Too late for lessons?

[itu]

     I don't quite know how this happened, but a year and a half ago, we bought our son a keyboard as a gift for 8th grade graduation. Until this point, he played guitar and trumpet. Since he received the keyboard, he has somehow managed to learn to play the piano, quite well.
     In June I bought him an actual piano. He spends every free minute at it. He did this with his keyboard too, before he got the piano. He went from not knowing anything about a piano to currently playing Piano Concerto No. 3 in D minor, Op. 30 by Rachmaninoff. All of this in a year and a half with no lessons.
     He totally amazes me and I have thought about having him take lessons, but he says that he doesn't think that he needs them. Quite honestly, I don't know if lessons would do more harm than good at this point or if it would frustrate him to the point where he doesn't want to play. He reads music quite well, but also plays by ear with no problem.
     I am just uncertain what direction to go with him. He seems to like to be challanged when it comes to the piano, but would formal lessons be seen as a challange or a frustration?

[m19834]

he says that he doesn't think that he needs them.

Overall, it really depends on him and also what his actual musical goals are.  There are many astounding players and musicians in the world, and many of those people have teachers (though I am sure there are plenty of coal-encased diamonds, too).  There are remarkable teachers in the world who know how to take extremely talented people, challenge them and make them better.  Your son's perception of "doesn't need" and a great teacher's perception of "doesn't need" are probably two very different things. 

Quite honestly, I don't know if lessons would do more harm than good at this point or if it would frustrate him to the point where he doesn't want to play. He reads music quite well, but also plays by ear with no problem.
     I am just uncertain what direction to go with him. He seems to like to be challanged when it comes to the piano, but would formal lessons be seen as a challange or a frustration?

Well, one thing for sure is that if he is convinced forever that he doesn't need lessons (or rather, doesn't WANT lessons), then yes, they would only be a frustration because a good teacher will definitely challenge him and ask more of him than he knows how to ask of himself.  However, a good teacher may very well change his mind.  So, I would suggest you talk with each other a bit to start out with, and then if you decide to proceed with lessons, you will want to meet with a few and eventually find just the right one (for now).  Each good teacher will still be very individual and will have a unique ability to reach your son, so don't give up on teachers altogether if it doesn't seem to work out instantly. 

[alpacinator1]

So he's been playing for 1.5 years, no lessons, and is playing Rach3. I suppose I'll be the first to call bullcrap...

[kelly_kelly]

Don't exaggerate if you want anyone to take you seriously. Rach 3? Give us a break.

[hyrst]

If he seems to be playing Rach 3, and he wants to develop into a quality player, I would seriously consider finding a good teacher - be patient and probably try a few out until you find one who is encouraging but can correct and improve his playing.  Of course, like K said, he has to want to do this or it will frustrate him.  A good teacher will slow him down and teach him the techniques to play such pieces with quality and control.  At the moment I would guess he is playing something like these in a way that is fun but not masterful.  He apparently has a lot of potential but he needs to want to use it.  If he is happy to play for fun, then there is no reason for him to change what he is doing.  However, if he wants to use his talent and play with quality than none of us are brilliant enough to do this without advice.  If he can begin to realise he is not playing as masterfully as he wants to or thinks he is, he might be more open to valuing and perfecting his playing.  He is at an age where it will only work if he wants to, though.  You can be sure a teacher will have him working carefully on things he doesn't think are fun - but they are necessary and he needs to have this understanding for himself.

Maybe video or record his playing - in a positive manner.  Allow him to decide if he wants to critic or improve it.  Just do it and then offer for him to watch - let him do any commenting.  He might decide for himself.

And, no, it is not too late for lessons - it is a great time if he wants them.

[m19834]

However, if he wants to use his talent and play with quality than none of us are brilliant enough to do this without advice.

This just made me ponder a bit.  In some sense, I think we are all "brilliant" enough to do this without advice (well, to learn to play anyway), it's just without any outside perspectives, we will be forever limited by whatever we are currently able to grasp about music and the craft and ourselves.  The point of having a teacher is to have a different (knowledgeable) person's input and experience thrown into the mix so as to broaden our own expectations and horizons, in my opinion.  You can do this to a certain degree by just listening to others and observing, but somebody (a teacher) with more experience can hear things (and point things out) that the student may not even know to listen for, for example. 

[ahinton]

Hush little baby, don't say a word, mamma's gonna to buy you a mocking bird...

At the risk of momentarily interrupting the proceedings here, what or whom do you suppose it might mock? Plenty of scope on this forum, one might inagine.

Back to topic, hurriedly...

