What do you think is the leading "enemy" to students' progress ?

[timothy42b]

most kids would rather learn the chords on the guitar and play a bunch of rubbishy rock and pop songs.

Trends come and go, and right now guitar is popular.   But there might be some things we can learn from guitar players, because almost everybody who picks it up succeeds in playing the standard repertoire well enough to play fluently in public and jam with their friends.

Why?  Well, they practice a lot, but without much concentration.  Guitar players noodle all day while chatting with friends, watching tv, doing their homework.  But they also play almost everything in real time interactively, at tempo.  That can really speed up some types of learning. 

Granted, few reach the virtuoso levels possible.  But everybody achieves competence, and I'm not sure we can say that for pianists. 

[term]

eating while practicing

watching tv while practicing

petting the cat while practicing

how does that work? Do the students you refer to have 3 hands? I couldn't do any of those even if i wanted to, except for watching tv - i actually watched the simpsons as a reflection on the piano lid while practising once 

[mike saville]

Some really good points made here 

I do think that practice is one of the keys but I think as teachers we may be too quick to blame the pupils for lack of practice. I've known and spoken to many teachers in my time and I am amazed by the number of teachers that don't discuss practice during lessons - if they do discuss it it is only when it hasn't been done. This is a major problem IMO. If the student is not taught how to practice properly how can they be expected work properly at home and improve?

This also extends to the parents. Parents need to understand that proper practice will not sound nice and tuneful but will be disjointed, unmusical and probably not very nice to listen to. If practice sounds tuneful all the time the student is either not working properly or playing thigns that are too easy.

 . . watching this topic with much interest

[pianistimo]

That's very true.  Some of what I said was joking, actually.  I mean, when i had little ones sometimes i'd have a bite of sandwich in my mouth (wash hands really quick) and practice while still chewing.  Also, i was joking a bit about the cats.  Cats are actually quite good audiences sometimes and i actually think they are more help than hinderance.

Another idea, too, would be that some students just are not as anti-social, in regards to long hours of practice, as others.  They are reprimanded for 'not practicing' when it really isn't their 'thing' to practice for  hours alone and/or unattended. 

That's why i think it's a certain kind of person that takes piano to all it's various levels.  Some just want to learn to sightread and play basic things.  If you ask the student when they first start taking piano lessons what their personal goals are - you can help them reach their own goals and not so much your own.  Although, most teachers like to go above and beyond.

For students that are more social, it might be that they are satisfied with a year or two of piano.  I don't think this necessarily reflects badly on the teacher.  After all, we are not responsible for what they personally want to do in their lives.  If you look at it with a wide berth - you see it as a sort of like surfing.  Surfing to find that student that #1 likes to be alone  #2 likes to practice  #3 is somewhat obsessive-compulsive about finding the 'right sound'  #4 really enjoys music

There are a lot of other instruments and ways to combine piano with instruments in chamber music, musicals, or jazz settings that children should /could be exposed to for enjoyment with socialization. 

[a-sharp]

Not at all to ignore pianistimo ...

But Mike - good points.

As part of the pedagogy program at the uni where I go, we have 6 "observation" lessons during the semester - 6 different students, at least 3 different teachers. only 1 of 3 teachers I observed asked the student about practicing ... just a non-judgmental inquiry of genuine interest - were there able to find time, how was it, etc. No so ironically, I felt this teacher was the "best" of the 3 - most responsive, tuned, in - her students were the same...

I don't think I was ever really taught how to practice, at least not in the same sense as I have learned now.... As was already mentioned - clear instructions are vital.

*hangs head in shame b/c 3 of my students today got pathetic practice instructions b/c I felt SO rushed*

Piano lessons are really a 3-way proposition.... Teacher/student/parent.

[timothy42b]

  I mean, when i had little ones sometimes i'd have a bite of sandwich in my mouth (wash hands really quick) and practice while still chewing. 

Another idea, too, would be that some students just are not as anti-social, in regards to long hours of practice, as others.  They are reprimanded for 'not practicing' when it really isn't their 'thing' to practice for  hours alone and/or unattended. 


There are a lot of other instruments and ways to combine piano with instruments in chamber music, musicals, or jazz settings that children should /could be exposed to for enjoyment with socialization. 

A good example and a good insight. 

You set an example yourself by practicing publicly.  At least your kids probably come to accept practice as a routine part of life, and you won't be in the hypocritical position of telling your students they have plenty of time to practice but you are too busy! 

