To play Chopin or not to play...?

[frank_48]

hello people! 

I'm slightly confused at the moment, not exactly sure on what to do with my studies from chopin. see, i have the goal to learn all of his pieces in the next 15-20 years. but from a begginers point,  i am not sure if i am quite ready to actually start this process, (started playing a year ago) i have learnt about 4-5 pieces of his so far, but they were easy.

anyway. i was thinking, to actually not play any chopin for 1 whole year and get my technique up to scratch, then go ahead. i have plenty of other pieces to occupy me so thats not a problem, but on the other hand, is there a need to do so? i was under the impression that if i came back to his works after a year they would be much eaiser to learn and play. but id like to hear what other people think. i guess all the later pieces wouldnt really make any difference, its the preludes and waltzes i am concerned about.

heres the list if anyone's interested.

i know this looks ridiculously structured, but thats just me

im guessing it should take about 12-18 months for each section, 3 years for the etudes give or take. (small works are connected to the preludes)

Small Works:       

Cantabile
Largo

Polonaises:

Opus, Posth.

Polonaise in G Minor
Polonaise in B Flat Major
Polonaise in A Flat Major
Polonaise in G Sharp Minor
Polonaise in B Flat Minor
Polonaise in G Flat Major

Preludes:

Op.28 No.7
Op.28 No.4
Op.28 No.6
Op.28 No.20
Op.28 No.9
Op.28 No.2
Op.28 No.15
Op.28 No.13

Waltzes:

Op.69 No.1
Op.69 No.2
Waltz No.18 in E Flat
Waltz in A minor
Op.34 No.2
Op.64 No.3
Op.64 No.2
Op.70 No.2
Waltz No.16 in A Flat
Op.64 No.1

Mazurkas:

Op.6 No.1
Op.6 No.2
Op.6 No.3
Op.6 No.4
Op.7 No.1
Op.7 No.2
Op.7 No.3
Op.7 No.4
Op.17 No.1
Op.17 No.2
Op.17 No.3
Op.17 No.4
Op.24 No.1
Op.24 No.2
Op.24 No.3
Op.24 No.4
Op.30 No.1
Op.30 No.2
Op.30 No.3
Op.30 No.4

Nocturnes:

Op.9 No.2
Op.15 No.2
Op.27 No.2
Op.32 No.2
Op.37 No.1
Op.48 No.1
Op.55 No.1
Op.62 No.2
Op.72 No.1
Nocturne in C# Minor

Nouvelle Etudes:

No.25
No.26
No.27

Miscellaneous:
 
Funeral March
Berceuse
Fantaisie Impromptu
Andante Spianato Polonaise
Barcarolle
Fantaisie Op.49

Mazurkas:

Op.33 No.1
Op.33 No.2
Op.33 No.3
Op.33 No.4
Op.41 No.1
Op.41 No.2
Op.41 No.3
Op.41 No.4
Op.50 No.1
Op.50 No.2
Op.50 No.3
Op.56 No.1
Op.56 No.2
Op.56 No.3
Op.59 No.1
Op.59 No.2
Op.59 No.3
Op.63 No.1
Op.63 No.2
Op.63 No.3
Op.67 No.1
Op.67 No.2
Op.67 No.3
Op.67 No.4
Op.68 No.1
Op.68 No.2
Op.68 No.3
Op.68 No.4

Nocturnes:

Nocturne in C Minor
Op.9 No.1
Op.9 No.3
Op.15 No.1
Op.15 No.3
Op.27 No.1
Op.32 No.1
Op.37 No.2
Op.48 No.2
Op.55 No.2
Op.62 No.1


Waltzes:

Op.18, Grand Valse
Op.34 No.1
Op.34 No.3
Op.42 in A Flat
Op.70 No.1
Op.70 No.3
Waltz No.14 in E Minor
Waltz No.15 in E Major
Waltz No.17 in E Flat Major

Preludes:

Op.28 No.1
Op.28 No.3
Op.28 No.5
Op.28 No.8
Op.28 No.10
Op.28 No.11
Op.28 No.12
Op.28 No.14
Op.28 No.16
Op.28 No.17
Op.28 No.18
Op.28 No.19
Op.28 No.21
Op.28 No.22
Op.28 No.23
Op.28 No.24
Prelude in C# Minor, Op.45
Prelude in A  Flat Major

