we have known?

It saddens me to see you like that. I mean, lighten up. I'm not optimistic either. I've always had things not going the way I expect, and thus learned to expect the worst. And when it doesn't happen, I am glad. But recently, I've realized that thinking whether the glass is half full or empty is just barking up the wrong tree.

Break the glass.

[db05]

To db05:  Your admonition that I am not allowed to post "political" content is offensive to me, considering the fact that you have no problem airing your very personal emotional problems here regarding your "depression," which you expound upon but fundamentally deny.

I have been kind enough to offer you emotional support on this issue (your "depression") and I don't appreciate you attempting to censor my political comments, as an American, regarding America.

I am particularly offended by your implication that I have attacked you or anyone else here. 

Sorry about that. I see you as a friend, and am not trying to censor you. Just surprised that this came up. So it is allowed. Okay.

Am not implying that at all. You just think I am. Read what I said earlier.

I regard you as a friend, and I don't want you to go on a downward spiral like I did in university three years ago. Ever since I've been "depressed", but I fight it.

[general disarray]

Sorry about that. I see you as a friend, and am not trying to censor you. Just surprised that this came up. So it is allowed. Okay.

Am not implying that at all. You just think I am. Read what I said earlier.

I regard you as a friend, and I don't want you to go on a downward spiral like I did in university three years ago. Ever since I've been "depressed", but I fight it.

I don't go on "downward spirals:" I just get pissed, express myself and move on.

Let's move on.  And be friends.  Okay?

Over and out.

[db05]

I don't go on "downward spirals:" I just get pissed, express myself and move on.

Let's move on.  And be friends.  Okay?

Over and out.

I think it's better to skip the getting pissed part.

You scared me. One moment, you're helping me out, and then this? Looks like a classic db mood swing. Sure you'll be fine?

Sure. Friends.

[lau]

In earlier days, "Anything but piano" had great political debates.  Let's get one going here and forget this "spa" crap and "forum family" crap.  

well, slap my upper neck and call me slyzter..i think we should get rid of politcs and start more family forum threads.

[rc]

I'm not often in the mood for political debate.  Every once in a while it can be fun, for sport, but I'm not sure how much is actually learned.  Usually they degrade to something completely worthless, like when each side refuses to accept anything from the other and starts spending time on things like discrediting the others sources.  I've tried following such debates, and all it's lead me to was a dead end: no sources are credible, I don't know enough on such a topic to filter and am not sure anybody really does.  Besides that it often doesn't concern me at all...  I don't think elections in another country needs SO much media coverage here.

So, more and more I find myself simply watching the drama unfold, and not taking it so seriously.  Like when there was a freak flood on Canada Day, I wish I would have seen it, it would be so cool to watch the manholes pop off and the streets look like rivers!  If it's gonna flood I'd at least like to enjoy the scene.

This is an extraordinary time to be alive if you are aware of history.  You have already seen the USA's slip from world leader to second tier nation in just 50 years.  $56 trilllion in debt, a dollar that is crashing in value, home foreclosures, credit industry crashes and bank failures.  And all of this in a country where much more is imported than exported and the average citizen has no savings and nothing but massive credit debt.

The debt-society stumps me.  How could so many people spend so much money that they don't have, and not have something break somewhere?  How will such a debt be worked down, by whom? 

Even on the personal level, I don't know how someone could find it so acceptable to live in the hole.  It's always on luxury items.  I worked with a guy who was still paying for a $4000 TV that got reposessed, another had a shiny new truck and nice clothes but no food in the fridge and was getting daily calls from the credit companies.  A lot of this is from the desire to seem well off, or compete with the neighbours.  Now I don't even see the shiny car and newly furnished home as such a status symbol anyways - I wonder "it's a nice car, but will he be declaring bankruptcy within the year?". 

Marketing also encourages this depravity, so far as I see it the purpose of marketing is to create a false demand for something.  A materialistic approach to values, linking some value to an inanimate object.  I have to pick on cars again, because their commercials are the most annoyingly transparent, did anyone see the one where a guy and the salesman hop in the car and immediately have bigger muscles?

Such a shallow, materialistic attitude...  I was at a party on Fri and somehow the number $30,000 came up for something and a little kid said "I could live on that forever!" , then a lady starts talking about how much more than that she makes/year, how much money her son makes, how much she will pay for her daughters education...  All this bragging to a girl who's maybe 11 years old, I thought was a little odd

[Petter]

Can´t you just blow up the entire central mountain time zone? That would save you alot of trouble, of course you would lose a lot of nice nature but it would be worth it, I promise!

[cmg]

I think it's better to skip the getting pissed part.

You scared me. One moment, you're helping me out, and then this? Looks like a classic db mood swing. Sure you'll be fine?

Sure. Friends.

Give the general a break.  He's been supportive and helpful to you.  Are you so naive as to assume that people don't "get pissed?"

Anger is biologically based.  It's unavoidable for everyone.  Even Christ got pissed.  What makes us civilized is how we deal with it.  If you think it's a problem to be "pissed," then that's precisely why you struggle with depression.  Depression, in one classic definition, is "anger turned inwards."
 

[db05]

Give the general a break.  He's been supportive and helpful to you.  Are you so naive as to assume that people don't "get pissed?"

Anger is biologically based.  It's unavoidable for everyone.  Even Christ got pissed.  What makes us civilized is how we deal with it.  If you think it's a problem to be "pissed," then that's precisely why you struggle with depression.  Depression, in one classic definition, is "anger turned inwards."
 

Interesting to note that.

