"exercises"... How to do/ think about them?

[db05]

I play my pieces okay, I have a sense of dynamic/ phrasing when playing most pieces. But exercises? Hanon, Czerny, scales and arpeggios? I know hanon is much debated here, but am required to do it, so I do. Same with everything else I mentioned. So please, just help me out here...

So far, no problems with Czerny since I'm in the for beginners book, and they're like little pieces. Hanon, S and A are a problem. I know S and A are essential, and are found in a lot of the bigger pieces, but I don't know how to interpret that. imo, musically, a few octaves from C-C and back again have little musical value. Why so many notes? What does that mean? I don't get it.

I didn't really think about this at first, just went through everything assigned to me. It was when I had to learn Clementi Sonatina in C that I noticed something was wrong. I couldn't quite decide what to do with those scales. My speed and dynamics were terrible. I realize later that it was because I couldn't decide what I want. I looked for recordings to compare, but found only one. Still I couldn't make up my mind. And my heart was already rebelling against me because it is not my type of music.

But I want to be able to do this. Classical music has a lot of runs, and I want to be able to play the more interesting pieces. How should I play scales? Even tempo, even dynamic? Slight crescendo/ decrescendo? Going faster/ slower? Should I practice with metronome? Rhythm patterns? Or should I forget about playing musically and just try to get everything accurate?

And more importantly, what does CDEFGABCDEFGABCBAGFEDCBAGFEDC mean to you musically? Or CEGCEGCGECGEC?

[Petter]

Forgot about everything and play it musically 

[rc]

Why I find scales/arps musical:  Like you said, it makes the pieces a lot easier if I already have a good command of the scale.  Even if the fingering isn't the exact same as I've practiced, the general skill and shape is there and the music can more easily flow.

But also, this familiarity with basic musical patterns can be fun to play with improvisationally.  Last week my chord practice turned into a harmonic pattern and I played with scales and little melodies over top of the chaning harmony, then underneath, and whatever came to mind.  It was nothing amazing by any means, but a lot of fun - to actually build something with these 'musical building blocks'. Inspired by etcetra's book recommendation "free play" by Nachmanovitch, a good read!

In practicing them, I think that the first goal should be to make them even (tempo and dynamics) and relaxed.  To me, clean and easy scales is a good starting point for variations.  I think of 'clean' as a musical value, a sort of idealized sound to aim for, each note clear as a bell, easy to hear.  'Easy' is the physical execution, this is how the execution of the 'clean' feels in the hands/arms/body.  It feels good.  I watch an amazing pianist like Hamelin who makes it all seem effortless, and that is the sort of feeling I want to capture in my own playing.

I had to go through some frustration to get what little success I've had so far, and even then it's occurred to me that I've missed some steps - a result of my impatience.  I think my best work comes when I'm not using a metronome, but judging how fast I should go by how well I can control the movements...  As I gain control, the speed comes by itself.  Basically, my fingers start getting to where they need to be sooner.

But I still like to use the metronome from time to time.  It helps develop a steady pulse, and is a good way to tell if everything is even.  Sometimes in practice I fall into the habit of distorting my perception of time, so that I don't notice when I'm slowing down, speeding up, or haulting.

[db05]

Forgot about everything and play it musically 

The thing is, I don't find plain scales musical at all. A few notes make a melody, but a diatonic scale back and forth? Eh??


rc,
By what I gather, scales are just patterns, musical building blocks. Which implies that thay are NOT pieces of music by themselves.

In practicing them, I think that the first goal should be to make them even (tempo and dynamics) and relaxed.  To me, clean and easy scales is a good starting point for variations.  I think of 'clean' as a musical value, a sort of idealized sound to aim for, each note clear as a bell, easy to hear. 

So they ARE purely technical exercises. At least by my pov. "Easy" is good, but I don't find musical value in "clean" at all! Further, I don't hear that in any music, but if you give me recordings of exercises maybe I'd have an idea. An aural idea of the sound is what I need. Talking can only do so much.

My idea of music is like waves. Not static, always going some direction. Even if you give me a score with no dynamic markings at all, for sure I'll do some variations. For starters, accents on some beats, usually the 1st of every bar. Then slow down and get softer at the end usually.

The first few months I learned pieces, and not much exercises. So that is how I play. I can play melodies, but not scales.

[hyrst]

I am totally with RC.