Impromptus:

Op.29
Op.36
Op.51

Ballades:

Op.23 No.1
Op.38 No.2
Op.47 No.3
Op.52 No.4

Polonaises:

Op.22 in E Flat
 Op.26 No.1
Op.26 No.2
Op.40 No.1
Op.40 No.2
Op.44 in F Sharp
Op.53 in A Flat
Op.61 in A Flat
Op.71 No.1
Op.71 No.2
Op.71 No.3

Etudes:

Op.10 No.3
Op.25 No.2
Op.10 No.6
Op.25 No.1
Op.10 No.9
Op.25 No.9
Op.25 No.7
Op.10 No.12
Op.10 No.5
Op.10 No.10
Op.25 No.5
Op.10 No.11
Op.10 No.1
Op.10 No.4
Op.25 No.4
Op.10 No.7
Op.25 No.3
Op.10 No.8
Op.25 No.8
Op.25 No.10
Op.25 No.5
Op.25 No.11
Op.25 No.12
Op.10 No.2
Op.25 No.6

Piano Concerti:

No.1 in E Minor
No.2 in F Minor

Scherzi:

Op.20 No.1
Op.31 No.2
Op.39 No.3
Op.54 No.4

Sonatas:

Op.4 No.1
Op.35 No.2
Op.58 No.3






btw, does anyone have any suggestions on what should be moved up or down on the list?

[shortyshort]

Good luck.

[healdie]

wow you acctually want to learn everything that chopin wrote, well first of all i do admire your dedication, i don't think i would have the attention span or the will to learn everything like this.

so i do wish you good luck but will you be learning anything by any other composers? or is it just Chopin that you are interested in?

[m19834]

What a great list and it's a bit of an eye-candy for anybody who is interested in this sort of thing ... hee hee.  Firstly, I would say it does really matter what your other goals are going to be, but also, it's not truly possible for us to know if you will personally find his music easier in a year without seeing/hearing you play as you are now.  So, I am afraid I can't be of much help there.  In general though, I would say, why wait ?  Especially if you have already played some and found them to be easy for you ...

I have to say, this reminds me of some of my repertoire goals ... I have spent probably 6ish years in paralysis in being unable to truly start on my goals, or if I would start on some I would feel like I am neglecting the others (and the other composers would get jealous ).  I probably have had too many and had wished I could somehow just hoover them into myself ... but alas, it still requires me to take every little footstep. One thing I have realized though is that it is one thing to set intellectual goals, and it is another to fulfill the heart.  And, I think life is much nicer when the heart and the intellect are not at war but are instead working together toward a common goal.

[j.s. bach the 534th]

huh. So are you going to work on nothing else but Chopin during this huge process?

this really does remind me of myself. I once said I was going to learn every keyboard piece by Bach, but then I quickly decided that would take too long and make it so I wouldn't be able to learn enough from other composers. *sigh* Life is too short...If it was possible to learn every single keyboard piece ever written by Chopin, Bach, Beethoven, and a few others in one lifetime, I would try, but there is just too much..

anyway, back to you...like K said, it is hard to tell whether or not you should wait for a year without knowing how you play now. But if you really did find the first few relatively easy, I'm not sure spending a year on other stuff will satisfy you and give you a good enough challenge.

[richard black]

You started playing a year ago.... Look, I started at the age of 7 and was a very quick learner, I now (30-odd years later) play for part of my living, I can sight read for the national team and have a reasonably fluid technique, but there are works by Chopin I accept I'll never play to public concert standard. If I were you I would put Chopin away for 10 years and practice damned hard in the mean time, with the aid of a good teacher. Best of luck!

[j.s. bach the 534th]

don't listen to richard black. I believe you can accomplish all of this with enough hard work. Hell, I've been playing for 7 months maybe, self-taught, and I can play a decent-sized portion of Chopin Waltz Op. 64 No. 1  If you think you can do it, DO it. That's what I did, and it worked.