I find that I can only be angry at myself, for I decided to be in control of my life. Hence, I see no point in getting pissed with outside things for they are all a reflection of my limitation. Yes, it's a heavy burden. But when things go well, they do sometimes, I am 10x happier that I decided this.

I was only afraid the general would think all is lost and turn and point the gun at himself. No need to worry. It is a very good thing that most people do not feel things as I do.

[moscheles001]

db05: my job is being outsourced to the Philippines.

General_Disarray: I know exactly how you feel.

I don't know if there is a place where things are better (resists the urge to sing "Somewhere Over the Rainbow"), but I find being a thinking person in America to be quite depressing. I worry about the futures of my two young children.

[shortyshort]

I just get pissed.

In England that means getting very drunk. 

That's what I do. 

[thalbergmad]

That's what I do. 

We noticed old boy.

Thal

[zheer]

Marketing also encourages this depravity, so far as I see it the purpose of marketing is to create a false demand for something.  A materialistic approach to values, linking some value to an inanimate object.  I have to pick on cars again, because their commercials are the most annoyingly transparent, did anyone see the one where a guy and the salesman hop in the car and immediately have bigger muscles?

Such a shallow, materialistic attitude...  I was at a party on Fri and somehow the number $30,000 came up for something and a little kid said "I could live on that forever!" , then a lady starts talking about how much more than that she makes/year, how much money her son makes, how much she will pay for her daughters education...  All this bragging to a girl who's maybe 11 years old, I thought was a little odd

  I've studied marketing a little, must see

   

[rc]

Thanks for that interesting link Zheer, I will have to scope the rest of the videos.  Has anything good come of marketing?

I get a kick out of the psychoanalysis "...Then women would smoke, because they would have their own penises"

And it worked!  That Bernays guy was brilliant, though immoral, or at least shortsighted (did he ever wonder what this would do to society over time?).  In one of the responses someone wrote "it's about exploiting it as much as you can for your own needs, because at the end of the day, we're all selfish and we all fight for OURSELVES... " and I believe that this sort of immorality is also shortsighted.  If we think large enough, we see how other peoples condition effects ourselves and our children, and thinking that way is where selflessness and selfishness come to mean the same thing.

I come to a problem with this sort of shepherding of people.  On one hand, I see all the time how people act like sheep in various ways, I wouldn't be surprised to find there are things I'm 'sheepish' about, and by that thought there ought to be good leaders making the decisions...  On the other hand, I believe that people should have freedom, whether they use it to screw up or shape up comes down to the individual.

[etcetra]

I lived in America not long ago,  I knew familes who were paying $5000 a month for a mortage.. and they are making less than $100,000 a year.. they are your normal middle-class, and I kept on thinking "what in the world are these people thinking, did they ever think about how tough it would be to make that mortage if something goes bad?"   I saw a lot of that kind of oppertunist wishful thinking, and it scared me. 

Its funny that Mccain is mentioned here.. he is suddenly gaining a momentum because of her VP pick.. Europeans are shaking their heads about Sarah Palin, they were expecting the next president to rebuild the ties between US and Europe, someone like Palin will probably alienate US from the rest of the world even more.  And let's not forget that George W Bush still hold about 30% approval rating.. that's almost 1 in 3 Americans who STILL thinks that Bush is doing the right thing for the country.

I love America for a lot of things.. for jazz, for the ideas of their founding fathers..for the culture.. I met so many brilliant people there, but majority of what i saw outside of that are the crap I mentioned above.. and it scares me.. the mentality, some people there still argue about "intellegent design" (which has absolutely no basis in the scientific method), and think Bush is doing Gods work when US invaded Iraq.

I wish the America I once saw is still there, but it's not.. I don't know what it would take for things to change.. the housing market crisis, AIG, the War in Iraq, all these problems, I think the problem was already there, but Americans are at a point where they are forced to do a reality check.. just like the families I know who has to forfeit their houses right now..they can no longer live in that wishful-thinking and face the music, and it doesn't look very pretty at alal.

[zheer]

Thanks for that interesting link Zheer, I will have to scope the rest of the videos.  Has anything good come of marketing?

  Your welcome, obviously some of the stuff is not true, but we all know that most of the time we purchase and desire things that we simply don't need. Mass manipulation through psycological means is a little alarming don't you think.

[zheer]

Its funny that Mccain is mentioned here.. he is suddenly gaining a momentum because of her VP pick.. Europeans are shaking their heads about Sarah Palin, they were expecting the next president to rebuild the ties between US and Europe, someone like Palin will probably alienate US from the rest of the world even more.  And let's not forget that George W Bush still hold about 30% approval rating.. that's almost 1 in 3 Americans who STILL thinks that Bush is doing the right thing for the country.

   Is that it 30% approval rating. I find that the US ( as far as I know ) chose not to think long term, it's usually about gaining mass approval at what ever cost.
  I'm stating to see where the likes of George W Bush and EU politicians are coming from, I just feel as I'm sure many other people do so too, that they are simply going about it the wrong way. I remeber when Blair publicly expressed his opinion of the new kind of muslim preachers and it similarity with Nazi-ism ( so true ). I've also arrived at that conclusion, but I don't doubt that forign policy war on Iraq ect ect is going to make things a lot worse for everyone.

[lisztisforkids]

This election really scares me, theres so much on the line. Believe it or now there was actually a time when I could have voted for McCain. Palin changed that. The mere idea that that woman could be president scares the living hell out of me....

[ramseytheii]

It's a good question, "How bad is it in America?"  The fact is, by the standards set in our Constitution and the way that we have been used to living, it's pretty bad.  The current administration in particular is operating from an ideology that doesn't include Constitutional limits in its scope, and the means always justify the ends.