But the social problem is an overlooked insight.  It is one thing to look at not practicing as simply doing nothing.  You've got empty time, you are too lazy to fill it with work.  But in fact it's more productive to think of it as doing something other than practicing.  There has been a generational shift in values over time, you can find good descriptions of what boomers are like vs other decades lots of places.  But where my generation valued individual achievement and competence, so deeply you didn't have to explain it, other generations have a greater emphasis on teamwork, interaction, and shared success.  You probably can't motivate the two groups the same way.  I'd suspect a lot of teachers are my age and haven't picked up on it. 

Hmm.  If I play piano, I'll be trapped for hours a day alone in an empty room, it'll take me years to obtain any skill, and the odds of making a career as a concert pianist are statistically zero.  If I play guitar I'll do it with my friends, I can join any kind of fun group I want, I'll be jamming in six months if I'm retarded, and the groupies will roll in.  Starting to seem like a no-brainer? 

I play regularly in community bands with amateur musicians.  Their individual practice varies from obsessed to none, with most in a minimum maintenance mode.  They are there to make music, but specifically in a social group context.  For most their practice is practical and goal oriented. 

[etcetra]

I can tell you that a bad teacher can have huge impact on student's progress.. I was practicing 4hrs+ I had a bad teacher in college and i started having tendinitis problem in 6 months.. and well, I had trouble developing technically since then.. its only recently that I was able to undo all that tension and finally able to build a healthy technique.  I've seen other students who were crippled and took years to recover from what they learned.  the problem is that these people took yrs to learn these habits and it takes a lot of time to unlearn these habits, and it becomes a huge setback.

Other than that i think a lot of our problems comes from our self-image, and how we attach our self worth into music when we become more "serious" about it.  The joy you have in music becomes a burden, and you always feel impatient about your progress.. you can't help but feel competitive among other piano students.  You may hear a great performance by a young star and you might end up feeling like you just got no talent to do this thing.. in short you stop doing music for yourself and succumb to the criticisms. 

I think if someone approaches music with the attitude that it's a life long process of development and nuturing that sense of 'wonder', as Glenn Gould was said, then you have all the reasons to keep on going.  It took me a long time to realize that, and that the biggest enemy to my progress, was myself, my attitude toward music, and life in general.

[db05]

Other than that i think a lot of our problems comes from our self-image, and how we attach our self worth into music when we become more "serious" about it.  The joy you have in music becomes a burden, and you always feel impatient about your progress.. you can't help but feel competitive among other piano students.  You may hear a great performance by a young star and you might end up feeling like you just got no talent to do this thing.. in short you stop doing music for yourself and succumb to the criticisms. 

I can so relate to this. I think this situation is inevitable for someone who is really passionate about something. It just so happens we are serious about piano, it could also be something else. Or someone.

It is both a blessing and a curse. Being passionate about music means a whole new world is opened up, and sometimes I find myself laughing because of a nice piece. Or feeling so proud that I have mastered this section I'm learning. Non-musicians would not understand those moments. But it also means feeling disappointed with mistakes in your own playing, and being jealous of the more talented pianists...

[etcetra]

yea its tough.. well but i try to tell myself whatever it is, it is not that important .. I am not going to die from playing the wrong notes..Samurais on the other hand has to pay their mistakes with their own lives.   

You hear stories about kids being so excited about the guitar that kept on playing until their fingers started bleeding. music has to be about that feeling in some ways... its just that we are trying to experience that deeper through practice

[db05]

yea its tough.. well but i try to tell myself whatever it is, it is not that important .. I am not going to die from playing the wrong notes..Samurais on the other hand has to pay their mistakes with their own lives.   

Well it IS important! You're not gonna die in the literal sense, but part of you dies when you play badly. I'd feel like I was committing a crime.

[etcetra]

Well it IS important! You're not gonna die in the literal sense, but part of you dies when you play badly. I'd feel like I was committing a crime.

i used to think that way too.. but who are you really harming? I think of proffesional athletes.. if you were a basketball player playing in the NBA final, you have tremendous pressure to win, but i wouldn't be surprised if they were thinking, this is just a game after all, and in the end all i need to do is have fun.  I don't know its hard, but for me it helps to live in that kind of paradox.. its serious but you can have a sense of humor about it. its priceless but worthless at the same time.  Life is just easier if you stop taking everything so seriously.

[db05]

its priceless but worthless at the same time.  Life is just easier if you stop taking everything so seriously.