I would add that you said you liked to play things with line and direction - that this equates with musicality.  Once you find the sound of it, nothing has more line than scales - and they are even better if you can build from these into related keys, arpeggios, and then into modulations.  Direct your path to the top and then down, like a climax and relaxation in a dramatic section of your music, encapsulated. 

Another creative thing you could do is to place your own moods and images to scales.  Each key has a slightly different sound and feeling to it.  It doesn't matter what they actaully are, but you could create your own image for each one if you are a creative, emotionally driven musician.  Perhaps C major could be simplicity and children playing, B minor might be thougtfulness, G melodic minor might be hope on a dark day, etc.  Whatever you can imagine that fits.  Play the mood, not the 'scale'.

If that doesn't click, or if you are a goal driven person, perhaps just setting yourself targets.  I work this way pretty well.  If I do what I feel like, I don't achieve much.  However, I am very goal orientated.  I have set myself long range goals, like to play all scales at 200/4 on the metronome - but with smaller goals, like today I want to be 2 beats ahead of yesterday so to play at 165/4.  I also have a goal routine.  I want to play every scale without stopping 5 times in a row from C right through all keys, every day - at least until I feel like this has becoem too easy and isn't work anymore.  I want to do this becuase I need to build endurance and this is a simple way of organising and monitoring progress.  I have had days when I didn't feel inclined, but eventually I have done my practice and it is easy once I get started.  I am motivated to work on this target and once I start the work I have no issue - I also have a goal to achieve in that practice session so I can see when I am half way through and then when I am becoming bored or tired I can count down how far I have left to go.  I can use this well because this is how I work. 

Perhaps you have some kind of inclination you can tap into besides doing it because you have been told to - there is little motivation involved in doing it for that reason.  Make your own goals, short and long term. Give your own scales your own meaning.

[rc]

rc,
By what I gather, scales are just patterns, musical building blocks. Which implies that thay are NOT pieces of music by themselves.

No they aren't, hahah.  (RC imagines a great pianist onstage, "and now I will play the Bb scale... in contrary!)

So they ARE purely technical exercises. At least by my pov. "Easy" is good, but I don't find musical value in "clean" at all! Further, I don't hear that in any music, but if you give me recordings of exercises maybe I'd have an idea. An aural idea of the sound is what I need. Talking can only do so much.

Well, like I said I've found some problems with my (impatient) way of practicing.  I would be too embarassed to show off my mistakes

But, I think any recording would be a good example of clean playing, I haven't encountered any recordings of sloppy playing.  I think of clean playing as sort of a prerequisite for expression, the less sloppy it is the better the expression can shine through.

Two examples immediately come to mind.  The finale of Beethovens first sonata in Fm, there's a line that's just a descending scale.  I love that piece so much, it's always popping into my head.

Or Mozart K545, bars upon bars of scales.  Then many sections are just broken chords.

The chords and scales aren't the piece.  But they are a piece of the piece.  It's possible to imagine some expression into them, like it's just been taken out of context from a beautiful piece of art.  The feel of a minor scale played ff is different from pp, like brazen and sneaky.

But even just taken for what it is, I find a certain beauty in clean and easy playing of itself.  From that point, the variations are endless.  Scales in 3rds and 6ths are seen all over the literature.

My idea of music is like waves. Not static, always going some direction. Even if you give me a score with no dynamic markings at all, for sure I'll do some variations. For starters, accents on some beats, usually the 1st of every bar. Then slow down and get softer at the end usually.

The first few months I learned pieces, and not much exercises. So that is how I play. I can play melodies, but not scales.

In the end, I guess if your heart isn't into it you probably wouldn't get anything out of it anyways.  I find them useful and engaging, it would be worth it to try them a bit and just listen for what could be improved in how you play them...  But if you're not into it, I suppose that's no big deal.  Maybe it's not for you, or maybe not yet.  I had to reach a point where I began to embrace the practice, and maybe there will be a time in the future when it's no longer for me.

[rc]

I work similar to you Hyrst, I like how you described the goal-orientation!  (I was gonna call it 'compulsive' )  Those're all approaches that go through my head.

[hyrst]

LOL!!    Yep, I think it's a little compulsive - but it works for me, so I'm going to enjoy being compulsive   

[hyrst]

I also give myself a piece of my favourite dark chocolate when I have finished my 'workout' 

[db05]

Thanks rc, I have the Mozart sonata, don't know about the Beethoven.