Best,

Alistair

[m19834]

what or whom do you suppose it might mock?

hee hee ... I was wondering that my very self  .  I don't know.  Maybe everybody ?  Maybe itself ?  But anyway, isn't there an actual answer to that ?  I mean, isn't the song about something in particular ?  hee hee ... for some reason I have an image of a tree inside of my head with a mocking bird in it.

*shoes the bird away*
*it just flies to a second tree*

[nanabush]

Maybe your son should make an account on the forum and poke around a bit... he'll probably find enough useful advice to last him 10 years.

[itu]

Thank you all for your input. I think I shall discuss this with him further and maybe point him to the forums here. I play violin, so I am not much help to him when it comes to piano or what proper techniques he should be using. I just see his desire, ability and determination and want to do what I can to help him improve. We live in a small town so I'll have to seek out piano teachers here and talk with them. There doesn't seem to be an abundance of them around and most of the ones that I knew have retired, but I'll do some asking around town and see what I can turn up.

At school, he has a new band director this year. He has pulled him off of trumpet and is having him play the piano for the Christmas concert this year. He is quite excited!

About 6 months ago he did a lot of work with music theory. I happened to come across his notes which were heavily focused on modulation. I asked him about it and he almost seemed embarrassed and didn't seem to think his notes had anything to do with theory, but then turned around and told me that these areas were important for him to know if he was going to progress......

[hyrst]

The reason I say none of us can really do it alone is exactly because we tend to stick with what we know.  We can achieve a lot and play excellently, but we might not know there is a more efficient way or that we could try different ways of doing things.  We might lose the freshness of hearing our pieces and find it difficult to hear properly - we get used to hearing ourselves a certain way.  A person who knows music enough to make suggestions gives us a useful external view.  We might need someone to challenge us with a new style or something we might not have the self-motivation or courage to attempt.  We might just need to be accountable or work towards playing something better than we would if we jsut played it for ourselves.  If anybody could do all of these things for themselves I would have awesome respect for them.

[mrba1979]

Would you be able to post a video or recording of him playing?

[itu]

Would you be able to post a video or recording of him playing?

I can probably come up with something if he agrees to it. It will be about 2 weeks though before I can get something arranged due to everyone's schedules.

[alpacinator1]

What you're saying is completely absurd, and I absolutely refuse to believe you until you've posted a video proving that he can play Rach 3. I await this video.

[lostinidlewonder]

This thread is pretty funny. If we logically look at the situation, this kid has in 1.5 years managed to play one of the most difficult piano concertos written. And he needs direction? Please! If he got to the Rach 3 in 1.5 years and from not knowing how to play the piano to start with, he works on a level that I don't think any of us know about. So he has something to teach us! I managed to teach a 5 year old the Rach 3, but it took 2 years.

[gyzzzmo]

I managed to teach a 5 year old the Rach 3, but it took 2 years.

Wich is just as absurd.

[hyrst]

This thread is pretty funny. If we logically look at the situation, this kid has in 1.5 years managed to play one of the most difficult piano concertos written. And he needs direction? Please! If he got to the Rach 3 in 1.5 years and from not knowing how to play the piano to start with, he works on a level that I don't think any of us know about. So he has something to teach us! I managed to teach a 5 year old the Rach 3, but it took 2 years.

But even though he must be a total genius, don't you think he is likely to benefit from someone to share with, to challenge him, to make suggestions, to analyse with, etc?

How did you manage a 7 year old to play the Rach 3?  They must have had a fair sized hand for a child that age - and it amazes me that a child that age would set their heart on playing this piece.  I have a brilliant 7 year old student myself at present, so I am not going to join people questioning you - I know young children can easily do things sometimes that kind of scare me.  I just go "wow" that they wanted to and had the physical size to do it.



Itu, is your son actually playing the full score or playing from ear or an arrangement?  It strikes me that we have all assumed he is playing the full thing without even knowing for sure.

[gyzzzmo]

But even though he must be a total genius, don't you think he is likely to benefit from someone to share with, to challenge him, to make suggestions, to analyse with, etc?

How did you manage a 7 year old to play the Rach 3?  They must have had a fair sized hand for a child that age - and it amazes me that a child that age would set their heart on playing this piece.  I have a brilliant 7 year old student myself at present, so I am not going to join people questioning you - I know young children can easily do things sometimes that kind of scare me.  I just go "wow" that they wanted to and had the physical size to do it.


Itu, is your son actually playing the full score or playing from ear or an arrangement?  It strikes me that we have all assumed he is playing the full thing without even knowing for sure.

