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So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu... (Read 16829 times)

Offline db05

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So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu...
« on: October 13, 2008, 10:24:50 AM »
what do you do?

Just throwing out the question for everyone, teachers and students alike. Not that I'm trying it now. For future reference.

Assuming you're not quite ready yet. You can't just take the score and play it. And your teacher isn't going to help you or maybe you don't have one. On your own, what do you do?

Aside from the methods in Chang's book (I've read it), what else do you recommend? Are there pieces you can learn to work your way up to FI?
- an etude for 3x4
- easier piece with the same speed
- Chopin or romantic piece with the same feel
- ... What are the other prerequisites?  ???

I know, I know it's an old topic. But please, don't link me to breadboy's thead. This is completely different.  ;)
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piano sheet music of Fantaisie-Impromptu


Offline concerto_love

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Re: So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu...
«Reply #1 on: October 13, 2008, 02:32:42 PM »
Guess u should try first some pieces with the same speed, then increase the difficulty level. Then try to play FI, I think u should practice the feel at last... (Sorry if I can't helping, but I set my FI target like this  :) )
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Offline db05

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Re: So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu...
«Reply #2 on: October 13, 2008, 03:51:11 PM »
Guess u should try first some pieces with the same speed, then increase the difficulty level. Then try to play FI, I think u should practice the feel at last... (Sorry if I can't helping, but I set my FI target like this  :) )

Don't know anything that sounds like FI, and is fast like FI... except a Chopin etude. I don't even know the number. But wouldn't that be harder? I don't know.

I can see myself working through
Bach First Lessons - Little Preludes - Inventions - Sinfonias - WTC - Scarlatti?
Clementi - Kuhlau - Haydn - Mozart - Beethoven?
Chopin this? - Chopin that? - FI - Etudes

Can you say, WHAAAAAAAT?!?! See what I mean? There are gaps. Nothing seems to lead to the other, except the increase in "difficulty level". Some Beethoven don't sound remotely like Mozart et. al., though it's still classical.

And Chopin. Good old Chopin. So much variety. I just want to play Raindrop Prelude and then FI, but what happens in between?
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Offline pianisten1989

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Re: So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu...
«Reply #3 on: October 13, 2008, 04:07:45 PM »
Play a lot of bach and czerny! I wich I did that as a beginner. Bach is great for the coordination, and czerny is great for pure techinque. Get Bach's inventions and WTC, both tapes. And Czerny: School of velocity and 40 daily excersices.
With these books, you will get quite a lot of pure technique, which you will need for further romantic pieces. Gl Hf

Offline allthumbs

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Re: So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu...
«Reply #4 on: October 13, 2008, 09:48:03 PM »
I say, if you want to play Fantaisie-impromptu, then just jump in and learn it. It will make a good technical exercise at whatever speed you play it at.

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Offline prins

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Re: So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu...
«Reply #5 on: October 14, 2008, 10:11:56 AM »
Hi

Bach First Lessons - Little Preludes - Inventions - Sinfonias - WTC - Scarlatti?

Clementi - Kuhlau - Haydn - Mozart - Beethoven?

instead of:
Chopin this? - Chopin that? - FI - Etudes
how about:
some Heller opus 47 studies - some Heller opus 46 (almost virtuoso studies are at the end of the book) - perhaps Chopin waltz opus 64 in C sharp minor - then Chopin FI.

I think there is no need for a specific 4 against 3 piece. When finally you get to speed HS, in my experience it falls perfectly together when the first of each group of 4 in RH matches the first note of the group of 3 in the LH.

When in the other areas you are at the level of Bach WTC/Scarlatti sonata's, Mozart sonata's, and romantic pieces of about the same level (like Schumann Arabeske), you will be able to deal with FI also. Just be patient and wait a couple of years.

Offline prins

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Re: So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu...
«Reply #6 on: October 14, 2008, 10:55:54 AM »
Further to my above post:
I meant Chopin waltz opus 64 no 2 in C# min which has fast runs in the right hand.
Another valuable piece (not 4 against 3, but 3 against 2) would be Scriabin prelude opus 11 no. 8 because it would also teach you a supple wrist in the LH. In this period Scriabin loved Chopins music very much and he has used similar idiom. It is easier than the FI though, also shorter.
There are also Chopin studies easier than the opus 10 and 25. These are called Trois Nouvelles Etudes, no. 1 has 3 against 4 rhythm (instead of 4 against 3). I have attached it.
And finally: Beethoven opus 79 last mvt has sections with sixteenth notes in RH against triplets in LH.


