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Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4 (Read 6476 times)

Offline kayordee

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Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
« on: November 03, 2008, 06:52:00 AM »
Hey guys, I was wondering what techniques I could use to help with the fingering and speed of bars 2 and 3 (not including anacarusis). Im having difficulty executing these bars and help will be appreciated - thanks. :D
 PS: if anyone isnt sure I should be doing this then can you suggest any other pieces that incorporate the difficulties of this etude or any build up pieces
Martelli vigoroso il piano con abbastanza forza per rompere le stringhe - Hehehehe

piano sheet music of Etude


Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
«Reply #1 on: November 03, 2008, 05:29:26 PM »
If you seriously want to play chopin etudes, at least get yourself some decent sheetmusic for it like an edition Peters, wich provides proper fingering.
1+1=11

Offline Kassaa

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Re: Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
«Reply #2 on: November 05, 2008, 05:33:11 PM »
If you seriously want to play chopin etudes, at least get yourself some decent sheetmusic for it like an edition Peters, wich provides proper fingering.
LOL, decent and Peters in one sentence! :D Get Henle, Paderewski or Jan Ekier, for the etudes Cortot's edition is also very recommendable.
Everything will pass, and the world will perish but the Waldstein Sonata will remain.

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
«Reply #3 on: November 05, 2008, 09:08:25 PM »
LOL, decent and Peters in one sentence! :D Get Henle, Paderewski or Jan Ekier, for the etudes Cortot's edition is also very recommendable.

Dunno, my edition peters of the chopin etudes is an excellent version, also practically pianist from the conservatory i know uses it.
Maybe i forgot that some amateurs need help on fingering on every single note. My mistake.
1+1=11

Offline thierry13

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Re: Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
«Reply #4 on: November 06, 2008, 02:31:42 AM »
Peters simply don't have the commentaries and all possible sources/possibilities for everything, and a sheet music with fingerings is useless unless it is Chopin's own. Peters is not recommandable for Chopin. Nor is Henley. Get paderewski, musica budapest, or Jan Ekier national edition. I own musica budapest and love it, there are all source commentaries at the end and everything is clear. Stephen Hough told me it was a great edition also.

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
«Reply #5 on: November 06, 2008, 07:28:45 AM »
Peters simply don't have the commentaries and all possible sources/possibilities for everything, and a sheet music with fingerings is useless unless it is Chopin's own. Peters is not recommandable for Chopin. Nor is Henley. Get paderewski, musica budapest, or Jan Ekier national edition. I own musica budapest and love it, there are all source commentaries at the end and everything is clear. Stephen Hough told me it was a great edition also.

First, the edition peters i have gives multiple fingering advice, i have no idea of what use all those commentaries could be. And why is sheetmusic with fingerings useless unless its Chopins fingering? Chopins fingering doesnt have to be the best for you, it depends on your hands. And with your argumentation you should also say that comentaries are useless unless it are Chopin's own commentaries ;)

Anyway, the guy who created this thread probably has a version without any fingering or commentary, else he wouldnt post this thread. My guess is that 'even' an edition Peters would be a great improvement to his current one.
1+1=11

Offline thierry13

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Re: Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
«Reply #6 on: November 07, 2008, 05:06:05 AM »
First, the edition peters i have gives multiple fingering advice, i have no idea of what use all those commentaries could be. And why is sheetmusic with fingerings useless unless its Chopins fingering? Chopins fingering doesnt have to be the best for you, it depends on your hands. And with your argumentation you should also say that comentaries are useless unless it are Chopin's own commentaries ;)

Anyway, the guy who created this thread probably has a version without any fingering or commentary, else he wouldnt post this thread. My guess is that 'even' an edition Peters would be a great improvement to his current one.

Did you think a single second before posting? First of all, if Chopin's fingerings don't have to be "the best for you", then I can't see how a mere editor's ones would be better. That's exactly why I said fingerings in sheet music are useless, fingering is different for every person/style of playing. Only Chopin's are interesting, not to actually use them, but to see how the composer conceived fingerings for the piece.