But that being said, Thomas Paine said that glory of America and in its Revolution was that the people would always have the power, actually the right, to change the government if they so desired.  If they even wish for a monarchy, he said that would be a compact between the people and the family to whom they wished to grant hereditary rule.  Things will be truly bad in America, only on that day when we can no longer choose our leaders.

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

   Is that it 30% approval rating. I find that the US ( as far as I know ) chose not to think long term, it's usually about gaining mass approval at what ever cost.
  I'm stating to see where the likes of George W Bush and EU politicians are coming from, I just feel as I'm sure many other people do so too, that they are simply going about it the wrong way. I remeber when Blair publicly expressed his opinion of the new kind of muslim preachers and it similarity with Nazi-ism ( so true ). I've also arrived at that conclusion, but I don't doubt that forign policy war on Iraq ect ect is going to make things a lot worse for everyone.

Although I agree with your points, keep in mind that the 30% rating actually does reflect long-term.  It reflects people's view of his entire 8 years in office; and as far as the future long-term is concerned, 80% + of Americans believe the country is headed in the wrong direction, a direction undoubtedly that the Bush so-called neo-conservatives (an unholy alliance between Jewish nationalists and so-called Zionist Christians, who view giving Israel military strength as a way to hasten the apocalypse, trigger the second coming, and eventually destroy all the Jews) put us on.

When the people survey his policies both foreign and domestic, they see only trouble ahead.  The 30% matters politically, because on his second election he said that his victory meant the people approved of his policies (which obviously they don't), and it matters historically.

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

I lived in America not long ago,  I knew familes who were paying $5000 a month for a mortage.. and they are making less than $100,000 a year.. they are your normal middle-class, and I kept on thinking "what in the world are these people thinking, did they ever think about how tough it would be to make that mortage if something goes bad?"   I saw a lot of that kind of oppertunist wishful thinking, and it scared me. 

Its funny that Mccain is mentioned here.. he is suddenly gaining a momentum because of her VP pick.. Europeans are shaking their heads about Sarah Palin, they were expecting the next president to rebuild the ties between US and Europe, someone like Palin will probably alienate US from the rest of the world even more.  And let's not forget that George W Bush still hold about 30% approval rating.. that's almost 1 in 3 Americans who STILL thinks that Bush is doing the right thing for the country.

I love America for a lot of things.. for jazz, for the ideas of their founding fathers..for the culture.. I met so many brilliant people there, but majority of what i saw outside of that are the crap I mentioned above.. and it scares me.. the mentality, some people there still argue about "intellegent design" (which has absolutely no basis in the scientific method), and think Bush is doing Gods work when US invaded Iraq.

I wish the America I once saw is still there, but it's not.. I don't know what it would take for things to change.. the housing market crisis, AIG, the War in Iraq, all these problems, I think the problem was already there, but Americans are at a point where they are forced to do a reality check.. just like the families I know who has to forfeit their houses right now..they can no longer live in that wishful-thinking and face the music, and it doesn't look very pretty at alal.

That's an interesting perspective.  The truth of the matter is, though, the America of religious fundamentalism and the idea that God wants Americans to win above all, is not a new idea.  It's only had a resurgence in the past twenty years or so.  America is characterized especially by huge waves of religious revival that are always tied to political maneuvers.  What makes the current religious revival so frightening, is the vast military power the country has with its nuclear arsenal.  The thought of a Pentecostalist Zionist speaking-in-tongues nut with her perfectly manicured red nails on the red button, should frighten every rational person in this world.  However in America, politics is working now such that if you call things what they are, like I just did, you get half the country to hate you and they elect the most unqualified people out of spite for the other half.

In some ways the religious situation is the tragedy of the Great Experiment.  Thomas Jefferson believed that, based on the ideals that founded the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and Virginia Statutes on Religious Freedom, the people would flock to the newly founded Unitarianism (not quite the same as Unitarian Universalist which is much older), and actually made a statement to the effect that by the end of the 18th century, he believed the whole country would be Unitarian.

Well it turns out destiny wasn't so kind to his Unitarian ideal (Christians are considered Trinitarians), and the real religion that sparked fervor in America would eventually be Mormonism (called by Tolstoy, "that peculiar American religion.") 

As all secretive groups go, Mormons have provoked a lot of suspicion and hatred, but compared to the so-called Zionist Christians, who want to arm Israel in order to ultimately destroy the Jews, they are quite safe and unthreatening.

Walter Ramsey

[michel dvorsky]

In response to Ramsey:

There is indeed a 'pseudo'-Zionist element of the Christian Right that supports Israel because they believe that Jews ought to be the ones living there to expediate the second coming of Jesus.  Rational people naturally ought to be suspicious of those who believe such obscene, superstitious rubbish.

That being said, the strategic importance of good relations with Israel is almost universally acknowledged across the entire American political spectrum (including the Left), and this support is justifiable without appealing to religious superstition. 

McCain has many weaknesses, but nobody can make the case that he's a religious nut; at worst, he is befriending this element of his party out of political expediency.  Nothing more.

[michel dvorsky]

I'll tell you how bad it is.  The Mother Hurricane of all Hurricanes is pushing towards New Orleans and other Gulfport cities as I write this.  And, perversely, it's happening on the anniversary of the EARLIER Mother Storm of all Storms, Katrina, which all but destroyed New Orleans three years ago. And that part of America, where oil is refined and Afro-Americans are suppressed, is under a siege that only Nature can deliver.