[frank_48]

huh. So are you going to work on nothing else but Chopin during this huge process?

no, not at all, there are many other composers i have in mind to add to my repertoire, Chopin is the only one who i wish to play all pieces from

as for richards comment though. i think that with enough dedication, in due time any piece could be able to be learned and be able to perform well. think positive.

and thankyou everyone else for their positive replies 

[eric_wong1387]

Richard is right on the mark here.

I know it's very appealing to think if you try hard enough, you'll get there.  Unfortunately, alot of the time that is not the truth.   If it were, great pianists would not be as rare as they are.

Sometimes life catches up with you, and you may not have as much time to practice as you would prefer.  Or you'll simply hit a glass ceiling in your abilities.

Don't get me wrong, I admire your enthusiasm, but I just think you'll have to be prepared to scale down on your goals as you actually learn some of these works and realize just how much it takes to master them.

I don't have the experience that Richard has yet, being only 22, but my piano education has followed a similar path to his so far.   And I completely agree with his assessment of this situation.

The advanced Chopin works are much harder than most beginners can realistically comprehend.   It does not scale up linearly as your plan seems to suggest, it is more like an exponential curve.  If you can learn a Waltz within a year of starting, that does not mean you can do an Etude in another 4-5.   For some people it might, but for others it could be 10-15.  And I notice you even have the concerti on your list - it's safe to say many of us will never get there (I probably won't).    By following your plan as it is, you'll probably eventually hit a point where you will be delayed severely or even indefinitely.

Please don't think we're putting you down, people like us genuinely wish to help.

[frank_48]

Richard is right on the mark here.

I know it's very appealing to think if you try hard enough, you'll get there.  Unfortunately, alot of the time that is not the truth.   If it were, great pianists would not be as rare as they are.

Sometimes life catches up with you, and you may not have as much time to practice as you would prefer.  Or you'll simply hit a glass ceiling in your abilities.

Don't get me wrong, I admire your enthusiasm, but I just think you'll have to be prepared to scale down on your goals as you actually learn some of these works and realize just how much it takes to master them.

I don't have the experience that Richard has yet, being only 22, but my piano education has followed a similar path to his so far.   And I completely agree with his assessment of this situation.

The advanced Chopin works are much harder than most beginners can realistically comprehend.   By following your plan as it is, you'll probably eventually hit a point where you will be delayed severely or even indefinitely.

Please don't think we're putting you down, people like us genuinely wish to help.

i told my plans to an aemb examiner last week and she described it as "difficult but not impossible" i dont see it as a put down. i appriciate your comments, although realistically thinking, if the time comes where everything becomes overwelming or life's little annoyances get in the way, at least i should try give priority to my favourite pieces. i would hate for this to actually happen though.

which pieces are you specificly talking about, the ballades, polonaises, sonatas and scherzo's im assuming?

if i could pick one each of the above and learn, i'd still be happy.

[eric_wong1387]

which pieces are you specificly talking about, the ballades, polonaises, sonatas and scherzo's im assuming?

if i could pick one each of the above and learn, i'd still be happy.

Yeah pretty much, and also the harder Etudes and Preludes, the Barcarolle and the Fantasy in f.

[m19834]

Well, yes, obviously you are going to want to progress through the list in a way that builds your skill as you go.  But, you would want to also have some other things going, too, to help you build the necessary skill for the rest.  I think though that having goals like this is not a "leisurely" activity, it's not a "hobby" ... you will need to really make time for this and probably sacrifice other things.  So, the "why" behind you doing it is pretty important, I think.  Also, most definitely expect that you will need to adjust your schedules as you go.

Also, you don't necessarily have to learn entire pieces at once.  You can take manageable sections from several pieces, and work your way up to the ones that are too much for now.  If you have large goals like this, I think it's a good idea to treat it as an entity of sorts, almost like it's one huge piece of music that you are pulling bits from over years (and you will find that there are similar musical ideas within pieces, so you actually start to "gain" on the mass by learning one section of one pieces that relates to another section of another piece).  The downside to that is that you will have to wait longer for the payoff of playing an entire piece (at least that can start to wear a bit on me).  Ideally, the process would include the staggering "completion" of pieces so that you are actually accumlating entire pieces as you go.

[thierry13]

don't listen to richard black. I believe you can accomplish all of this with enough hard work. Hell, I've been playing for 7 months maybe, self-taught, and I can play a decent-sized portion of Chopin Waltz Op. 64 No. 1  If you think you can do it, DO it. That's what I did, and it worked.