Scales and arps do nothing for me emotionally. I can only feel one is Major, one is minor, and that's it. The keys aren't different to me.

Some days, I do some goal-oriented stuff. For my requirements. Study a scale for 10-20 minutes, that's it. No metronome since I find it hard to follow. Half the time I'm out of tempo. Just do whatever with the scale for 10 minutes. Generally, I do exercises in 10 minute intervals, and I'm exhausted after an hour. It feels like hard work! I also give myself a treat after that.

Other days, I work on the more musical stuff. Pieces, in pieces or polishing them whole. I enjoy that the most, but the first stages in memorizing are always the most tiring. So after about an hour, am also tired.

I thought getting a better technique would cut the time and effort, now I don't know. It doesn't click. I'm trying to find the right balance here, for best results. Usually when I get compulsive, my concentrated brain isn't working and I have to do something I had previously memorized. e.g. C Major scale, an easy piece, or Hanon 1. I don't know if that is good or not.

[hyrst]

It is good when your scales are hard work for you becasue you can benefit from them - and yes it will make your pieces easier to learn and play.  However, to truly see the benefit - and to get the emcouiragement from comparison in improvement - you need to establish a daily routine.  With my routine, I don't feel any differnet - I've just done lots of hard work - however, every day I notice my scales are faster, Hanon is becoming easy, fingers have more power, I achieve more with less energy, etc.  Every day I am surprised becasue I didn't exdpect the change in one day - but it wouldn't happen if I did occassioanl spurts of exercises, it must be regular.  (I did beat my scale tempo again, I wonder what I will do today?  )

To start with the metronome, clap and tap first, start in 5 finger posiiton, then move  to your easiest scale, and only increase speed gradually.  Start at about 4 notes into a 60 count.  If that is too slow, gradually increase it.  Find the tempo beat that matches your playing speed at comfort rather than trying to match your speed to the metronome until you are comfortable with it.

[debussy symbolism]

Using this forum as an advice can't lead to anything productive, since there is a splendid amount of members who don't know squat about anything. First of all, you have to know what is a technical exercise, and what is a musical piece. Musical pieces are a conglomeration of various technical patterns, whether scales, arps, chords, intervals, whatnot. Exercises, are musical pieces that are composed of only the specified technical demand. Practicing exercises, say scales, will give you efficiency in scales, and in pieces that feature them. If say you only spend time practicing pieces, you will have to spend alot more time on each segment. Exercises facilitate proper movement, speed and dynamics. All in all, exercises will not solve your problems, but they will make them alot easier, provided you do them right.

[hyrst]

DS, I can't figure out what is different about what you are saying - and if it is the same as everything else that has been said, why open with an insult?  Remember that forums are supposed to be places where people discuss opinions and ideas - which are going to be different or there would be nothing to discuss - they are not necessarily a place to find the answers to the universe's toughest questions, although someday you might be lucky enough to stumble across that answer.  Would we recognise it if we did?  I doubt I woudl because I have too many of my own opinions already.

[rc]

Some days, I do some goal-oriented stuff. For my requirements. Study a scale for 10-20 minutes, that's it. No metronome since I find it hard to follow. Half the time I'm out of tempo. Just do whatever with the scale for 10 minutes. Generally, I do exercises in 10 minute intervals, and I'm exhausted after an hour. It feels like hard work! I also give myself a treat after that.

...

I thought getting a better technique would cut the time and effort, now I don't know. It doesn't click. I'm trying to find the right balance here, for best results. Usually when I get compulsive, my concentrated brain isn't working and I have to do something I had previously memorized. e.g. C Major scale, an easy piece, or Hanon 1. I don't know if that is good or not.

I think all I can add is how I came to see value in this sort of practice, I had to reach a certain point.  It was after I'd learned a bunch of pieces, it was becoming easy to memorize and play a piece, but after a while it was starting to feel like a checklist.  Eventually I came to the point where I wanted to spend more time building general skills, so I could sightread, and make the whole learning process smoother.  That's how exercises came to have meaning for me.

That's why I figured you might not be at that point yet.  It doesn't sound like your heart is in it, it sounds like you aren't getting much out of scale practice and that 10 mins might be largely wasted.  Judging by your signature, I would guess you're still new on the path, haven't covered too much repertoire yet. 

