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Topic: need help on chopin 25/6 (Read 6559 times)

heha

PS Silver Member
Newbie
Posts: 9

need help on chopin 25/6

on: October 26, 2008, 04:00:17 AM

Hi guys, I came across this forum while searching for help on this etude and it sure looks a great place for advice

Anyway, I would like to ask anyone who can play this fluidly: what fingering do you use from bars 11-12 and bars 43-48?

especially for bars 43-46, I have tried different combinations for the top notes (while maintaining 1-2 for the bottom notes) but just couldn't find a combination to play them cleanly and evenly enough.

For the bars with descending thirds, how do I practise to get my thumb bounce across the keys quickly enough, or should I change my entire fingering altogether? Everytime I try to increase the tempo my thumb lets me down

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allthumbs

Sr. Member
Posts: 1632

Re: need help on chopin 25/6

Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008, 05:29:36 AM

For bars 11 & 12 try....

4354 3254 3543 2543 | 5454 5454 3545 4343
2132 1132 1321 1321 | 2121 2121 2121 2121

for bars 43 to 46

4343 4343 4343 4343 | 4343 4343 4343 4343 |
2121 2121 2121 2121 | 2121 2121 2121 2121 |

4343 4343 4343 4343 | 4343 4343 4343 4343 |
2121 2121 2121 2121 | 2121 2121 2121 2121 |

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richard black

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Posts: 2104

Re: need help on chopin 25/6

Reply #2 on: October 26, 2008, 12:54:23 PM

Quote

For the bars with descending thirds, how do I practise to get my thumb bounce across the keys quickly enough, or should I change my entire fingering altogether?

I don't bounce the thumb, I slide the 2nd finger from black key down to white - in fact I use that trick a lot in all kinds of pieces. Busoni called it the '6th finger technique'.

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Kassaa

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Posts: 1563

Re: need help on chopin 25/6

Reply #3 on: October 26, 2008, 03:01:39 PM

Quote from: richard black on October 26, 2008, 12:54:23 PM

I don't bounce the thumb, I slide the 2nd finger from black key down to white - in fact I use that trick a lot in all kinds of pieces. Busoni called it the '6th finger technique'.

Do you also do that with chromatic thirds? Chopins own fingering is the thumb on e-f and b-c.

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franzliszt2

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Posts: 979

Re: need help on chopin 25/6

Reply #4 on: October 26, 2008, 10:58:29 PM

I slide the thumb on all chromatic scales. It is legato, fast, and much easier. I don't know why Chopin didn't write that :-s Im sure he would not have a problem.

For bars 11-12 I use

4343435434343543
2121213212121321

I STRONGLY advise this fingering. It is much better than Chopin's. The bottom voice can be played perfectly legato at about twice the speed it should go, and you meed to keep the wrist and everything relaxed to allow the hand to go over. You have to practice slowly for a long time looking very carefully at the movements. Let the fingers do the work, and make sure the whole arm is totally free. I put my LH on the RH forearm, and feel to see if I am tense. If I am doing it correctly I can feel no movement in my forarm except for maybe the smallest of twitchs. Let the shoulder feel free...as if you are wiping dust of the keyboard.

You must NEVER group it is 4's. Play it in the following groups....3 3 2 2 3 2....then 6 2 2 3 2 then 8 2 3 2 etc..whith accents on the start of the groups...and remove an accent as you get more fluent so eventually you can play it with no accents. Practice it in triplets, sextuplets, 5's, 7's everything. Seperate voices.

Also look at the Godowsky studies, and you will find his LH thirds etude preliminary studies very helpful.

I don't think I ever have to use my thumb twice in a row once in this piece, I fingered it very carefully.

for 43-46 I use 42 31 the whole way. You can fake the legato, it is not possible to get it perfect, but you must create the illusion.

Cortot has great adive for this etude.

You just have to practice it everyday, for a long time.

Learn th RH with the LH as well alongside it....it will do the LH a lot of good!

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heha

PS Silver Member
Newbie
Posts: 9

Re: need help on chopin 25/6

Reply #5 on: October 27, 2008, 12:01:41 AM

Quote from: allthumbs on October 26, 2008, 05:29:36 AM

for bars 43 to 46

4343 4343 4343 4343 | 4343 4343 4343 4343 |
2121 2121 2121 2121 | 2121 2121 2121 2121 |

4343 4343 4343 4343 | 4343 4343 4343 4343 |
2121 2121 2121 2121 | 2121 2121 2121 2121 |

That is the suggested fingering on my score but I found that my repeated 4-3s have neither the power nor endurance to play the entire stretch. I could probably play it in a relaxed way if i keep a very light touch but the loudness and evenness still suffer.