Haha, I guess so... 

[a-sharp]

I personally think it's worse to play music unmusically than to miss a few notes. Accuracy is important - but all the "correct" notes played with no musicality is ... not music.

?

[etcetra]

I guess mindlessness in any form is bad for music.. mindlessness in practice leads to endless repetition without results.. and if you are not pay attention to music, you are just playing like a robot.  Its like you need the extreme discipline of the Left Brain and the totally creativity of the right brain.. and for someone who is new to musical instrument.. its very diffiuclt to grasp both.

[a-sharp]

This could be applied to anything in life in general (except maybe sleep).

[etcetra]

This could be applied to anything in life in general (except maybe sleep).

True.. i guess I was thinking about all the mindless finger exercises we do on the piano... and the fact that i know so many asian people who learned piano and just end up hating it because it was so mechanical for them to practice.  It's funny but that kind of mindless discipline is encouraged for the wrong reasons.

[a-sharp]

I have come to agree with this feeling about hanon-type exercises. Scales can be boring too - but they are important to learn. Czerny is Ok b/c there is some phrasing and musicality in his etudes.  But I try to avoid giving my students anything mindless at all costs. What's the point?

[goldentone]

The variable of talent aside, I think the leading enemy to a student's progress is desire.  And connected to desire, discipline.

[etcetra]

I have come to agree with this feeling about hanon-type exercises. Scales can be boring too - but they are important to learn. Czerny is Ok b/c there is some phrasing and musicality in his etudes.  But I try to avoid giving my students anything mindless at all costs. What's the point?

yea.. i guess the tough part of learning is that a lot of people do have the desire to play, but not many people like it enough to practice with discipline or really use their minds and think when they practice.  In some ways we are so used to not thinking about what we learn.. its true it happens everywhere, its easy for students on any subject to cram information about whatever they are learning, pass the test and not learn anything.  Its just that in piano you can't fake it as well as you can on your final exams.

[tds]

too much pianostreet

[db05]

too much pianostreet

Oh, I thought that was the leading "friend" to progress...

[tds]

the leading "friend" to progress is food, really. am hungry..

[a-sharp]

pianostreet - or the internet in general!!!

[etcetra]

pianostreet - or the internet in general!!!

Agreed.. so much useful info to read here that I forget to practice 

[tds]

Agreed.. so much useful info..

n so much crap, too 

[tds]

re. useful vs. crap/misleading info on pianostreet, or internet in general. while we're at it..

the true danger is our lack of knowledge or certainty to know which info is useful (good), and which one misleading (bad); and/or our inability to keep in a position where we grow and absorb goodies while staying non effected by baddies.

my one cent. tds

[mousekowski]

Going back to the idea of jamming and improvising socially, I think a key thing is to get yourself (or the student) into an 'un-viscious circle' - a cycle of positive reinforcement. For piano students at school, this might involve playing in school concerts and getting the applause and approval of their peers, and then getting motivated to go and learn an even better piece that will get even more applause.

In jazz, the jam session acts as a social activity, but there is also some very special learning going on. There are anecdotes about Charlie Parker being not very good to start with, getting involved socially in jam sessions but being out-played, going away and doing individual practice (woodshedding) and then jamming again and eventually becoming a jazz legend. The question for me is this: was it the woodshedding that made him into an amazing player or was it the regular and lengthy performance opportunities afforded by jamming?

[etcetra]

mousekowsk,

I talked to one of my teachers about this and he said that they had A LOT more oppertunities jamming and gigging growing up, and they cite that as one of the reason they were able to improve very fast.  They told me how much easier it is to find local gigs, and find touring band where you can shed your abilities. 

The school I went to had tons of great players back in the 70's, and you hear stories about late night jam sessions, but  hardly any of that goes on, partly because its harder to find open practice rooms that late, for security reasons.

I feel like more and more you have to be born into being a proffesional jazz musicians.. you look at Taylor Eigsti, Eldar Dgnjirov, Brad Mehldau, they lived in a very rare enviroment where they were plenty of oppertunites to play... like actually having a high school jazz band.

There are jam sessions out there still but they are few and far in between, and if you aren't really playing at the proffesoinal level you just get sidelined most of the time.  A lot of jam sessions are not open, positive enviroment, and from my experience most students are just frustrated and discouraged after going there a few times.

