D Major scale left hand fingering

[goalevan]

anybody else find this scale to be very awkward when using stardard fingering 54321321 and 12312341? is that how it's supposed to be done?

[monk]

Use the fingering that emerges if you have the 4th finger on F#. Much more comfortable.

RULE:
Right Hand: If in the scale there is a Bb (or A#), then there has to be the 4th finger - the rest emerges from that.
Left Hand the same mirrored: If in the scale there is a F#, the 4th finger on it.

Best Wishes,
Monk

[goalevan]

so you all would use 21432132 and 23123412?

[bernhard]

so you all would use 21432132 and 23123412?

No.

Most people use the “orthodox” (but very inefficient) fingering 54321321 on the LH.

The fingering Monk suggested (the best) is only used by him and me (I thought it was just me… )

But why such a fingering should be the best? Have a look here, where all is revealed:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1080296644

Also, do not limit this approach to D major. Use it for all scales.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[goalevan]

thank you monk/Bernhard, makes a lot of sense now.

[tunneller]

Hi the link posted by Bernhard in 2004 seems to have expired. Is it still around somewhere online?

The fingering proposed by Monk and Bernhard makes sense to me (rather than trying to do every scale with C-Major fingering).

Are these "non-orthodox" fingerings written up anywhere for the other keys? I thought I saw it somewhere on PianoStreet, but can't find it now.

Thanks, John

[Petter]

LH A major: 21321432
LH G major: 32132143

You can also try G minor harmonic in LH with the 4th finger on Eb instead of A.
Same with C minor harmonic , 4th finger on Ab instead of D and F minor 4th finger on Db instead of G. 

I find F major left hand 32143213 easier.

Don't know about any other "unorthodox" fingerings.

[bernhard]

Hi the link posted by Bernhard in 2004 seems to have expired. Is it still around somewhere online?

The fingering proposed by Monk and Bernhard makes sense to me (rather than trying to do every scale with C-Major fingering).

Are these "non-orthodox" fingerings written up anywhere for the other keys? I thought I saw it somewhere on PianoStreet, but can't find it now.

Thanks, John

Here is the link:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg22756.html#msg22756
(unorthodox fingering for all major and minor scales plus an explanation)

You may want to have a look here too:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5003.msg47438.html#msg47438
(summary of links on the importance of working on scales)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4752.msg47443.html#msg47443
(Antoher summary of scale links)

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[m]

Here is the link:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg22756.html#msg22756
(unorthodox fingering for all major and minor scales plus an explanation)

Indeed, at first glance this sounds unorthodox and interesting... in theory. However, in practice and real life it is not as cool and innovative as it sounds on paper (or looks on screen  ). Moreover, I find this fingering highly impractical, as while curing one problem it introduces another, much bigger one, which is--mentally, for successful playing and syncronyzing  hands together (esp. in faster tempi) our brain needs points of syncronyzation, which is easiest achieved when the thumbs in both hands coincide at least once per octave.

The proposed fingering completly breaks this "syncronization" pattern, which invariably leads to the point where hands would not go together anymore.

There is a deep reason why historically things went one or another way. In many cases there is no reason to re-invent the wheel, especially proposing to make it octagonal... even for sake of coolness and unorthodox thinking.

Best, M

[m]

Sorry, double post.

[rc]

An idea I picked up from CPE Bach's essay is to be able to play a few different plausible fingerings for any given scale.  This would be useful for versatility, like if sightreading or improvising the hand happens to be in a certain position, it would be good to have a few fingering possibilities at disposal.

But if one is milling over a piece, there's all the time in the world to figure out a careful fingering.  For a lot of music, this is unavoidable.

CPE Bach also has some different ideas of fingering a scale than we usually use.  One I've found useful is 1,2,1,2,1,2 across white keys (or 2 on a single black) - it's useful in the context of part writing where the hand is playing multiple lines.  (This is JSB's son we're talking about here )

But another fingering option he gives, on the other end of the hand is 3,4,3,4,3,4...  Which I've always found uncomfortable, though I find 4,5,4,5 alright.  I figure his hand must have been built differently than mine.

[Petter]

Indeed, at first glance this sounds unorthodox and interesting... in theory. However, in practice and real life it is not as cool and innovative as it sounds on paper (or looks on screen  ). Moreover, I find this fingering highly impractical, as while curing one problem it introduces another, much bigger one, which is--mentally, for successful playing and syncronyzing  hands together (esp. in faster tempi) our brain needs points of syncronyzation, which is easiest achieved when the thumbs in both hands coincide at least once per octave.

I think it works well when the left hand is ascending but the turn when the scale starts descending and contrary motion doesn't work very well.

[richard black]

Try 12345 RH, 54321 LH in any key - comes in useful now and then.

[go12_3]

If you are doing the 4 octave scale in D Major , the left hand would go
54321321, then 4321321 and so forth. 

Therefore, the 12345 RH and 54321 LH will  not apply to any key.

I find only 6 major scales that uses the 54321 LH fingering,  and only 4 major scales uses the 3214  LH fingering  except that B Major and G flat Major scales the LH begins with the 4th finger. 

Happy fingering!   

best wishes,

go12_3

[db05]

Happy fingering!   

You just had to say it. Is that a perverted smile? 

[richard black]

Therefore, the 12345 RH and 54321 LH will  not apply to any key.

Didn't really explain myself, did I? Sorry. I meant that it is worth playing ANY scale in 12345 fingering, and I do actually mean 123451234512345....., because you get some useful moves from it that one day will come in handy in fingering something really awkward. I emphatically don't recommend that as an everyday fingering, however!

And another one occurred to me just now while I was practising: practise scales with sliding fingers too. For example, D major RH (1 octave) 12331233. 'The art of the sixth finger', Busoni once called it.