You sound like one of those chaps who stands, dirty, unshaven, disheveled, with a cardboard sign reading "the end of the world is coming!"

And the irony of ironies is that the Republican National Convention, where John McCain -- the heir to George Bush's eight years of fascist policies, the infamous president of the current administration that let hundreds die in New Orleans after the last hurricane in New Orleans -- will be nominated, during this same time frame, in Velveeta-land Minnesota as the Republicans' choice for president.  Ironic, is it not?

How is anything that you mentioned "ironic"?  I think you need to look up the word.

Shocking, isn't it?  But it's a fact, despite the charisma of Barack Obama and the historic precedence, racially speaking, of his nomination. 

This is a race for presidency of the United States; not a feel good referendum on demographics. President of the US is actually not a trivial job.

Obama deserves the honor, despite his  relative lack of experience.  But, it will take a miracle to elect him.

Wow, you are almost making the case that his race and charisma entitles him to the job...which is a reasonably ignorant statement that borders on racism.

Racism and hatred of all those who are Muslim (and, therefore "terrorists") is the core of American belief systems.  And McCain is a hater.  He hates the Infidel.  He hates the non-Christian.    He urges a war-like stance and stupid Americans love that.  But not necessarily in NYC.  Or LA.  Or Chicago.  But everywhere else.  America is a nation so stupid that it does not know that it has embraced fascism and incorporated it into its social fabric.

McCain (rightly) hates the cult whose members behead female aid workers, strap bombs to Down's syndrome children to be detonated on a bus full of children, and crash planes into office skyscrapers.  The rest of what you say McCain hates is all ridiculous fantasizing on your part.

[ramseytheii]

In response to Ramsey:

There is indeed a 'pseudo'-Zionist element of the Christian Right that supports Israel because they believe that Jews ought to be the ones living there to expediate the second coming of Jesus.  Rational people naturally ought to be suspicious of those who believe such obscene, superstitious rubbish.

That being said, the strategic importance of good relations with Israel is almost universally acknowledged across the entire American political spectrum (including the Left), and this support is justifiable without appealing to religious superstition. 

McCain has many weaknesses, but nobody can make the case that he's a religious nut; at worst, he is befriending this element of his party out of political expediency.  Nothing more.

You make good points!  McCain is def. not a religious nut; in my opinion, had he won the nomination in 2000, he could have had the strength at his younger age to reform the party to prevent the religious nuts from having so much power.  Now, after 8 years of handouts and political victories, he doesn't have the leverage.  He needs them.

Rational people ought to be suspicious of the Christian Zionists (though I still think you state their case too mildly; the Jews residing in the Holy Land is not enough to trigger the Second Coming- according to their belief systems, an apocalyptic war is necessary, and they already know the result.  The Christians will be transported to Heaven, the anti-Christ will be a Jew, and those remaining on earth will burn).  I am suspicious of them.  But if you express suspicion for them in a political context, you are likely to incur a strong backlash.  Over the past 8 years, the religious fanatics have been depicted as mainstream, although their views have not compromised.

Whether or not there is non-religious justification for defending Israel, to place the power and responsibility in the hands of Christian Zionists is insane.  That is why I called it an unholy alliance.

Walter Ramsey

[etcetra]

ramseytheii

sorry for the late response.  It's true that there is a fundamental 'religiousness" in the hearts of the  American mind.  It's also true that the public  is usually misguided and irrational.  The concept of manifest destiny has been around for a long time, and for some reason, a good portion of American is still drawn to that idea.  I remember when I read Bush's second inauguration speech,  it was just full of rhetoric about "promoting peace" to the entire world, I wonder how many people stopped to think whether what he was saying is coherent or rational. 

I am puzzled about the so-called "Zionist Christians" in America...I hear things about how America is a nation of God and how our founding fathers were devout christian.  Little do they know George washington edited and created his own version of the bible.   it's probably one of those things the founding fathers never intended to happen. And I am still confused about this preoccupation with Israel, it's not something people talk about, but it's there.


I am not an expert on neo-con philosophy, but I think the reason we were so preoccupied with the Iraq is because the neo-cons wanted to set an outpost like America did with Japan and Germany.  It has a huge potential for American business, and a strong influence there can affect their ability to control oil.. Unfortunately that kind of thinking seems dated, and it has proven to be a huge failure.

[rc]

I don't know much about it, but while working I heard part of a podcast about political theology that you fellows might be interested in:

https://podcast.cbc.ca/mp3/ideas_20080908_6820.mp3

"The Stillborn God

Religious passions are stirring up politics around the globe. The West has learned to separate religion from politics. But Islam has another political theology—one that places God at the center. Historian Mark Lilla surveys this intellectual landscape."

(according to the site, they only archive podcasts for a couple weeks, so the link might not work in a month)

[0range]

Now, I'm about as unpolitical as they come... to me, all politicians are hypocritical, self-serving cowards (Obama is no exception, sorry fanboys). Some of them, though, are just plain stupid as well, and McCain falls under this particularly heinous category.

This has been apparent to me for a long while, just from a casual look. And if you think that this is wrong, probably, it just means you're an idiot too. I mean, seriously, even the Wall Street journal thinks McCain is a buffoon. When you're a Republican, and this most right-wing institution badmouths you, and essentially says that you don't understand finance, you know you're doing something terribly wrong.