Offline hyrst

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Re: So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu...
«Reply #7 on: October 14, 2008, 10:59:58 AM »
The middle section is very typical Romantic melody on arpeggiated chords.  Anything Romantically expressive (Chopin waltzes, Mendelssohn, some of the various children's albums) - and a good management of arpeggios and dominant 7th chords are good foundations.  

The first section requires some independence between hands.  The Bach you plan is a good place to start for the RH.  The same running passages techique is used in some of the Inventions and frequent in Classical Sonatas/Sonatinas.    

The arpeggiated LH is also a very popular Romantic idea - found many places.

A simple beginning might be Burgmuller 100.16, 21 and 24.  These promote the flowing chord movements.  From the same opus, no.7 helps with defining a voice in the middle of chords.  Really there are many pieces that will give you basic skills for FI.

About the speed, much of the apparent speed is an illusion created by the cross-rhythms.  If you come to the place of being able to play a number of the planned Sonatinas, you will have enough tempo to begin FI.  Good luck.

Personally, I find the Chopin new etude (number 1) with cross-rhythms easier than FI because it is more consistent and more predictable.  It might be worth a try when you are ready.


Offline db05

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Re: So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu...
«Reply #8 on: October 14, 2008, 02:11:52 PM »
Noted.

I say, if you want to play Fantaisie-impromptu, then just jump in and learn it. It will make a good technical exercise at whatever speed you play it at.

allthumbs

This is interesting! So just jump right in?!?! If I treat it as a technical exercise, a few minutes everyday, would it hurt? That would take the edge off it, since it's no longer a piece I have to play for *insert recital/ exam date here*, but a technical exercise. Wouldn't that take off musicality though?  ???


how about:
some Heller opus 47 studies - some Heller opus 46 (almost virtuoso studies are at the end of the book) - perhaps Chopin waltz opus 64 in C sharp minor - then Chopin FI.

I think there is no need for a specific 4 against 3 piece. When finally you get to speed HS, in my experience it falls perfectly together when the first of each group of 4 in RH matches the first note of the group of 3 in the LH.

When in the other areas you are at the level of Bach WTC/Scarlatti sonata's, Mozart sonata's, and romantic pieces of about the same level (like Schumann Arabeske), you will be able to deal with FI also. Just be patient and wait a couple of years.

It seems I'm not following the plan I described above anymore... And my studies are a bit uneven - different levels, more classical than anything, and no romantic/ modern at all! The "same level" thing doesn't quite apply anymore, and am not doing exams so I'm not sure really, which piece is harder than the other.

I have some Heller books, Op. 47 and 45 (no 46 though). Got the Chopin Waltz and Etudes, and the Beethoven... Since you mention Waltz in C#, it's similar to Minute Waltz, right? Which is more interesting?



btw,
Actually, I have no problem regarding FI or Romantic pieces as yet since I'm never assigned any. But the classical sontainas are taking a toll on me technically and musically. Speedspeedspeed. 16th note runs... ARGH!!! Then I work on Bach First Lessons, it's ironic that I don't even have Inventions yet...  :P

This is just for further planning. The one I posted (long-term plan) seems to be falling apart in a way I didn't expect. Lol!
I'm sinking like a stone in the sea,
I'm burning like a bridge for your body

Offline allthumbs

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Re: So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu...
«Reply #9 on: October 14, 2008, 06:40:40 PM »
Noted.

This is interesting! So just jump right in?!?! If I treat it as a technical exercise, a few minutes everyday, would it hurt? That would take the edge off it, since it's no longer a piece I have to play for *insert recital/ exam date here*, but a technical exercise. Wouldn't that take off musicality though?  ???

Nothing that you play on the piano that challenges you technically will hurt you, provided that you are using sound and careful practice methods.

As far as musicality goes, that is something that is usually worked on to more success once a piece's technical aspects are conquered and one is working towards mastery.


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Offline ramseytheii

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Re: So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu...
«Reply #10 on: October 15, 2008, 09:12:17 PM »
I don't know what the prerequisites are, but I notice a lot of people seem to think all individual problems in any given piece require an "etude."  You will most likely not find any other piece that has the note groupings that this one has, and since they are so repetitious, why on earth would you need a separate etude?  Just play the fantasie-impromptu, for goodness sake. 

Wanting to have an etude for every little thing that pops up, is actually just a way to avoid the problem, because the mentality is that if you can master this in some hypothetical etude, you won't have to practice it in the real piece.  Just sit down, work hard, and get it right.

