A few questions regarding technique

[popdog]

Hi,

Do most people consider removing hand/s from the piano, whilst playing to be a technical deficiency?  My teacher seems to think that, even when one hand has a sustained rest, it should remain resting on the keys (I rest it on my knee).  I don't really see the problem with this. 

Another thing is that she insists my foot remain resting on the pedal whilst playing, whereas I sometimes take it off when it's not being used.  I figure as long as it doesn't prevent you from pedalling properly (which it doesn't), then it's not really a problem. 

If you watch a Horowitz performance you'll often see him do both of these things (as well as using a flat fingers - an other thing my teacher doesn't accept).

Another things is that I'm auditioning for courses soon, are the panel likely to care about these minor points? 

Thanks for any help. 

[gyzzzmo]

Hi,

A) Do most people consider removing hand/s from the piano, whilst playing to be a technical deficiency?  My teacher seems to think that, even when one hand has a sustained rest, it should remain resting on the keys (I rest it on my knee).  I don't really see the problem with this. 

B) Another thing is that she insists my foot remain resting on the pedal whilst playing, whereas I sometimes take it off when it's not being used.  I figure as long as it doesn't prevent you from pedalling properly (which it doesn't), then it's not really a problem. 

C) If you watch a Horowitz performance you'll often see him do both of these things (as well as using a flat fingers - an other thing my teacher doesn't accept).

D) Another things is that I'm auditioning for courses soon, are the panel likely to care about these minor points? 

Thanks for any help. 

A) it shouldnt matter ofcourse, but it does look silly and uninterested, plus why do it if you have to use that hand soon again anyway? So nothing to do with 'deficiencies', but its a bad habit, so get rid of it unless youre playing a left hand etude.

B) same as A, its a bad habit with more disadvantages than advantages (getting your foot off the pedal), so why do it?

C) You're not Horowitz. You should get taught in a way it works for most pianists (bend fingers) and also Horowitz generally playes with bend fingers since thats the best in most cases. Not wanting to play with bend fingers is in your case stubborness, not because you know better than your teacher how to play the piano (i hope)

D) Likely. A good panel would only accept those 'flaws' in your style if you're able to do an amazing and unheard performance and thus can proof that those flaws work for you, wich they probably dont.

So get rid of those flaws, listen to your teacher because he/she does know how to play well, and you are only the student.

good luck,

gyzzzmo

[hyrst]

Horowitz often plays beautifully but his technique is not a model and definitely not an excuse for most students.  It is far better to start with the generally accepted principle of rounding hands and fingers - because this is how any normal physical structure is best rested and we need to rest and relax at every opportunity.  It might be that Horowitz has such strength that he is able to execute and entire piece without coming to zero tension - but that is not for most of us. 

The principle for the resting hand - perhaps a matter of opinion.  Really, there are not that many opportunities to completely rest a hand without anticipating its next starting point.  I have seen professional performers rest a hand on their knee - but they take care to present their entire body as part of the performance.  The process of lowering the hand and raising it are as artistic as anything else they are doing - simply because they are using it as part of the relaxation management.  However, I state again that these opportunities are rare and in most cases - certainly in anything less than 5 pages - lowering your hand is additional movement that means your hand is unprepared for its next section and can create hesitation.  If you do have opporunity to lower your hand, consider the audiences' view of this - your performance (even if it is an imagined one) is a visual as well as a sound performance.  Be sure to rest but don't be lazy.

The pedal is again not a clear cut thing.  If you are playing a piece that requires no pedal or only one or two chords in an entire piece, a better balanced position might be achieved by feet placed on the floor correctly.  However, any regular pedalling within a piece requires foot on the pedal - for the same reasons above.  You don't want your audience distracted and stuck with watching your feet - rather boring.  You then have the problem of getting to and from the pedal smoothly on time.

If you tire from these demands, do extra exercise and shorter bursts of practice.  However, if it is bad habit, remember things are easier fixed the sooner you do it. 

[popdog]

Thanks for the replies. 

Well I figure that I might as well stop these habits now...  They're not that thoroughly engrained so it will be pretty easy. 

By the way I do none of these things because Horowitz does (I generally play WITH curved fingers), but I thought it interesting to note that he does them.  The fact is I take everything my teacher says with a pinch of salt, especially since she mostly teaches beginning students. 

This brings me to another question: in Beethoven's op.31/2 sonata (Tempest), 1st movt., bars 100, 104, 108 etc the first note in the LH is marked staccato with two rests after it.  My teacher says that the pedal should be used to hold this note to the next note the LH plays.  In numerous recordings I've heard it's played this way, and yet it clearly contradicts the indications in the score.  Why do people play it this way, and would an audition panel want to hear it this way or as is indicated in the score?  My tendency would be to the latter but I would be interested to hear others opinions. 

Thanks again. 