[ramseytheii]

ramseytheii

sorry for the late response.  It's true that there is a fundamental 'religiousness" in the hearts of the  American mind.  It's also true that the public  is usually misguided and irrational.  The concept of manifest destiny has been around for a long time, and for some reason, a good portion of American is still drawn to that idea.  I remember when I read Bush's second inauguration speech,  it was just full of rhetoric about "promoting peace" to the entire world, I wonder how many people stopped to think whether what he was saying is coherent or rational. 

I am puzzled about the so-called "Zionist Christians" in America...I hear things about how America is a nation of God and how our founding fathers were devout christian.  Little do they know George washington edited and created his own version of the bible.   it's probably one of those things the founding fathers never intended to happen. And I am still confused about this preoccupation with Israel, it's not something people talk about, but it's there.


I am not an expert on neo-con philosophy, but I think the reason we were so preoccupied with the Iraq is because the neo-cons wanted to set an outpost like America did with Japan and Germany.  It has a huge potential for American business, and a strong influence there can affect their ability to control oil.. Unfortunately that kind of thinking seems dated, and it has proven to be a huge failure.

Of course you're right with the last paragraph!  There is long-term strategic (secular) planning in the Iraq business.  But there is also a crazy religious element, which is undeniable, since so many of the churches which banded together for Bush, are Christian Zionist churches. 

About your second paragraph, it was actually Thomas Jefferson who took a razor-blade to the Bible, and produced one without any miracles, virgin births, or resurrections.  The Founding Fathers were unitarians, a small U to signify they weren't necessarily belonging to the church we know as Unitarian, but only to show their philosophy: they believed in one god, not three.  Their view was expressed by Thomas Paine, who believed that God could be found by studying the science of the Earth, since he was the Creator.

Probably the Founding Fathers underestimated the resolve of the Puritans, and other religious groups, who came to America to establish a land that followed their particular moral bearings.  There's always a tension here, that surfaces every once in a while in huge religious revivals.

Walter Ramsey

[etcetra]

ramseytheii,

Yea I realized it was thomas jefferson while I was taking a walk today.. doh!!

US made a horrible mistake in Iraq and Afghnaistan.. Friend of mine told me  that US was applying the kind of strategy used in the Cold War but the problem is that we don't live in that kind of world anymore.. I wonder whether it actually triggered Russia to act more aggressively, as it did recently in Georga and etc. 

I find it very puzzling that the Christianity and George Bush has somehow became associated with Republicanism.. it seems like what people mean by Republican has very little to do with what Jefferson called "republican".. Both Bush and Christians want a stronger federal government..how did the republicans became so out of touch with their roots?

It also baffles me how people can think they are safer now they were because of the war on terroism.. if anything people should be worried more.. US has set a quite a precedent with  Guantanamo Bay.. many  People  thinks that the ends justifies the means.. but what they fail to see is that US has set a precedent in which other countries can now create an excuse to violate human rights of American citizens.. what's preventing Russian or Chinese to detain Americans for the same reasons Americans detained foregin terrorists?

I can name a thousands things like this.. whether its the war on terrorism or the housing market crisis, I see a lot of irrationality in America right now.. I have the utmost respect for the founding fathers of America for their intellegence and their reason, its sad to see so little of that now days.

[rc]

  Your welcome, obviously some of the stuff is not true, but we all know that most of the time we purchase and desire things that we simply don't need. Mass manipulation through psycological means is a little alarming don't you think.

Well, I guess it's been happening my whole life so I feel used to it.

With election campaigns going on here now, I'm starting to get annoyed with all the partisanship.  The point in that video was how people can be manipulated through their emotions seems relevant to this.  When I'm talking to a friend who gets all worked up and emotional about this or that party, but has almost no facts to support his bias (murky facts, or just suspicions), I think "this person has been fed some pre-digested information".  If he had come to his own conclusions, he would have some reasons behind his opinions.  When it seems to be based entirely on emotional appeal, I tune out.  Going around steaming off opinions without reasons is a waste of steam.

I'd read some study that said something like 20% of the objectors during the Vietnam war had actually gone through all the reasoning behind their stance, the rest were just kinda going along... But of course accusing people of not thinking for themselves is worse than useless.  The very least I can do is try to filter facts from partisanship and do some of my own research if I can.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having a bias, but I think people ought to have some reasons to back it up - put some of their emotional biases to a little testing.  Since the emotions are so easily manipulated, it's good to check things out.  I wouldn't want to be making decisions based on a warped piece of info (or scaremongering).

[mattgreenecomposer]

Why do people post these hate Bush hate America threads? 
People who live outside (and in many cases inside) the USA automatically assume everything is George Bush's fault.  It's laughable.  Hurricane-GWB's fault, Terrorism-GWB's fault, -Economy GWB's fault.  Our system of government is not a monarchy in case you didn't know.  The President has to get approval from congress (which by the way has a much lower approval rating than Bush himself.)  Not to mention Bush hasn't vetoed one bill since he's been in office.  You've got a problem with the way things are going ...write your congressman.  With that said- I am not a Bush supporter at all and never voted for him. This time around I voted for Ron Paul for one primary reason-the value of our currency.  STOP PRINTING MONEY!
You think Obama is better than McCain or vice versa your clueless.  It's NOT gonna make one bit of difference.
Capitalism succeeds Socialism doesn't -period. 

[mephisto]

McCain (rightly) hates the cult whose members behead female aid workers, strap bombs to Down's syndrome children to be detonated on a bus full of children, and crash planes into office skyscrapers. 

But at the same time he support the destruction of the houses of innocent people, destruction of several houndred villages, ethnic cleansing, imprisonment of underaged people without trial, colonising other peoples land by giving them to crazy religious fanatics, uprooting of farmers trees, willfull killing of civilians etc. Great!

