Octave tremolo?

[fuoco]

Hi all, newbie to the board here

I'm having some problems with the first movement of Beethoven's op.13 sonata (Pathetique). The tremolos are killing me!

My left arm gets very sore after playing the first subject through and after playing through the movement my arm feels like a lead weight. It's frustrating because it's holding my tempo back.

My technique is really just holding my hand firm, and rotating my lower arm whilst trying to stay in contact with the keys as I play.  My teacher suggests endurance training but I'm pretty sure there's something fundamentally wrong here.  Oh yeah, one other thing that might be important, my right hand can play similar passages (development section for example) roughly 50% faster and with no dedicated practice... really annoying

Any suggestions?

Fuoco

[donjuan]

I avoided the Pathetique sonata for the exact reason why you write.  I would like to play it some day- when I find out how to utilize energy and not play on pure adrenaline.  maybe some day ill find a way.  Let me know if you ever do..
donjuan

[JK]

I found that the key to playing those tremolos was to play them quite lightly and not to try to work too hard, they don't actually have to be that loud. Also practising slowly in order to build up stamina is the best way to develop this.

Hope this helped a bit, good luck!

[faulty_damper]

What's a tremolo?  You mean the changing bass notes an octave apart?

If that's the case, then the problem is poor technique.  I used to do it the fingers way.  Terrible and uneffective technique.  Now I use my arms to do the tremolo.  Much better technique.

Don't use your fingers to play the keys, use your entire arm.

[fuoco]

JK: Thanks for the suggestion, I do believe playing lightly is important, which is why I alway try to stay in contact with the key tops (save the most climactic sections), this produces a quieter tone and saves me energy, just not enough it seems

Faulty_Damper: You misunderstand, I do use my arm to play the tremolo, my fingers stay still in the process (I believe I said this in the parent post). My problem is muscular fatigue, I can get my allegro tempo I just can't keep it (or rather can only just get the end of the movement).

Fuoco

[JK]

I've just thought of something else you could try. When you play the tremolos don't think of every note as being induvidual but try to feel them in terms of bars. In other words create longer notes out of the shorter ones, try to think of the tremolos as being just one long sustained note.

Hope this helps, if not just keep at it!

[nerd]

JK's idea could work. A way to practice this could be to clearly accentuate the first note of the group (eg. four or eight 1/8 notes) and to play the rest of them very lightly. Then later you make them more even.

[edouard]

Fuoco,
i would define a 'simple tremolo' simply as a trill in a wider position. Whilst a 'double tremolo' would be a tremolo with two notes played simultaneously on one or both sides of the trill.
Hanon does not help you with this, as there is a long piece of tremolo, but nowhere does he explain how to do it. Does he help with anything?? (another question..)

these tremolos must not tire you out! I can tell you some things I would try, by all means try it, reject it, approve it, whatever works!
-finger articulation plays little or no part in this, rather its a sort of coming and going movement of the arm or wrist that is communicated to the fingers
-don't practise the whole passage, cut it up into manageable sections, try small groups of fast notes
-don't practise F, practise p or pp, you can add the volume later
-practise only left hand, dont practise the passage hands together if your left hand feels like lead, because that wont change much
-group notes by rhythms of 3 so as to change the accent each time, and then by 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. And start on top note and then on bottom note.
-i wouldn't exaggerate any movements
-there are similar passages in many pieces, so its worth mastering this. off the top of my head, Op27/2 Presto left hand tremolo, Debussy Prelude 'Vent d'Ouest' right hand tremolo, Liszt 'Vision', 'Chasse Neige': tremolos everywhere!

good luck, hope i did not go too much off topic!
ed

[thierry13]

I'm currently making this piece with my teacher. Well i'll have difficulty to explain this cause i speak french(canada,quebec),and i dont really know the english language for music,but,i'll try.Well you make the two notes you make a tremolo with in one hit and at the same tempo than the first hand,so there's an eight at each time if played in 4 beats,and 2 eight by time if played in 2 beats. I don't know if you understand clearly,but this could help to make it at the real speed without beeing so tired   ... hoping you understand what i was trying to tell  

[donjuan]

I'm currently making this piece with my teacher. Well i'll have difficulty to explain this cause i speak french(canada,quebec),and i dont really know the english language for music,but,i'll try.Well you make the two notes you make a tremolo with in one hit and at the same tempo than the first hand,so there's an eight at each time if played in 4 beats,and 2 eight by time if played in 2 beats. I don't know if you understand clearly,but this could help to make it at the real speed without beeing so tired   ... hoping you understand what i was trying to tell  

Greetings from Alberta!!!
donjuan

[faulty_damper]

I don't have problems with tremolos at all.  Are you using enough wrist motion?

Where does your muscles tire out?  That would be more telling of what the problem is.

[fuoco]

Thanks for all the replies, you've all given me some great ideas.

Faulty_Damper: I get a muscular ache in the thickest part of my forearm, which can turn into cramp if I go on too long or I don't warm up to it properly. I also feel some tension in the sides of my wrist just past the joint.