I agree though however about, having a enviroment like you describe... a place where people can just get together and jam all night long if they want.. its not that much different than kids playing their guitars until their fingers start bleeding, you have to have that kind of passion and propell you through the learning.. but too often that fire is extinguisehed before people have the chance to let it shine.

[mousekowski]

I think you've got a point about being born into a musically active family.

[etcetra]

mousekowski ,

I think it's more so than ever.. Most of the teachers I know didn't grow up in a very musical family, but they had a lot of exposure to jazz improv when they were young... their parents weren't necessary musicians.  They were gigging 5 nights a week.. and even they tell us that its almost impossible to do that anymore.

[dan101]

Laziness is a big destroyer. Hopefully, the student's values are being or have been grounded and taught at home.

[etcetra]

Laziness is a big destroyer. Hopefully, the student's values are being or have been grounded and taught at home.

That kind of brings up the question, why are the students lazy in the first place? is it because their parents are making them learn piano?  Or could it be that they never learned that there is much reward in doing something that requires hard work?

I've talked to several friends of mine who used to play piano because their parents forced them to when they were young.. I guess in some asain family, music is taught as a mean to teach discipline. most of them went pretty far, but the problem is that  they also stopped playing too.. they usually me that they wish they could play the piano, but they can't because every time they sit on the piano it brings up negative memories from when they are young.

I know you can't make kids practice, but if they are lazy and don't want to learn, why do they even bother to take lessons?

[m19834]

Okay, after pondering java's posts here for awhile, I have come back to comment  .

Furthermore, we must be critical of a routine - if it stops working effectively at any point, it must be either revised or thrown out, and we must be careful not to go down with the ship.

Yes, I have decided to more or less throw "efficiency" out the window for now, and think in terms of effectiveness.  In my case, at times I have worried so much about being "efficient" in terms of organization, time use and these things, that I have gotten very stuck... or developed routines that mean next to nothing.  Efficiency without meaning becomes relatively ineffective as an approach to living a fulfilling life.  And, if nothing else, I would like my life to be at least meaningful.  I can tell when I am practicing effectively or not, and ultimately, no matter how organized or unorganized I may be, effective practicing is always the most efficient, I have found. 

Also, "The endless exploration of sound" does not mean exclusively improvising. Take any chord progression, run, contrapuntal section [especially counterpoint] from some piece, and try accenting different notes/chords, emphasizing different voices, etc. This is exploring music written by someone else - that hopefully says what we want to say much better than we can say it. But then you take these words and make them personal again. Depending on what you do, you can make a single measure sound like entirely different things.

It's strange, only just recently have I been exploring sound more, I think.  It's not necessarily that I am trying different devices on a particular passage, though that can be interesting.  It's more like flipping some kind of switch now within myself, where in one case I am going through a routine, and in the other case I am listening and hearing what I am playing, and somehow finding meaning and fulfillment within the endeavor in that very moment.  I am not positive how this came about, unfortunately, though my last meeting with my mentor may have had something to do with it .

I do know that I am finding this kind of practicing to be way more effective.  I am not sure (yet !) how to help others to do it though.  Though my meetings with my mentor have been of a great help, I know that it's ultimately my decision.  Objectively, I suppose a mentor/teacher will aim to lead an individual to a place, and then it's up to an individual to explore it or so.  I guess what my question is, how do you get people to see it ?  It seems that individuals can be led there, but what if they are not capable of seeing it once they are there ?  That's the part that I don't understand.  My mentor probably more or less led me in this direction, but what if I didn't see it ?  I suspect there is much more to be seen of course, but still ! 

I think it's becoming very well-known and perhaps cliche to talk about natives of particular lands being able to see the people who came off of the big ships that brought the explorers from overseas, but not being capable of seeing the ships, as it just wasn't anything they had ever conceived of before.  They knew of people already, and therefore saw the people, but they didn't know of the sorts of ships that brought them and therefore didn't see them.  Perhaps helping other individuals to explore music, explore sound, to listen to themselves ... is something like that ? 

Well, back to the bench for me.

[go12_3]

I think the "enemy" to a students' progress, is recreation---sports and school activities.  Plus, distraction in everyday living.  Cell phones, Internet, etc.  Too much commotion going on that the student can't focus as much while they practice.  Or the most common one, is laziness.  Also, not into playing the piano to practice.  Or is forced to take piano lessons.  Or, don't like the music.  Or, not enough time to pracitice due to the extra activities.  Or circumstances---like the finger might get broken----Oh, MY!   Or not interested in playing piano.   