[michel dvorsky]

But at the same time he support the destruction of the houses of innocent people, destruction of several houndred villages, ethnic cleansing, imprisonment of underaged people without trial, colonising other peoples land by giving them to crazy religious fanatics, uprooting of farmers trees, willfull killing of civilians etc. Great!

Neither McCain nor the mainstream of US political establishment supports the indiscriminate and intentional murder of civilians and noncombatants.

Most Israelis are willing to live alongside an independent Palestine, and indeed many ordinary Palestinians are willing to accept the existence of the state of Israel.  It is  the Palestinian leadership (namely Hamas) that has sacrificed the peace of the region by their refusal to compromise by recognizing the legitimacy of the Israeli state.  If you go to Gaza, you would likely be astonished to learn that most non-extremist Gazans are more infuriated by their own leadership than by the Israeli state. 

[etcetra]

"Capitalism succeeds Socialism doesn't -period."

that makes a lot of sense considering how unregulated capitalism is causing a lot of problem with the housing market and economy in general right now.  I wonder what the economy would look like if the government decided to nothing about the economic crisis.  Whether its capitalism or socialism it only works perfectly on paper, pure capitalism doesn't work.

I don't think its any surprise that Bush is taking blame for everything that has happening with the economy, the war in Iraq..  all these things happend under his watch.  It would have been the same if someone else was the president right now.

michael drovsky,
I wouldn't be surprised if what you say is true.. it's so easy to be mis-informed about what's going on and its strange how so much of our views are based on mis-conceptions.

[mephisto]

Most Israelis are willing to live alongside an independent Palestine,  

ًWich statistics are you using for this statement?

Asher Arian's Israeli Public Opinion on National Security 2003 ( Jaffe Center for Strategic Studies, Tel Aviv), reported these findings on Israelis' support for the Clinton proposal:


Establishment of a Palestinian state on 95% of the West Bank and Gaza (%)

2001 43 %
2002 40 %
2003 42 %

Arian presents in the 2003 survey these findings for Israeli's support for expelling the Palestinians from the Occupied Territories, expelling Palestinian Citizens of Israel, and "encouraging " Palestinian citizens of Israel to leave:

From the Occupied Territories: 2001 No Data, 2002 46%, 2003 46 %.
Palestinian citizens of Israel: 2001 No Data, 2002 31, 2003 33 %
"Encouraging" Palestinian citizens of Israel to leave: 2001 50 %, 2002 53%, 2003  57 %

It is  the Palestinian leadership (namely Hamas) that has sacrificed the peace of the region by their refusal to compromise by recognizing the legitimacy of the Israeli state.  If you go to Gaza, you would likely be astonished to learn that most non-extremist Gazans are more infuriated by their own leadership than by the Israeli state. 

This hypothesis can easily be checked. In 2002 all of the countries of the Arab league supported basicly what Un resolution 242 ( Israel has officially accepted this resolution) has said ( Palestinian state in the Occupied territories, dissmantling of the settlements, etc AND full recognition of Israel and normal trade, wich of course is more that 242 ever asked for). Israel flatly rejected this proposal (it was outrages to them). At that time Hamas was NOT in office. The more moderate Fatah was. Fatah accepted it. Israel did not.

It was not before 2006 that Hamas came to power.  So Hamas is certainly not to be blamed for there not being peace in Israel and Palestine.
Your argument has no factual basis.

It is obvious to anyone who actually reads about this conflict that it is Israel crucially backed by the US that is the main reason there is no peace.

Add to this that every year there is a vote in the UN about a resolution about the Israel-Palestine conflict. Every year the vote is the same. All the world support this resolution exept Israel, USA and a few islands in the pacific ocean (all of this is available on the UN's official web page).

And please have you ever been to Gaza? I don't think you could be able to tell me anything about the Arab-Israeli conflict that would surprise me, exept if it was a lie. Hamas won a democratic election. You may not like it but it is true.

[mattgreenecomposer]

"that makes a lot of sense considering how unregulated capitalism is causing a lot of problem with the housing market and economy in general right now.  I wonder what the economy would look like if the government decided to nothing about the economic crisis.  Whether its capitalism or socialism it only works perfectly on paper, pure capitalism doesn't work."

I'm sorry your misinformed: Do some research.
Just so you know my mother has been doing real estate loans for 33 years. And I am 31 now.  We are in the housing crisis BECAUSE OF GOVERNMENT interference with the free market.  Companies were forced to give loans by congress to people who they knew couldn't afford them BY LAW.  This really increased in the late 1990's.  Now the companies are being blamed.  (If you don't want to take my word for it google Bill Clinton Fair housing act or HUD etc.) This is the real reason why we are in the housing crisis today.
As far as government interference with capitalism goes it never helps.  Its putting a band aid on top of another band aid.  Bailing large corporations out with tax payer money is never a good thing.   In the long run it only hurts us.

[ramseytheii]

Why do people post these hate Bush hate America threads? 
People who live outside (and in many cases inside) the USA automatically assume everything is George Bush's fault.  It's laughable.  Hurricane-GWB's fault, Terrorism-GWB's fault, -Economy GWB's fault.  Our system of government is not a monarchy in case you didn't know.  The President has to get approval from congress (which by the way has a much lower approval rating than Bush himself.)  Not to mention Bush hasn't vetoed one bill since he's been in office.  You've got a problem with the way things are going ...write your congressman.  With that said- I am not a Bush supporter at all and never voted for him. This time around I voted for Ron Paul for one primary reason-the value of our currency.  STOP PRINTING MONEY!
You think Obama is better than McCain or vice versa your clueless.  It's NOT gonna make one bit of difference.
Capitalism succeeds Socialism doesn't -period. 