So, you're telling us that somebody who has been playing for seven months and can not even play a simple waltz completly knows more on the matter of the complete chopin piano works than somebody who plays piano for a living? Gimme a damn f***ing break. Ho yeah, and DO listen to richard black.

[frank_48]

Well, yes, obviously you are going to want to progress through the list in a way that builds your skill as you go.  But, you would want to also have some other things going, too, to help you build the necessary skill for the rest.  I think though that having goals like this is not a "leisurely" activity, it's not a "hobby" ... you will need to really make time for this and probably sacrifice other things.  So, the "why" behind you doing it is pretty important, I think.  Also, most definitely expect that you will need to adjust your schedules as you go.

the "why" would be very simple, i just love the music. for me, just listening to it isnt enough. i want to be able to play it.

before piano all i was doing was playing xbox 360/ps3 all day. really getting nowhere.
2 weeks after i got my piano i made the decision to give up gaming for good. so i can fully dedicate myself to music.

[javacisnotrecognized]

Are you going to play them how it's written on the score, or make your own changes at you see fit? Are you going to merely learn the notes, or conduct a detailed analysis on every, or at least some, of the pieces?

Do you improvise? Are you going to start improvising in the style of Chopin ? 

[frank_48]

Are you going to play them how it's written on the score, or make your own changes at you see fit? Are you going to merely learn the notes, or conduct a detailed analysis on every, or at least some, of the pieces?

Do you improvise? Are you going to start improvising in the style of Chopin ? 

i buy urtext versions of chopin pieces because i want exactly what he wrote, so it would be pointless changing notes here and there. and yes i do analyse pieces before i play them.

dont really improvise on pieces, my teacher frowns upon that.

[eric_wong1387]

before piano all i was doing was playing xbox 360/ps3 all day. really getting nowhere.
2 weeks after i got my piano i made the decision to give up gaming for good. so i can fully dedicate myself to music.

That's a little extreme I think.  I'm still an avid gamer, but I've managed okay.  And I still have school (not a music major) or work.  Depends on what you want of course, but a good balance is better.   There'll always be times when you get tired from practicing.

[shinerl]

That's a little extreme I think.  I'm still an avid gamer, but I've managed okay.  And I still have school (not a music major) or work.  Depends on what you want of course, but a good balance is better.   There'll always be times when you get tired from practicing.

Just like my brother.

[m19834]

Depends on what you want of course, but a good balance is better.

"A good balance" is very subjective to the individual and what they want, as you even indicated yourself.  Living a "rich and diverse" life doesn't necessarily mean "Yes, I'd like one of everything, please."  It can mean cutting some things (a lot of things) out in order to make time for other, more important (to the individual) activities -- If frank really wants to accomplish his goals, that is probably going to be realistically necessary.  It doesn't mean he would never do other things, but yes, the majority of his time and energy would be spent with the music.

[eric_wong1387]

Of course it's subjective, but what I wanted to get at was that if he had already invested time and money into other hobbies (a gaming system is quite pricey), it would seem a bit extreme to suddenly "give it up for good" for something that may or may not be accomplishable.   I just wanted to make sure he's really thought over this decision carefully, and not jumping the gun that's all.

[mad_max2024]

I'll give my two cents or coins or whatever.

If you really want to learn all about chopin what I would do is not learn his works by any specific order.
There are no guarantees you will succeed in completing the task and even less guarantees that you will be able to maintain interest in all of Chopin's works that far.
I would learn the pieces I like best first at whatever level I could muster at the time and slowly work my way through until I would or would not finish.
At the least I would end up with several pieces I loved even if I couldnt finish all of them.
To find which pieces are the best for you at any time and to help you in preparing them you should get a teacher, if you don't have one already.

Now as for games, they are fun but not very productive or lasting. If you give them up for something deeper and more fulfilling as music then all the best for you.
I was an avid gamer too but now I rarely have the time to play a game to the finish anymore. Doesn't make a lot of difference, think of games as something you do when you have nothing better to do. Works for me... 

[m19834]

Of course it's subjective, but what I wanted to get at was that if he had already invested time and money into other hobbies (a gaming system is quite pricey), it would seem a bit extreme to suddenly "give it up for good" for something that may or may not be accomplishable.