To be clear, I think it's perfectly natural to not want to practice scales in the earlier stages of learning!  Nobody starts piano wanting to play scales   I came to piano to learn Beethovens sonatas, the first thing I did was try and learn the Tempest sonata, when that got too hard I thought maybe the Waldstein would be easier   I learned the first few bars of a lot of advanced pieces before I decided maybe I could start with easier music.

...But, it sounds like you're required to learn some scales for a curriculum.  So my suggestion is to keep trying to find something worthwhile in scales, or maybe try to find a musical piece that features a lot of scales and you could learn a bit that way.  Ya gotta take a look at your motives.  I'm sure there's a reason you're taking the curriculum that requires scales, if nothing else you could work on them out of faith that it will eventually add up to better music.

What has your teacher said about these concerns?

[momopi]

I like exercises. For some reasons, I enjoy playing them as much as I play literature.

I like the idea of playing cleanly as possible, esp scales and arpeggios. As an intermediate student, I find it difficult to achieve, and that difficulty somehow challenges me - like I want to practice more to achieve the cleanest way of playing.

I also believe it develops control. My former teacher did not make me do scales. But now, with my new teacher (next meeting will be on October though), she makes me do scales and I see improvement in fingering (for easy pieces w/o them) and playing literature.

But I guess my main motivation for playing scales and other exercises is that I believe they are building blocks that will help me play difficult virtuoso pieces that I love in the future. 

[db05]

Thanks for your input! I was just wondering if scales, arpeggios and hanon had musical value to others, or if it's about playing cleanly and stuff...

To be clear, I think it's perfectly natural to not want to practice scales in the earlier stages of learning!  Nobody starts piano wanting to play scales   I came to piano to learn Beethovens sonatas, the first thing I did was try and learn the Tempest sonata, when that got too hard I thought maybe the Waldstein would be easier   I learned the first few bars of a lot of advanced pieces before I decided maybe I could start with easier music.

LOL, rc. Start with Beethoven? Are you on drugs?

I have to admit, that at first I was happy to just play anything, even Hanon. I was so excited to learn Ten Little Indians last year, only to know that it was grade zero. That feeling got lost on me when I got acquainted with the piano literature through listening. I wa majoring in guitar then, but I love the sound of piano I want I want I want... *droooooool*

My teacher says I'm good.  I manage to pass her standards, but not mine... I got tired of talking about stuff early on- we can't quite understand each other- generation gap??

I did try K545 for a while before, teacher was against it, as it was too hard. I have to admit those scales and arpeggios are what lost me, the speed can be attained if given enough time... Which brought me to this question, if there's something I'm missing.

Anyone else here doing metronome practice? I try it on pieces sometimes, but find it really confusing... I can tap with my feet though (they altenate so it doesn't hurt).  hyrst, what do you mean by gradually?

[hyrst]

I think I used gradually in two different ways.  First of all, to find your current comfortt speed.  It is easier to find if you see if it matches tempo bit by bit - don't jump form 50 to 150 when you're trying to match your speed.  That sida is just common sense.  (BTW if you can find somebody else who can play to a metronome it is much easier to match thier speed so they can train you in its use - perhaps ask you teacher to help you find the right tempo.)

The other side ot if it, once you have found your comfort speed, aim to increase a little every day rather than take a big jump at first.  One of the important reasons for this is that matching the tempo comes not only from finger power and other technical aspects that shoulf develop comfortably, but also from sensing the beat.  This is a valuable thing learnt from practicing scales properly, one of the reasons it makes a big difference to some poeples' playing - like mine.

For example, I can play at 4 notes in 165.  Apart from the physical control to do this, it is because I can sense the rhythm at this speed.  If I suddenly try to jump to 172, I just don't have the sense yet of how 4 notes fit into that - all I can hear is a really fast banging noise.  I can't 'feel' it yet.  A little while ago, I couldn't feel 165, it sounded like a fast knocking noise and that would just send me into a kind of fluster or panic - I couldn't play at that speed because I had to sense it first.  To be able to sense it, I built up towards it, and now that tempo feels simple and clear to rather than being a panic.  (I find this important in my practice because I am not comfortable in playiung my pieces often with the metronome, I can't hear well enough what I am doing.  But, practicing scales is helping me keep a better rhythm and tempo - I used to speed a lot - as well as making that tempo seem much easier - Presto used to scare me, but now I realise it i now as fast as I thought it was.)

I hope that helps, explains what I mean.  Get to 'know' each tempo as you build up through it.