If you don't know why a significant number of Americans despise Bush and his policies, you haven't been paying attention.  And in the most friendly way, it seems from your post that you haven't! 

Hurricanes - nobody blamed hurricanes on Bush.  In fact, it was the Republican Christian fundamentalists that prayed for torrential rain on the day of Obama's acceptance speech (true story), but look whose convention got the hurricane.  What they blame on Bush is his deliberately callous response to the destruction of an American city; a response that many believe comes from the observation that nobody there was inclined to vote Republican.  One immediately notices that Republican areas hit by hurricanes, have received significant more governmental support.  Bush is definitely to blame for this, because he didn't need Congress approval to do anything.  He just had to do it, he failed, people suffered, the city is still a disaster zone, and he and his party are paying the price for that now.

Terrorism - you haven't heard of a memo, called "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in the United States"?

Economy - you're right, it isn't Bush's fault alone.  It's the fault of the whole Ayn Randist philosophy, especially her philosophy as it is mixed with Christian fundmentalism and apocalyptic Zionism.  Reading her letters the other day, I was struck by her prescience in a letter to Barry Goldwater in the late 60's.  She warned him not to let the fiscal movement be taken over by Christians (she was an atheist), because it would damage the integrity of the principles.  Well perhaps it turns out she was right.

Nobody can say with certainty, that one thing alone is causing the financial collapse in the US, not even Fair Housing bills.  But everyone agrees without exception, that the reason the companies overstretched themselves is consistent de-regulation, (even Republicans agree to this) and the hopeful idea that the "invisible hand" of the market will balance itself out.

Walter Ramsey

[michel dvorsky]

Hurricanes - nobody blamed hurricanes on Bush.  In fact, it was the Republican Christian fundamentalists that prayed for torrential rain on the day of Obama's acceptance speech (true story), but look whose convention got the hurricane.  What they blame on Bush is his deliberately callous response to the destruction of an American city; a response that many believe comes from the observation that nobody there was inclined to vote Republican.  One immediately notices that Republican areas hit by hurricanes, have received significant more governmental support.  Bush is definitely to blame for this, because he didn't need Congress approval to do anything.  He just had to do it, he failed, people suffered, the city is still a disaster zone, and he and his party are paying the price for that now.

Well come on. The Hurricane-prone region of the United States is a Republican area of the country so naturally Texas -- not Vermont -- is more likely to receive governmental support for hurricanes and floods. 

I think it was Napoleon who said "never ascribe to malice what can more adequately be explained by incompetence". 

Terrorism - you haven't heard of a memo, called "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in the United States"?

I think most people from both parties agree that both Clinton and Bush had not prepared adequately for the attacks.  Clinton is criticised nowadays for doing far too little in response to the attacks on the African Embassies, and the USS Cole.  At the time he received pressure for doing too much.

9/11 was very much a wake-up call.

Economy - you're right, it isn't Bush's fault alone.  It's the fault of the whole Ayn Randist philosophy, especially her philosophy as it is mixed with Christian fundmentalism and apocalyptic Zionism.  Reading her letters the other day, I was struck by her prescience in a letter to Barry Goldwater in the late 60's.  She warned him not to let the fiscal movement be taken over by Christians (she was an atheist), because it would damage the integrity of the principles.  Well perhaps it turns out she was right.

The fiscal movement hasn't been taken over by "Christians". I don't really know what you're trying to say here.

Nobody can say with certainty, that one thing alone is causing the financial collapse in the US, not even Fair Housing bills.  But everyone agrees without exception, that the reason the companies overstretched themselves is consistent de-regulation, (even Republicans agree to this) and the hopeful idea that the "invisible hand" of the market will balance itself out.

Walter Ramsey

Transparency and free flow of information are necessary for the proper functioning of markets.  It's clear that irresponsible practices and incomplete information lead to the present mess and that improved standards can seek to remedy these problems....but the notion that pursuit of individual self interest leads to benefits for the whole of society is just as true today as it was when Smith wrote it in 1776.

[mattgreenecomposer]

In reponse to Ramseytheii:

Hurricanes: Dont disagree with you there.  My argument is strictly on economic principals ...however once again congress has to approve not just Bush, so blaming Bush for this when Mayor Nagan is hiding in a hotel and then gets RE-ELECTED by his own city makes me laugh. "you know how you make chocolate..."
 lol
The Christian movment:  Dont know what your trying to argue here or why you hate Christians for some reason but whatever...your entitled to your opinion (respectively.) Again I'm talking strictly economics.

Terrorism-Where did that come from?  I'm not discussing terrorism...

Ayn Rand-completly disagree for reasons too long in this thread.  Obviously you've misread Atlas Shrugged.  If your smarter than Adam Smith..lol!   Im a better composer than Bach.

Capitalism succeeds, name me one socialist country that has worked in the past...answer 0.

"But everyone agrees without exception, that the reason the companies overstretched themselves is consistent de-regulation, (even Republicans agree to this) and the hopeful idea that the "invisible hand" of the market will balance itself out."

Who is "everyone?" ...I dont agree.  I don't know anyone who agrees with this.  BTW I am not a Republican.

[lostinidlewonder]

This reminds me of a story:

An old man was sitting outside of his city and a stranger came walking past. He asked him, "Where are you from?" The man responded, "I came from Bendigo." The old man asked. "And what was it like in Bendigo?" The man responded, "Fantasic, great amazing, the best place you could ever have been to." The old man responded, "You will find the same here."