[scottmcc]

interesting question regarding the tempest.  I doubt you could be faulted for following the score, and to me the score is quite clear there.  there are certainly some who would fault you for using the pedal there, as beethoven left very clear pedal marks elsewhere in the piece (such as 2 pars prior), but specifically marks  staccato and 2 quarter rests in bar 100.

additionally, if one analyzes the themes, we're looking at the development of the theme from bar 21, right?  so in the first instance, the final LH D is held for 3 whole bars, but in contradistinction we're now in F# and the final note is much shorter, with a new motif introduced between (bar 101) repeats of the initial motif.  so clearly a contrast between the two is needed, or else there wouldn't be a lot of developing in the development section.

finally, I fear that use of pedal here would blur the RH part, which must be crisp and stormy.

so I think you're right.  I'm not sure why others play it as you mentioned. 

ps...schiff plays staccato:  https://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/page/0,,1943867,00.html

(approx 15 minutes into the lecture)
(additionally, for a very specific mention of pedalling in the 3rd mvt, approx 32 min)

[gyzzzmo]

Thanks for the replies. 

Well I figure that I might as well stop these habits now...  They're not that thoroughly engrained so it will be pretty easy. 

By the way I do none of these things because Horowitz does (I generally play WITH curved fingers), but I thought it interesting to note that he does them.  The fact is I take everything my teacher says with a pinch of salt, especially since she mostly teaches beginning students. 


Thanks again. 

It's not a bad habit to question your teacher sometimes, after all you have to understand what you're doing. But that you take everything your teacher says not seriously because she mostly teaches beginning students is not really smart.
You should start to realise that you are the 'nittwitt' and that your teacher is far far better than you, plus he probably/hopefully had a professional piano education, he knows how to teach and you know absolutely nothing.
At the moment he is teaching you the very basis of piano playing, and he's probably doing it the right way, but you are the problem because you're doubting his expertise, or do you have any experience to doubt his expertise?

gyzzzmo

[hyrst]

I have also found Horowitz's playing a curiosity.

Regarding the Tempest, I would be inclined to play as directed.  There is room for pedalling, but I would not go beyond the beat - although you could toy with some flutter pedalling.  Two things to keep in mind interpreting the Classical style - it did preempt the Romantic harmonically and our modern instrument has more potential to draw out these harmonics.  Pedalling where not marked can be very useful.  However, we still need to keep in mind the crisp, pure style of the Classical period.  Often, because Beethoven in particular had Romantic tendencies, we alter the interpretations of his works into a Romantic style.  This is very common.  In my opinion, this loses some of the sense of Beethoven's music.  It works to a large extent, but loses something. 

Also keep in mind that where Beethoven and other composers on fortepiano indicate pedalling it might not be as much as we would produce by following their markings completely.  Again, our instrument is different and pedalling is far more complete - often too heavy for the style.  Always listen carefully and use that as a basis for your decisions.

The best thing is to try differnet things, listen very carefully before making up your mind, and then choose an interpretation that you like.  Make it yours.  Take people's advices - but you need to play what musically you want to express.  A panel would not judge you right or wrong if your performance is true to the style and consistent - in other words, if your performance validates your interepretation.

As far as questioning your teacher - it is good to question.  Teachers are not always right, no matter how experienced they are as a musician or teacher.  But, remember your teacher does have more experience than you.  It doesn't make any difference that they teach beginners - perhaps they are particularly good in that area (doesn't make them less good at advanced levels) or perhaps more beginners want to learn than advanced players (that is logical).  Question and discuss things with your teacher.  You need to make decisions about how you play with an informed attitude - but don't prematurely doubt your teacher.  You need to have a degree of trust in their advice or you are wasting your money and time.  If you can't find that, try a few other teachers and compare.  Be a constructive student.

Enjoy your learning and take initiative wisely. 

[popdog]

interesting question regarding the tempest.  I doubt you could be faulted for following the score, and to me the score is quite clear there.  there are certainly some who would fault you for using the pedal there, as beethoven left very clear pedal marks elsewhere in the piece (such as 2 pars prior), but specifically marks  staccato and 2 quarter rests in bar 100.

additionally, if one analyzes the themes, we're looking at the development of the theme from bar 21, right?  so in the first instance, the final LH D is held for 3 whole bars, but in contradistinction we're now in F# and the final note is much shorter, with a new motif introduced between (bar 101) repeats of the initial motif.  so clearly a contrast between the two is needed, or else there wouldn't be a lot of developing in the development section.

finally, I fear that use of pedal here would blur the RH part, which must be crisp and stormy.

so I think you're right.  I'm not sure why others play it as you mentioned. 

ps...schiff plays staccato:  https://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/page/0,,1943867,00.html

(approx 15 minutes into the lecture)
(additionally, for a very specific mention of pedalling in the 3rd mvt, approx 32 min)

Thanks for this - all three of your reasons make sense to me.  I'm going to play around with pedal vs. no pedal a little more and talk to my teacher.  One possible reason for use of pedal here is that it could cover up the RH trill if you weren't able to execute it - and yet many virtuoso pianists use it which suggests another reason. 