Now, what the f***ing hell do you think a commentary is? Interpretation suggestions? Where do you come from? Did you even study a single piece of music properly? Commentaries are for the various readings of the original manuscript, because sometimes notes or whole passage change from one edition to another! So, to have the more information possible to do a proper rendition of the work, you need to know what each source gave, and why. That's what the commentaries are all about. I can't see what you are talking about when you say "Chopin's commentaries"? Hell, the commentaries are there to help you to understand Chopin better, for matters that he was unclear about! Don't argue editions when you have no idea what you're talking about.

Offline Kassaa

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Re: Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
«Reply #7 on: November 07, 2008, 08:36:45 AM »
Dunno, my edition peters of the chopin etudes is an excellent version, also practically pianist from the conservatory i know uses it.
Maybe i forgot that some amateurs need help on fingering on every single note. My mistake.
What conservatory, Zwolle? :')
Everything will pass, and the world will perish but the Waldstein Sonata will remain.

Offline loonbohol

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Re: Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
«Reply #8 on: November 07, 2008, 10:05:54 AM »
Try this.

[5-4-3-2]       [(1-5)-3-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2] [3-4-3-5-2-3-2-5-1-3-2-5-1-3-2-5]
[1-2-5-3-1-2-5-3-1-2-5-3-1-2-5-3]

I have played this etude a long time ago.
I am learning winter wind right now.
All Hail Kajiura
All Hail Nilsjohan
Welcome to Merville.
Land of Utopia

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
«Reply #9 on: November 07, 2008, 10:50:44 AM »
Did you think a single second before posting? First of all, if Chopin's fingerings don't have to be "the best for you", then I can't see how a mere editor's ones would be better. That's exactly why I said fingerings in sheet music are useless, fingering is different for every person/style of playing. Only Chopin's are interesting, not to actually use them, but to see how the composer conceived fingerings for the piece.

Now, what the f***ing hell do you think a commentary is? Interpretation suggestions? Where do you come from? Did you even study a single piece of music properly? Commentaries are for the various readings of the original manuscript, because sometimes notes or whole passage change from one edition to another! So, to have the more information possible to do a proper rendition of the work, you need to know what each source gave, and why. That's what the commentaries are all about. I can't see what you are talking about when you say "Chopin's commentaries"? Hell, the commentaries are there to help you to understand Chopin better, for matters that he was unclear about! Don't argue editions when you have no idea what you're talking about.

I guess youre some Asian or American pianist who thinks musicality comes from playing something technically perfect and reading a bunch of 'commentaries'.
True good pianists play their own interpretation and let them being lead by the music itself, not by commentaries, those are for the amateurs who dont understand the music itself.

About fingering... Good editions only give fingering at some keypoints, and provide some alternate fingering on technically difficult places. To my opinion the edition Peters does that perfectly with the Chopin Etudes, but i gues that i forgot that some people cant understand music without 'commentaries'.

Gyzzzmo
1+1=11

Offline Kassaa

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Re: Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
«Reply #10 on: November 07, 2008, 12:50:14 PM »
I guess youre some Asian or American pianist who thinks musicality comes from playing something technically perfect and reading a bunch of 'commentaries'.
True good pianists play their own interpretation and let them being lead by the music itself, not by commentaries, those are for the amateurs who dont understand the music itself.

About fingering... Good editions only give fingering at some keypoints, and provide some alternate fingering on technically difficult places. To my opinion the edition Peters does that perfectly with the Chopin Etudes, but i gues that i forgot that some people cant understand music without 'commentaries'.

Gyzzzmo
WT.F commentaries are for interesting differences between the different sources and often add a historic perspective to a piece, which can only add to your grasp of the piece. Peters often has added pedalling, wrong notes and sloppy editing.

Apart from that interpretation isn't something that just is there, it is your personal opinion of a piece which is a combination of how it feels to you  AND your intellect which is needed to put that feeling into context. That intellect is the knowledge of style, general knowledge of the piece (COMMENTARIES) and other things you can get from analyzing and stuff.
Everything will pass, and the world will perish but the Waldstein Sonata will remain.