Another man came walking past and the old man asked, "Where are you from?" The man responded, "I came from Bendigo." The old man asked. "And what was it like in Bendigo?" The man responded, "Terrible, unfriendly people, the worst place you could ever go to." The old man responded, "You will find the same here."


When I went to visit India, I drove down a street which was pretty much 20 kms of people living on the road. The live in boxes, drink water, eat, sleep, everything there. But the people look happy. They do not know much different, they can still go on with their lives. I thought, oh my god this poverty is ridiculous, A few minutes ago I was in a 5 star hotel, now I am around the poorest people I've ever seen.

The problems with America is that it sticks its nose into affairs which are of no responsibility for them. Iraq... is Iran next? So much money spent on war, no wonder you all suffer so.

And the natural disasters is really our own fault.

Politics have always used religion to control the mass. It gives faith a bad name though, but those who know the difference will not be effected. Those who  already have a disagreement with religion use this to fuel their distrust in a God. I laugh when politicians try to use Christianity, please tell me how the sacrifice of Christ relates to political issues, I would be very interested NO they talk about rubbish like abortion, gay rights, the right to use condoms, all these sexually charged issues, its all about sex isn't it! Oh the madness!

[ramseytheii]

Well come on. The Hurricane-prone region of the United States is a Republican area of the country so naturally Texas -- not Vermont -- is more likely to receive governmental support for hurricanes and floods. 

I think it was Napoleon who said "never ascribe to malice what can more adequately be explained by incompetence". 

Obviously, I was talking about New Orleans!  You really haven't been paying attention have you!




Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

In reponse to Ramseytheii:

Hurricanes: Dont disagree with you there.  My argument is strictly on economic principals ...however once again congress has to approve not just Bush, so blaming Bush for this when Mayor Nagan is hiding in a hotel and then gets RE-ELECTED by his own city makes me laugh. "you know how you make chocolate..."
 lol

 

The Christian movment:  Dont know what your trying to argue here or why you hate Christians for some reason but whatever...your entitled to your opinion (respectively.) Again I'm talking strictly economics.

Terrorism-Where did that come from?  I'm not discussing terrorism...

Huh?  You brought up a whole list of things.  Or was that someone else?  I never pay attention to names.  Anyways, did you read the post I was responding to?  The writer lamented that bush was being blamed for everything that was going wrong, including terrorism.  Well frankly he bears a large portion of the blame for fanning the flames of terrorism across the country!

Ayn Rand-completly disagree for reasons too long in this thread.  Obviously you've misread Atlas Shrugged.  If your smarter than Adam Smith..lol!   Im a better composer than Bach.

Didn't she write, in Atlas Shrugged, that the government had no right to do anything except defend contracts?  Her point was obviously that the government shouldn't provide anything for the people by way of social programs, and that it shouldn't interfere with industrialization, corporation and investment.  or even print money.  Well, that's the philosophy that was part and parcel of the conservative movement, and today we're seeing the results!

Luckily there are still some conservatives, who stick to their principles, and say that the massive institutions which are collapsing around us are also part of the life cycle of the free market, and no matter how bad it gets for Americans, the government shouldn't do anything.  Well, that's their philosophy.  At least they have the integrity to stick with it!

Capitalism succeeds, name me one socialist country that has worked in the past...answer 0.

What do you mean "worked"?




Walter Ramsey

[rc]

This reminds me of a story:

An old man was sitting outside of his city and a stranger came walking past. He asked him, "Where are you from?" The man responded, "I came from Bendigo." The old man asked. "And what was it like in Bendigo?" The man responded, "Fantasic, great amazing, the best place you could ever have been to." The old man responded, "You will find the same here."

Another man came walking past and the old man asked, "Where are you from?" The man responded, "I came from Bendigo." The old man asked. "And what was it like in Bendigo?" The man responded, "Terrible, unfriendly people, the worst place you could ever go to." The old man responded, "You will find the same here."

Well written! (but far too passive for a political debate )

So I hear on the news this morning they want congress to allow the government $700 billion to bail out those companies, no strings attached.  That's a lot of money!  Doesn't the USA already have massive debt?

I'm curious to see where that will lead, if they go through with it.  My guess is that the economic trouble is coming regardless and all that will do is delay it a bit.

[term]

We have lost almost all our constitutional guarantees.  Our phones, our computers can now be monitored by the government, without a warrant, under the guise of battling "terrorism.'  This is just the tip of the iceberg.  There is no more freedom here now than there was in Germany in 1929.

I think that's a good comparison. The emergency acts, the big communist & jewish enemy, the reichstag fire, the economic crisis and the power grab. Today you have the patriot act, fisa, numerous executive orders, modification of the posse comitatus act, you got the muslims & the terrorists, 911, the upcoming economic crisis or collapse and a semi-dictatorship. Of course there are other parallels, like the emphasis on patriotism, military recruitment in poor regions, war, detainment (almost 1 of 100 people are in prison), right wing dominated juridiction, etc..
Those who cannot learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

[Petter]

So it´s pretty bad then...
  damn americans get over yourself   

[lostinidlewonder]

Well written! (but far too passive for a political debate )

I guess the story is only saying, you make the best out of it. But politically it is sometimes hard for us to make the best out of their (sometimes very stupid) decision making.

So I hear on the news this morning they want congress to allow the government $700 billion to bail out those companies, no strings attached.  That's a lot of money!  Doesn't the USA already have massive debt?

Oh they can just print more money can't they? That is an ingenious plan  I thought Bush would have thought of already!