There are much more extreme things to give up than hobbies.   

I just wanted to make sure he's really thought over this decision carefully, and not jumping the gun that's all.

It's not as though gaming wouldn't be sitting there waiting for him if he should decide that piano playing and his goals are the pits !  In my experience, something like gaming is a lot easier to return to after quitting than something like piano playing and repertoire goals are.

How many people do you know of who have taken the time to go through that much repertoire and make a list like that ?  How many people do you know of who have goals like that ?  It's not an "average" kind of goal, and that means it will require a more than average commitment to the goal.  What he is talking about with piano is not "another hobby."  What he is indicating is a major life-desire and life-work, that means that he will most likely have to give a number of things up, even things that he may like.  That is the reality, that is what I wanted to get at.  

[eric_wong1387]

There are much more extreme things to give up than hobbies.   

It's not as though gaming wouldn't be sitting there waiting for him if he should decide that piano playing and his goals are the pits !  In my experience, something like gaming is a lot easier to return to after quitting than something like piano playing and repertoire goals are.

How many people do you know of who have taken the time to go through that much repertoire and make a list like that ?  How many people do you know of who have goals like that ?  It's not an "average" kind of goal, and that means it will require a more than average commitment to the goal.  What he is talking about with piano is not "another hobby."  What he is indicating is a major life-desire and life-work, that means that he will most likely have to give a number of things up, even things that he may like.  That is the reality, that is what I wanted to get at.  

I understand, I'm not saying you're wrong, no need to turn this into a big debate.  I'm simply saying that hopefully Frank has carefully thought over the responsibilities and consequences of such a huge ambitious goal with music.   mad_max seems to have gone into detail about what I mean in his post.

Thing is, when I was Frank's age (which is really just a few years ago) I had ambitious goals for piano as well, but they've been scaled down greatly in recent years as school/career/social stuff have started to take over.  It's just that at his age, it's easy to make impulsive decisions without carefully considering all the implications.   I'm really just offering an opinion, nothing more.   I could be wrong, but I'm just trying to help.

[m19834]

I understand, I'm not saying you're wrong, no need to turn this into a big debate.

Yes, I understand.  I'm not saying you're right and this has no need to turn into a debate.  I'm simply saying that if Frank would truly like to accomplish his goals, which may indeed change over the years, that it will take a lot of responsibility on his part and that there will be consequences.

In any event, it is perhaps intellectually easy to settle for mediocracy, espeically when it is being encouraged.  Dealing with matters of the heart, however, are much more difficult to "reason" away... 

[bjenkins24]

Well here's my two cents.

I think confining yourself to one composer is a mistake.  There is so much amazing music out there, and tastes change.  I remember when I first began delving deep into the classical piano repertoire my "favorite" composer changed from Chopin to Beethoven to Bach to Rachmaninoff to Prokofiev etc etc...  The more familiar you are with the repertoire the more your tastes evolve.  You could be finding in a few months that everything Beethoven wrote is amazing, and change your mind to playing all of his works.  

Now if you changed it up and gave yourself a balanced diet of composers you'll never be missing out.  Try working on a piece from all four of the major styles at once.  It will make you a better more rounded musician.  

If you want to play all of Chopin's pieces that bad, then for the romantic slot learn mostly Chopin (throwing in some liszt and schumann here and there).  If you play for the rest of your life you might just be able to learn at least a good portion of Chopin's works.

Now I know you said that you wouldn't play only Chopin, but I think that your plan wouldn't be possible if you didn't.  And why do you want to play all of his works?  Some really are very dull...  Have you heard everything he wrote?  You really want to suffer through all of his mazurkas?  Wouldn't the time spent on learning some of his more dull works be better spent on learning the much more musically satisfying well tempered clavier, or perhaps some Beethoven sonatas?

Listen to more music!  There is a massive amount of music out there and even if you spent 24 hours a day 7 days a week listening to music for that last year you still wouldn't have heard the entire repertoire.  I think as you keep listening you'll be surprised how your tastes change.  