Fuoco

[faulty_damper]

Top or bottom of the forearm?  If it's the top, then you are tensing your muscles too much to keep your fingers extended which may mean that your hand is playing to stiffly.

[johnreef]

I'll be a black sheep and say strenghth comes into play!!!!
Rotation is good for power, inefficient for speed --- try rotating your arm without the keyboard to see how quickly tiring this is.... Have a strongly developed pinkie and these tremolos will be much easier.

[johnreef]

----->Top or bottom of the forearm?  If it's the top, then you are tensing your muscles too much to keep your fingers extended which may mean that your hand is playing to stiffly.  


Actually, the muscles that extend your fingers are located in the back of your hand -- the muscles that lift your fingers are in the back of the forarm...

[goalevan]

What you can also try is playing the piece but with a lot of concentration into keeping your left hand as relaxed and smooth as possible - play the notes fairly soft but devote most of your thought to eliminating any excess energy you're putting into your left hand. Seemed to help me on those tremolos anyways.. (but I haven't played the whole piece yet).

[Saturn]

fuoco:

I've never really had a problem with the tremolo.  However, try this:

Go to the piano, and play just the tremolo with your left hand, as you would do it in the Pathetique.  Don't add the right hand.  While you're doing the tremolo, take your right hand and feel your 234 fingers.  Are they tense?  Feel the bottom of your wrist.  What do you feel?  Tendons popping out?

You should be able to identify the problem quickly doing that.  Eliminate excess tension in those other fingers and in your hand.  Your hand should be relaxed (though not TOO much), and your forearm rotation should be providing the weight necessary for the 1-5 fingers to "lean" into the key.

[faulty_damper]

Actually, the muscles that extend your fingers are located in the back of your hand -- the muscles that lift your fingers are in the back of the forarm...

Please elaborate.  I don't see a difference in my muscle movements when I extend or lift my fingers; they are both the same.  I also don't see/feel muscles at the back fo my hand.

[xvimbi]

I'll be a black sheep and say strenghth comes into play!!!!
Rotation is good for power, inefficient for speed --- try rotating your arm without the keyboard to see how quickly tiring this is.... Have a strongly developed pinkie and these tremolos will be much easier.

johnreef, here you go again... Rotating the forearm requires muscular action in the upper arm! fuoco has fatigue in the forearm, so the problem must lie downstream, i.e. in the hand. Rotating the arm does not seem to be the problem. As usual, unnecessary tension is the cause of the problem. I assume that the hand is too stiff. Use the minimum amount of tension to keep the hand as rigid as necessary (but not more). In other words, relax as much as possible without going limp. There is nothing wrong with using the thumb and pinky to give it some extra boost, but you will need excellent coordination to pull this off at high speed and control the sound. There should really be no difference, what concerns the hand, between the tremolo and octave or chord playing: the hand remains fairly static while upper arm and forearm steer it to where it needs to be. If you can play chords in rapid succession without getting tension, you should be able to play the tremolo.

[johnreef]

johnreef, here you go again... Rotating the forearm requires muscular action in the upper arm! fuoco has fatigue in the forearm, so the problem must lie downstream, i.e. in the hand.

That's what I said.

[johnreef]

Please elaborate.  I don't see a difference in my muscle movements when I extend or lift my fingers; they are both the same.  I also don't see/feel muscles at the back fo my hand.

Perhaps I am just being too picky with terminology. Each finger (the thumb is slightly different) has three knuckles -- one that joins the finger to the hand, and two others on the finger itself. The muscle that raises the fingers at the joint connecting the finger to the hand is located in the forearm; the muscles extending the fingers at the other two joints are in the hand itself.

[xvimbi]

Please elaborate.  I don't see a difference in my muscle movements when I extend or lift my fingers; they are both the same.  I also don't see/feel muscles at the back fo my hand.

Correction: johnreef is partially right on this one. Finger extension is accomplished by muscles in both the forearm as well as in the hand

Perhaps I am just being too picky with terminology. Each finger (the thumb is slightly different) has three knuckles -- one that joins the finger to the hand, and two others on the finger itself. The muscle that raises the fingers at the joint connecting the finger to the hand is located in the forearm; the muscles extending the fingers at the other two joints are in the hand itself.

The more I am incubating these statements, the more I am getting upset at myself that I didn't catch this earlier. Finger extension is mainly done by muscles in the forearm. Flexing is assisted by muscles in the hand. johnreef, you are not picky with your terminology, you are outright inventing new meanings for common words   Check out https://www.dartmouth.edu/~anatomy/wrist-hand/muscles/

[johnreef]

Correction: johnreef is partially right on this one. Finger extension is accomplished by muscles in both the forearm as well as in the hand

The more I am incubating these statements, the more I am getting upset at myself that I didn't catch this earlier. Finger extension is mainly done by muscles in the forearm. Flexing is assisted by muscles in the hand. johnreef, you are not picky with your terminology, you are outright inventing new meanings for common words   Check out https://www.dartmouth.edu/~anatomy/wrist-hand/muscles/

No....you're misunderstanding me becuase I'm too lazy to write clearly     There are 3 joints in each finger. Depending on which joint we are talking about, both both extending and flexing involve both muscles in the forearm and in the hand. In extending: First knuckle (the one where the finger meets the hand) is raised by forearm muscles, the other two are extended by hand muscles. In flexing, the opposite is true -- the first joint (where the finger meets the hand) is flexed by muscles in the hand, the other two by muscles in the forearm.