[a-sharp]

I still say - this is in part a parenting responsibility - to help guide - meaning also - decide on what to cut out, knowing that *no one* can do *everything* and do it ALL well. Kids don't know this instinctively - they often want to do it all. I know I did - but when I was 12, I was forced to choose between a couple things and that was it. Of course, part of this was money - which, IMO, helped the situation. I think - when $ is no object, often they can't see the other side of the picture - the other good reasons to limit the # of activities. It's not all the kid's fault - or the fault of sports. I mean - I played Tennis, and was in dance, and band - and still did piano well. But, some of these kids are doing cross country, tennis, volunteer work at the hospital, music ensemble groups AND trying to do piano too - there's just no time to practice ... ALSO - they give WAY more homework for school now than they used to... which makes yet another case for limiting the outside activities. ...

(rambling...)

[go12_3]

At times a parent's insistence that a child must continue lessons when he/she is too young to make the decision.......and how a student suddenly looses all interest in learning to play piano....

[kelly_kelly]

I think a lack of goals can hurt a younger student in particular. For the first few years of my (very fragmented) piano education, my teachers didn't emphasize performing or competing, even though I really wanted to. As such, I very unfocused, i.e. I would spend my time at the piano working on random pieces I liked rather than practicing my assigned music, because I wasn't really targeting anything. I think I could have been a much better pianist now if I had worked harder in a focused way back then. I probably would also be more used to performing.

[etcetra]

i guess we should all realize that its very rare to have a child who happens to love music, and who happens to get an early exposure, and happens to study with the right teachers, who happens to have stable family who can afford lesson and piano.. who happen to have modest coordinaiton/ear/rhythm.. etc

A lot of these factors happens by chance.  Maybe the child prodigies we see were just lucky in that respect... If any of the factors mention above is missing it will be a hinderance in child's learning.  I guess the only thing we can do is make sure that we don't force/sabotage any of these factors .. well as best as we can, for a child

[njalli]

As a student i can say that computer games like: Wow and runescape are the worst enemy

more than once and more then twice have i begane playing these games for like a month but when i start i always play for like 7-8 hours aday, it gets my grades down and i jsut stop playing the piano. So i made a promisse to my self to NEVER play a addicting game again

[a-sharp]

haha - computer games cause LOTS of problems, not just with piano!! (JMNSHO, of course!).

Kelly-Kelly - U make a good point.

[electrodoc]

Much good discussion here. The emphasis seems to be on good practice and use of time, but how many teachers actually teach a student how to practice?

I think that several factors need to be taken into account: the age of the student, the ability level, the experience of the student. For a young person of limited experience then perhaps just one or two goals for the week. Show the student how to practice to achieve these goals. With an intermediate student discuss the nature of goal setting and use of time. Constantly remind the student of what constructive practice is - and demonstrate.

Many student thaink that good practice is to start a work at the beginning and keep repeating it (mistakes and all). Help them to dissect the work and find the potential technical difficulties. Talk about (and demonstrate) phrasing. Emphasise hands separate for while (in order to be able to produce a good melodic line).

Of course, there are many other specific topics that one could discuss but I think you get the idea.

It always surprises me that students are told to go and study but are often not taught how to study.

[etcetra]

I agree, It's so important that you learn how to practice as a student.  A focused practice with clear intent and clear method can make a huge difference in your improvement.  My last teacher in college actually taught students how to practice.. and for good number of people learning how to practice was a major revealation. I really wish I knew this when i started, I probably would have saved a lot of time. 

[a-sharp]

Etcetra... *ditto!*

[go12_3]

A boken finger or fingers........   

[etcetra]

btw I had teachers who just tell you to "do this" and "Do that".. and kept on getting frustrated because I couldn't... teachers really need to be clear and be able to show what they want you to do, but some teachers don't know how to break down the process for the students..

its like telling someone who is driving a car for the first time to press the gas pedal and go, tell you 5 different things at a time as you are driving frantically and get mad at you for nearly getting yourself killed.  Learning how to teach is important.

[Petter]

But it´s even more important to learn how to drive 

[keypeg]

teachers really need to be clear and be able to show what they want you to do, but some teachers don't know how to break down the process for the students..

Is that not part of teaching?

[etcetra]

But it´s even more important to learn how to drive 

Yea, I guess its more important to find a good driving instructor, because you life does depend on it.. some what

[pianoplayjl]

teachers
themselves.