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heha

PS Silver Member
Newbie
Posts: 9

Re: need help on chopin 25/6

Reply #6 on: October 27, 2008, 12:12:31 AM

Quote from: franzliszt2 on October 26, 2008, 10:58:29 PM

I slide the thumb on all chromatic scales. It is legato, fast, and much easier. I don't know why Chopin didn't write that :-s Im sure he would not have a problem.

For bars 11-12 I use

4343435434343543
2121213212121321

I STRONGLY advise this fingering. It is much better than Chopin's. The bottom voice can be played perfectly legato at about twice the speed it should go, and you meed to keep the wrist and everything relaxed to allow the hand to go over. You have to practice slowly for a long time looking very carefully at the movements. Let the fingers do the work, and make sure the whole arm is totally free. I put my LH on the RH forearm, and feel to see if I am tense. If I am doing it correctly I can feel no movement in my forarm except for maybe the smallest of twitchs. Let the shoulder feel free...as if you are wiping dust of the keyboard.

You must NEVER group it is 4's. Play it in the following groups....3 3 2 2 3 2....then 6 2 2 3 2 then 8 2 3 2 etc..whith accents on the start of the groups...and remove an accent as you get more fluent so eventually you can play it with no accents. Practice it in triplets, sextuplets, 5's, 7's everything. Seperate voices.

Also look at the Godowsky studies, and you will find his LH thirds etude preliminary studies very helpful.

I don't think I ever have to use my thumb twice in a row once in this piece, I fingered it very carefully.

for 43-46 I use 42 31 the whole way. You can fake the legato, it is not possible to get it perfect, but you must create the illusion.

Cortot has great adive for this etude.

You just have to practice it everyday, for a long time.

Learn th RH with the LH as well alongside it....it will do the LH a lot of good!

Wow thanks, you're the man. I knew thumb-bouncing was kind of impossible, now I feel I'm going somewhere

Do you mean sliding your index for the chromatic thirds? I use the sliding index but can't see how i can slide my thumb.

As for 43-46, I noticed some professional pianists on youtube seem to switch between 52 31 and 42 31 throughout the passage maybe to minimize strain but if 42 31 all the way works for you I'll try it for an extended period. Thanks!

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illtemperedclavier

PS Silver Member
Newbie
Posts: 1

Re: need help on chopin 25/6

Reply #7 on: March 10, 2010, 11:36:32 PM

This thread is looking a bit defunct lately, but such a timelessly difficult work always needs additional input, no?

Anyway, looking here helped me immensely on this piece and I figured I'd share the wealth a little.

On measures 11 & 13 I had to get a bit creative. One very skillful German pianist who had played it previously suggested this fingering to me:

5-4-3-5-4-3-5-4-3-5-4-3-2-1-4-3
3-2-1-3-2-1-3-2-1-3-2-1-1-2-2-1

The bold fingering is played by left hand. Cheating? Maybe. Does it work? Beautifully.

This fingering worked great for him, but for my own playing I modified it since I personally felt that the melodic line was getting compromised due to the uneven groups of three. The fingering I currently use and with which I am very happy is as follows:

5-3-4-3-4-3-5-4-3-5-4-3-2-1-4-3
2-1-2-1-2-1-3-2-1-3-2-1-1-2-2-1

It takes a little bit of rhythms practice (by groups of five and seven) for this to become comfortable, but once it is in tempo it is the most musically satisfying fingering I have yet tried (and I've tried many on this part!!!)

On measures 43-46 I alternate:
5-3-5-3-4-3-4-3
2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1 etc.

It is important to not focus on the right hand passages to the point that they become heavy and hard to play in a fast tempo. After all, the real musical substance is in the left hand - but it is so easy to get distracted by the phenomenal difficulty in the right hand! Once you get closer to actually performing it, focus on making a beautiful statement in the left hand (do harmonic analysis, play block chords, etc.) and letting the right hand run by itself, as capricious and inconsequential as a spring zephyr. Best of luck to all who attempt this etude!

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