[faulty_damper]

Please don't make me dissect my own hand.  :p

Would you send me yours?

[xvimbi]

No....you're misunderstanding me becuase I'm too lazy to write clearly  

Well, then don't complain if you get yelled at!
 

There are 3 joints in each finger. Depending on which joint we are talking about, both both extending and flexing involve both muscles in the forearm and in the hand. In extending: First knuckle (the one where the finger meets the hand) is raised by forearm muscles, the other two are extended by hand muscles. In flexing, the opposite is true -- the first joint (where the finger meets the hand) is flexed by muscles in the hand, the other two by muscles in the forearm.

Repeating it doesn't make it right. The EXTENSOR DIGITORUM, located in the forearm, extends all joints of the finger. The EXTENSOR INIDICIS, also located in the forearm, extends all joints of the index finger. The EXTENSOR DIGITI MINIMI (funny name!), you guessed it, also located in the forearm, extends all joints of the little finger. Likewise, thumb motion (abduction and extension) is also executed by a set of muscles in the forearm (abductor pollicis longus, extensor pollicis brevis, extensor pollicis longus). There are a lot of muscles in the hand that help in flexing, abduction and extension, but I don't have the time to write it all down. For a good overview, see your local anatomist, or the above mentioned website. Cheers!

[xvimbi]

Hi all, newbie to the board here

I'm having some problems with the first movement of Beethoven's op.13 sonata (Pathetique). The tremolos are killing me!

Don't you just love it when a thread gets hijacked and the original question gets shoved aside? So, did any of this babbling actually help you in the end?

[johnreef]

Well, then don't complain if you get yelled at!
 

---->Repeating it doesn't make it right.

Neither does using all capitol letters to name the muscles in latin.

----> The EXTENSOR DIGITORUM, located in the forearm, extends all joints of the finger. The EXTENSOR INIDICIS, also located in the forearm, extends all joints of the index finger. The EXTENSOR DIGITI MINIMI (funny name!), you guessed it, also located in the forearm, extends all joints of the little finger. Likewise, thumb motion (abduction and extension) is also executed by a set of muscles in the forearm (abductor pollicis longus, extensor pollicis brevis, extensor pollicis longus). There are a lot of muscles in the hand that help in flexing, abduction and extension, but I don't have the time to write it all down. For a good overview, see your local anatomist, or the above mentioned website. Cheers!

I guess I read about the hand anatomy from a different book than you did.

Still, most pianists (and piano teachers) know nothing at all about it.

[xvimbi]

I guess I read about the hand anatomy from a different book than you did.

Still, most pianists (and piano teachers) know nothing at all about it.

You are so right! It's a pity. Most pianists know only a little bit about the mechanics of a piano, but even less about the mechanics of the human body. But it is not easy to get good information. Anatomy books show where the muscles and the tendons are, but not what role they have in piano playing and, most importantly, how to avoid injuries. The best source I've come across so far is Thomas Mark's book "What every pianist needs to know about the body". It's a modern account that explains with cogent arguments why stretching is bad, why curled fingers are bad and more of the typical bad habits that plague many of us.
May your wrists stay supple!

[johnreef]

You are so right! It's a pity. Most pianists know only a little bit about the mechanics of a piano, but even less about the mechanics of the human body. But it is not easy to get good information. Anatomy books show where the muscles and the tendons are, but not what role they have in piano playing and, most importantly, how to avoid injuries. The best source I've come across so far is Thomas Mark's book "What every pianist needs to know about the body". It's a modern account that explains with cogent arguments why stretching is bad, why curled fingers are bad and more of the typical bad habits that plague many of us.
May your wrists stay supple!

I may have looked  at the Mark book at some point.....Have you checked out Otto Orttmann?

[xvimbi]

I may have looked  at the Mark book at some point.....Have you checked out Otto Orttmann?

Unfortunately not. It's out of print, and I couldn't find it so far. It's also a bit old. I'm banking on the fact that its knowledge has been assimilated and incorporated in more modern accounts.

[fuoco]

Don't you just love it when a thread gets hijacked and the original question gets shoved aside? So, did any of this babbling actually help you in the end?

Yes, thanks  

It seems that the problem was in my hand the whole time, I was so tense my middle fingers (234) were almost paralysed while playing the tremolo.  Anyway, after following all the advice and making use of some very careful, slow practice I'm back on track (making Glenn Gould's recording sound pedestrian in the process... almost ).

fuoco

[johnreef]

Unfortunately not. It's out of print, and I couldn't find it so far. It's also a bit old. I'm banking on the fact that its knowledge has been assimilated and incorporated in more modern accounts.

Try to have a look at it -- it is old, but marks an important step in the development of knowledge in piano technique...I don't think it has been incorporated as much as it should have -- many people still adhere to the principles it de-bunked!!! Are you at a university? If so, you probably could get it on loan from another library.