Offline thierry13

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Re: Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
«Reply #11 on: November 07, 2008, 04:57:56 PM »
I guess youre some Asian or American pianist who thinks musicality comes from playing something technically perfect and reading a bunch of 'commentaries'.
True good pianists play their own interpretation and let them being lead by the music itself, not by commentaries, those are for the amateurs who dont understand the music itself.

About fingering... Good editions only give fingering at some keypoints, and provide some alternate fingering on technically difficult places. To my opinion the edition Peters does that perfectly with the Chopin Etudes, but i gues that i forgot that some people cant understand music without 'commentaries'.

Gyzzzmo

Are you stupid? You defend the fact that a given fingering might not be best for everyone, then you defend an edition who gives one. Next, I explain to you that the commentaries are NOT interpretative suggestions, then you still say they are, and that I need them to interpret the piece? My whole point was that the music should speak for itself and that you do not need stupid things written by somebody else than the composer! You definitely did not think before posting this one either ... I could add to this post everything that Kassaa said, but he allready did, so there's no point  :)

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
«Reply #12 on: November 07, 2008, 09:47:01 PM »
I suppose i'm not getting your point, and you're not getting mine.
Lets just keep it to my first reply in this thread, the initial poster needs sheetmusic with proper fingering. Wich edition is proper depends too much on opinions i guess, but we probably all agree that in general, an edition with some fingering is better than an edition with no fingering at all.

gyzzzmo
1+1=11

Offline thierry13

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Re: Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
«Reply #13 on: November 08, 2008, 09:06:17 PM »
I suppose i'm not getting your point, and you're not getting mine.
Lets just keep it to my first reply in this thread, the initial poster needs sheetmusic with proper fingering. Wich edition is proper depends too much on opinions i guess, but we probably all agree that in general, an edition with some fingering is better than an edition with no fingering at all.

gyzzzmo

No we won't agree on that! I get your point perfectly, and you simply don't know what to reply, so you say you don't understand. There's nothing to be misunderstood, you simply do not know what source commentaries actually are (a fact you proved twice) wich is something VERY important to any edition. In Peter's (I HAVE the peters edition of chopin etudes) they are inexistant. That's why I suggested editions that actually have them! They are very important particularly in Chopin etudes since there are a lot of differencies between the various editions. And no, to a serious student, fingerings are useless. As you said yourself, fingering is proper to every individual. The only *interesting* fingerings are the one provided by the composer, not to actually use them, but to see how the composer played the piece.

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
«Reply #14 on: November 08, 2008, 10:15:52 PM »
No we won't agree on that! I get your point perfectly, and you simply don't know what to reply, so you say you don't understand. There's nothing to be misunderstood, you simply do not know what source commentaries actually are (a fact you proved twice) wich is something VERY important to any edition. In Peter's (I HAVE the peters edition of chopin etudes) they are inexistant. That's why I suggested editions that actually have them! They are very important particularly in Chopin etudes since there are a lot of differencies between the various editions. And no, to a serious student, fingerings are useless. As you said yourself, fingering is proper to every individual. The only *interesting* fingerings are the one provided by the composer, not to actually use them, but to see how the composer played the piece.

Might be very interesting if you're a historicus. But me as a performer havent found those interesting at all. And if i may say so, i passed the 'serious student' for quite some time and make a living out of playing piano. And i still find fingering useful since they save me alot of time.
1+1=11

Offline thierry13

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Re: Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
«Reply #15 on: November 09, 2008, 05:04:56 PM »
Might be very interesting if you're a historicus. But me as a performer havent found those interesting at all. And if i may say so, i passed the 'serious student' for quite some time and make a living out of playing piano. And i still find fingering useful since they save me alot of time.