[frank_48]

lol i had no idea how controversial this would become

i appriciate everyones comments, especially karli from seeing it from my point of view

i have not regretted giving up gaming, it actually turned out for the better, i mean, choose. a gears of war blood bath with people yelling in your ear for "cheap kills" or making music? hmm. tough choice!

I find all of chopins works facinating, his mazurkas are actually very full of emotion if played properly.

there will always be time for other composers. during the time working through these pieces i will also be playing through bach and beethoven, etc.

[db05]

Go frank!! 

I remember you posted you practice plan here, that includes other composers. Does it still stand? If so, then you practice more than anyone I know and might be progressing a lot faster.

I think max is right, learn the ones you like the most. Not everything by Chopin is a favorite, even when he's one of my best-loved composers. However... This is brought to you by a student who wants to play all of Scarlatti's 500+ sonatas.  If you feel the same way about Chopin like I do about Scarlatti, well, good luck!

Actually, you're pretty lucky. Everyone knows Chopin and some are standard stuff that you'll learn anyway even if you hate him. But when I mention Scarlatti, it's like, who's that? 

I did go back to gaming at some point, got a ROM of my favorite SNES game and played it every night. But as practicing got serious and seriously fun, I forgot all about it. It wasn't about giving up something; the game is still here if ever I want. The thing is I don't want to, there are more interesting things to do!

[m19834]

But as practicing got serious and seriously fun, I forgot all about it. It wasn't about giving up something; the game is still here if ever I want. The thing is I don't want to, there are more interesting things to do!

Practicing won't always be fun.  "Serious" practice can mean many different things.  Deciding to make time for something by consciously giving other things up doesn't necessarily mean the choice was made out of drudgery (though sometimes the decision will definitely not be easy), it can be precisely because a person finds what really matters to oneself.  Sometimes a person truly has to choose between two things that are very "enjoyable" and fruitful endeavors, and the one that wasn't chosen won't always just be forgotten and fall by the wayside.  You can word it however you like, all that really matters is getting down to business and finding a way to be inspired about the work.

[db05]

Practicing won't always be fun.  "Serious" practice can mean many different things.  Deciding to make time for something by consciously giving other things up doesn't necessarily mean the choice was made out of drudgery, it can be precisely because a person finds what really matters to oneself.  Sometimes a person truly has to choose between two things that are very "enjoyable" and fruitful endeavors.  You can word it however you like, all that really matters is getting down to business and finding a way to be inspired about the work.

You explain it quite well! 

[frank_48]

Go frank!! 

I remember you posted you practice plan here, that includes other composers. Does it still stand?

yes thats going well.

despite what bernhard said at the time, the liszt techncial excersise book is fantastic, there are many things in that book that little pieces i play do not contain.
speaking of "little works" i have many books that are around grade 4-5 and are fantastic for the learning student, that was my main idea when i posted this thread that i would focus on finishing all the books i have that contain relativley easy works then i would seriously focus on Chopin, but to be honest i dont see the point anymore. when talking about preludes and waltzes, any piece is going to be a bit hard when starting out but then get easier as the days go by.

[pianowolfi]

Are you going to play them how it's written on the score, or make your own changes at you see fit?

lol I really think that someone who does changes in Chopin has understood nothing about his music yet

[healdie]

Theres only one thing i would change in Chopin and that is..... the notes (sorry to recycle that old blackadder joke)

[tutanker]

This is just my opinion, and of course the decision is yours to make, but doesn't it seem kind of silly to play ALL of Chopin's works?  He wrote A LOT of incredible pieces, but that's not to say that other composers didn't do great work also!  I think you may be wasting some of your potential by having a goal like this...you will end up playing just Chopin and missing out on the vast world of music available to you!  I have played a number of his works and enjoyed them very much, but I have also enjoyed works by Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, Rachmaninoff, Liszt...the list goes on and on (no pun intended).  I think I would probably not be as mature a musician as I am today had I not had that wide variety of styles.
I would say, just choose your favorite pieces, it could be 4 or 40, and have that be a lifelong goal.  Don't feel like you MUST play ALL of the music he wrote, it might not be good for you.
That being said, I admire your ambition.  I know you are still starting out, and it's great that you have found a composer you love.  Don't hesitate to play others though, you may find that you like someone who you expected not to (for me, it's Prokofiev).  With whatever you decide, good luck!