Walter Ramsey



Offline db05

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Re: So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu...
«Reply #11 on: November 04, 2008, 04:49:31 AM »
I don't know what the prerequisites are, but I notice a lot of people seem to think all individual problems in any given piece require an "etude."  You will most likely not find any other piece that has the note groupings that this one has, and since they are so repetitious, why on earth would you need a separate etude?  Just play the fantasie-impromptu, for goodness sake. 

Wanting to have an etude for every little thing that pops up, is actually just a way to avoid the problem, because the mentality is that if you can master this in some hypothetical etude, you won't have to practice it in the real piece.  Just sit down, work hard, and get it right.

Walter Ramsey

This brings up an interesting topic: when are you ready to learn piece X?

Some people say you have to learn the entire Hanon series, or this and that book from Czerny. I don't know if this is all BS or not. But I think waiting 10 years to play a piece such as FI is BS. And when can you say you have mastered the technical and can now work on musical aspect?

Am torn between 2 schools of thought:

1. learn a few relatively simple pieces. know them like the back of your hand. master them up to performance level. play in public several times to be sure. only then, work on a few more pieces, only one notch harder. every piece learnt will be part of reperoire that can be played anytime even when sick, because you're already sick of them by this time.

2. learn several pieces at once. different levels and types of difficulty. don't expect to master all of them. when you learn a piece, try to perform it despite not having total confidence. this will take off perfectionism and prepare for learning/ performing on demand. no piece can be played anytime without physical/mental warm-up. but these are technically demanding pieces; it's understandable.
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Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu...
«Reply #12 on: November 04, 2008, 07:57:18 AM »
All depends HOW you want to play this piece. If you want to play it just 'okay', just jump into the piece, start slowly and see how far you can get and hope you can crank it out with a decent accuracy/speed/musicality ratio.

However, if you do want to play this piece like you hear it on the CD, you need very good supportive technique, wich means having played a wide range of etudes.

I dont really know wich non-etude pieces you could try out first for the feeling. Maybe Chopin's preludes no 5 and no 8.

gyzzzmo
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Offline db05

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Re: So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu...
«Reply #13 on: November 04, 2008, 09:04:12 AM »
All depends HOW you want to play this piece. If you want to play it just 'okay', just jump into the piece, start slowly and see how far you can get and hope you can crank it out with a decent accuracy/speed/musicality ratio.

However, if you do want to play this piece like you hear it on the CD, you need very good supportive technique, wich means having played a wide range of etudes.

I'm more of a perfectionist type of student, so much that it may be a fault. If I go on learning piano as I do right now, it might take 10 years before I get around to it. 5 at least. But that's just me.

See my reply just below yours.
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I'm burning like a bridge for your body

Offline loonbohol

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Re: So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu...
«Reply #14 on: November 06, 2008, 04:33:00 AM »
I have performed Fantasie Impromptu and it is just hard in the first part.
The next is just easy.
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Offline rhpatten

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Re: So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu...
«Reply #15 on: December 15, 2008, 05:41:13 PM »

Hello there,
In case you or other readers have not yet got into the F.I., here are some thoughts. 

I agree with those who say that there are not "etudes" which would prepare for this piece.  In a way it is its own etude.  However, Brahms loved writing 3's against 2's and indeed 4's, so one of the easier Brahms pieces might be an idea. 

The best technical practice preparation is to play every possible scale and every arpeggio many times.  Recently I went to a new teacher who encouraged me to do this: and the results were dramatic!!

Then treat the 4 against 3 situation as an exercise in written theory, in order to decide exactly where each note falls.  This involves subdividing each beat into "twelfths".   Once you have worked this out, play a few fragments with both hands exactly thus,  incredibly slowly.  As if you are balancing, say, 4 MINIMS against 3 MINIMS each time.   This will help to lock the patterns into their exact place, like cogs engaging into a piece of smooth machinery.

Finally, practice each hand separately, many, many times.

After this it will not be long before the urge to put the hands together becomes irresistable.   And then you will be started ...  if not finished.

The bits I find most difficult are:  (i)  the descending RH sequences around Bar 8 etc,   and (ii)  the free-form 7-tuplet at bar 60.   Can anyone else help?   I have been trying to play this piece for getting on for 50 years ..........




Offline javacisnotrecognized

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Re: So you want to learn fantaisie-impromptu...
«Reply #16 on: December 15, 2008, 06:14:43 PM »
the free-form 7-tuplet at bar 60.

You don't have to play it exactly in time you know . .