I will simply make you remember YOU are the one who argued that a given fingering might not be good for everyone. I will also make you remember that there are a lot of differences, different NOTES and different CHORDS completly from edition to edition, and that, AS A PERFORMER, you should be aware of what you do with the music, and playing the composition right. You rely on a week edition and you do not even know what are the other possibilities out there. Source commentaries are studied BY historicus, FOR us performer to simply have them as a resource. I can't believe you make a living playing the piano and still think that way. You play concertos with major orchestras and make solo recitals all over the world? Are you that good a player and really still think the way you do, and DON'T KNOW what commentaries actually are? Hard to believe. If you make of living of playing the piano in any other way, like playing pop music or whatever, then you are excused for your ignorance, but do not come tell us what editions to use when you don't know what you're talking about. Every fingering has to be tested and you must try all possibilities everytime anyways to find you own, so it is very weird you say a given fingering by an editor saves you time, when you argued that Chopin's own fingerings might be doubtful ...

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
«Reply #16 on: November 09, 2008, 09:29:11 PM »
I will simply make you remember YOU are the one who argued that a given fingering might not be good for everyone. I will also make you remember that there are a lot of differences, different NOTES and different CHORDS completly from edition to edition, and that, AS A PERFORMER, you should be aware of what you do with the music, and playing the composition right. You rely on a week edition and you do not even know what are the other possibilities out there. Source commentaries are studied BY historicus, FOR us performer to simply have them as a resource. I can't believe you make a living playing the piano and still think that way. You play concertos with major orchestras and make solo recitals all over the world? Are you that good a player and really still think the way you do, and DON'T KNOW what commentaries actually are? Hard to believe. If you make of living of playing the piano in any other way, like playing pop music or whatever, then you are excused for your ignorance, but do not come tell us what editions to use when you don't know what you're talking about. Every fingering has to be tested and you must try all possibilities everytime anyways to find you own, so it is very weird you say a given fingering by an editor saves you time, when you argued that Chopin's own fingerings might be doubtful ...

You're getting rather silly here. 2 Replies back i tried to find a diplomatic ending for this discussion, but i suppose thierry13 stands for 'thierry stays 13'. I have my way of playing piano and edition Peters have (in general) worked fine for me. I suppose you cant play pieces musically without knowing its historical context wich is fine. Just dont bother me with it, and definitely dont try claiming that only editions with commentaries are good because they are NOT required for playing pieces proper and musically.

I'm retreating from this thread, i didnt expect that a simple advice like 'get a decent edition' would trigger that much sillyness in people.

So one last note for the thread starter: Get your self a 'decent' edition, whatever that might be for you, since opinions differ about that.

gyzzzmo
1+1=11

Offline thierry13

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Re: Fingering For Chopin Etude Op.10 #4
«Reply #17 on: November 09, 2008, 10:44:26 PM »
You're getting rather silly here. 2 Replies back i tried to find a diplomatic ending for this discussion, but i suppose thierry13 stands for 'thierry stays 13'. I have my way of playing piano and edition Peters have (in general) worked fine for me. I suppose you cant play pieces musically without knowing its historical context wich is fine. Just dont bother me with it, and definitely dont try claiming that only editions with commentaries are good because they are NOT required for playing pieces proper and musically.

I'm retreating from this thread, i didnt expect that a simple advice like 'get a decent edition' would trigger that much sillyness in people.

So one last note for the thread starter: Get your self a 'decent' edition, whatever that might be for you, since opinions differ about that.

gyzzzmo

You're not getting the point do you? I asked you how you lived your life playing the piano and you didn't answer, you still keep saying commentaries are historical context (when they are different NOTES, not HISTORICAL CONTEXTS), YOU were the one to defend that what might work for one might not work for the other, yet you still argue that Peter is the best choice since it worked for you. The other editions (with commentaries), are simply more complete, they do have fingerings sometimes (or even alternative fingerings for complicated passages), but they also have different NOTES, wich are not "ways of playing a piece", but the actual PIECE! There's no sillyness in saying peter's is an inferior edition. Great if it worked for you, but the best, and most complete editions, are Jan Ekier and Musica Budapest.