It sounded to me like Schiff used no pedal to hold the note, yet he held on to it for longer than a staccato crotchet. 

You should start to realise that you are the 'nittwitt' and that your teacher is far far better than you, plus he probably/hopefully had a professional piano education, he knows how to teach and you know absolutely nothing.
gyzzzmo

Given that you know so little about me and my teacher these comments seem a little rich don't you think?  I don't want to get into an argument anyway and do appreciate your point - I don't doubt everything my teacher says nor do I think I know better than her. 

[popdog]

I have also found Horowitz's playing a curiosity.

Regarding the Tempest, I would be inclined to play as directed.  There is room for pedalling, but I would not go beyond the beat - although you could toy with some flutter pedalling.  Two things to keep in mind interpreting the Classical style - it did preempt the Romantic harmonically and our modern instrument has more potential to draw out these harmonics.  Pedalling where not marked can be very useful.  However, we still need to keep in mind the crisp, pure style of the Classical period.  Often, because Beethoven in particular had Romantic tendencies, we alter the interpretations of his works into a Romantic style.  This is very common.  In my opinion, this loses some of the sense of Beethoven's music.  It works to a large extent, but loses something. 

I agree about the classical/romantic issue with Beethoven.  This being a middle sonata, I tend to think in both ways.  It does seem a very long way from the classical style as I know it though. 

The best thing is to try differnet things, listen very carefully before making up your mind, and then choose an interpretation that you like.  Make it yours.  Take people's advices - but you need to play what musically you want to express.  A panel would not judge you right or wrong if your performance is true to the style and consistent - in other words, if your performance validates your interepretation.

Good advice.  So you suggest whatever way of interpreting I take, be consistent right?

 

As far as questioning your teacher - it is good to question.  Teachers are not always right, no matter how experienced they are as a musician or teacher.  But, remember your teacher does have more experience than you.  It doesn't make any difference that they teach beginners - perhaps they are particularly good in that area (doesn't make them less good at advanced levels) or perhaps more beginners want to learn than advanced players (that is logical).  Question and discuss things with your teacher.  You need to make decisions about how you play with an informed attitude - but don't prematurely doubt your teacher.  You need to have a degree of trust in their advice or you are wasting your money and time.  If you can't find that, try a few other teachers and compare.  Be a constructive student.

Again this makes sense.  My teacher has said herself that my level is about as far as she would go - I am preparing for auditions which would mean changing teacher if I get accepted. 

Thanks for your help.

[gyzzzmo]

Given that you know so little about me and my teacher these comments seem a little rich don't you think?  I don't want to get into an argument anyway and do appreciate your point - I don't doubt everything my teacher says nor do I think I know better than her. 

Well, the thing i DO know is that she/he is the teacher, and you're the student. Plus you question even the silliest things like 'removing hands' and 'feet from pedal', wich indicates that you know little about pianoplaying and still doubting your teacher alot.

But good that you got my point: Stop questioning your teacher and realise that he/she can learn you alot. There are reasons for why your teacher teaches you things a certain way, and so far he/she has been right.
Maybe you should ask your teacher the 'whys' next time yourself, he has to get used to explaining things when teaching older people and you can give him that chance. That doesnt make him a bad teacher, he just needs to get used to another approach to learn you all those things he knows

good luck,

gyzzzmo

[hyrst]

Yes, be consistent once you have decided.  Good luck.

[ryanyee]

i think that resting ur unused hand on anywhere but ur head or anywhere else inappropriate is fine. u've gotta have some place to rest ur arms right? and leaving it on the keys looks very funny to me. and not to mention the possibility of an accidental pressing down of the keys

[quantum]

I'm glad your questioning your teacher.  It's a good sign you are thinking about what you are being told instead of blindly following.  Realize there are differing schools of thought when it comes to technique and what works for one does not for another. 

Before you dismiss your teachers suggestions, try them out and see if they improve your playing.  I don't see anything wrong with resting your hand on your lap, or taking your foot off the pedal (although these are things I don't like to do personally).  Sometimes removing your left foot of the pedal gives more stability in intense passages.  Placing your hand on your lap is far better than what some people do with a free hand - conduct the music wildly for example. 

Constantly putting your hand to keys and lap, back and forth - same with the foot on and off the pedal - is wasted energy and a distraction.  Don't do these things if you find you are doing them every few seconds.  Leaving them in the ready position makes for greater efficiency and less distraction. 

A jury will be looking at how well you use your technique to achieve musical goals.  They will probably only point out faulty technique if they feel it is affecting the music.  They shouldn't snicker about "I don't like your fingering" and little stuff like that, but realize there are bad prof...**cough** apples out there.