I guess hyrst shares my amazement.
This thread is getting more and more interesting and i start understanding how easy Rach 2 must be. Kids can play this piece when only playing 1,5 year and without a teacher, and a 5 year old kid needs only 2 years to play this piece..... I start doubting my own 'talent' 

Gyzzzmo

[itu]

Itu, is your son actually playing the full score or playing from ear or an arrangement?  It strikes me that we have all assumed he is playing the full thing without even knowing for sure.

He is playing from the 136 page full score that his band director gave him. I have decided that I will try and find a teacher around here and talk to them. I will not be directing him to these forums. I came here asking for advice to better his ability and understanding and I am asked to make an exhibition out of him and prove what I see from him every day. He plays purely for his own enjoyment and as long as he enjoys it, I am going to encourage it.

His playing is far from perfect. I seen him making the same mistakes that many young musicians make, but I think there is a different reaction when the criticism comes from a parent, that is not proficient in piano, and and actual piano instructor. I may still try and make a video of him, but he gets weird and shy when I ask him to play specific pieces for me, but has no problem when I ask him questions about a piece what he is randomly practicing.

To those of you that actually tried to address my questions, I thank you for your input and will take what you said in to consideration.

[hyrst]

Good luck, Itu.  I wish him and you both very well.  It is a scary responsibility managing such a talent - and maybe you need a teacher as much as he does just so you know how to support and encourage him and to give you the confidence that he has every opportunity open if he should wish to follow it. 

The last thing you want to do is frustrate or embarrass him.  I know with my little 'prodigy' she manages well when she is allowed to be natural.  As soon as she tries too hard something of the talent and spontaneity is hindered.  There seems to be a fine line between directing this talent and 'training' it.  Perhaps many of us who have worked so hard are too 'trained' - yet knowledge and purpose and control are essential to a masterful performance.  If you find a teacher, I suggest you look for someone who is willing to gradually reign in the skills while not smothering the passions.  They need to accept mistakes as a process of refining. 

Just to illustrate, my little student was learning things so quickly.  I decided to take the risk of seeing how she would cope with pieces such as Chopin's waltzes and nocturnes.  She did cope well and her enthusiasm grew.  I overlooked things she didn't get right, things I hadn't finished teaching her - such as cross rhythms flowing properly.  She played intermediate pieces perfectly in a few days, so I figured she would just have a more challenging and fun place to learn some basic skills.  She did play very musically - just some concepts not yet acquired by a 6 year old after 18 months of lessons.  (By the way, many people here said it was not possible for her to play these pieces - you're not alone on this response.)  I took her to a Russian trained teacher.  She insisted my student was playing above her ability because she didn't have these concepts yet.  She had her play 2 hours of scales and that was about it.  I am glad my student only had one lesson with this teacher.  She started losing the natural ease of her playing - she became more 'normal' and was finding it hard to play these higher level pieces anymore.  She was all concerned about actions and stopped listening and living through the music.  I have done retraining with her and she is again playing higher pieces - and now well.  We used the things she had learnt about technique and again found her 'ease'.  (There was a place for this teacher's approach, but it needed a balance.)  She now plays properly / technically at higher level, but I doubt she would have done if she had remained with a teacher who was more concerned with accuracy in the short term rather than an interesting environment for a gifted child to learn skills.  I hope this makes sense. 

Be careful who you find as a teacher.  Watch your son's responses and if his playing is becoming stilted or more refined.  Watch if he is enjoying his music, with some work thrown in, or if he is losing his naturalness. 

[hyrst]

Another thought, Itu...

The responses here might actually be very informative and even the unhelpful ones are useful.  Remember that pianists are people - some have good understanding and acceptance of others and some have their own strongly determined ideas and find it difficult to allow new things in as plausible.  You will find that same thing with teachers - who are also people even if they are professionals in their fields.   

Now you know more about the possible attitudes you and your son might receive from teachers.  You might find some who say "wow" and are so initmidated that they can't teach anything useful to your son.  You might find some who say "he can't really play that" even if it is right in front of them.  They might not give him the chance to grow.  On the other hand, the first time you might even be lucky enough to find somebody with enough understanding and experience with gifted people that they know how to sculpt and teach him while using a level of piece he finds satisfying and fun and musical.  Don't give up too quick - take everything with an attitude of what you can positively learn from it rather than what other poeple perceive things to be.  Accept and fogive as much as you want it for yourself.

On the other hand, your son is too young to take this point of view and you need to protect him and prepare him for acceptance and rejection at the right times in the empowering sense.  I wish we lived in a world where things were just and fair - but we don't.  People find others hard to accept if they do not understand them.  Sometimes they leave alone, other times they either try to understand but cause some pain in the process or they try to change the person into something they can understand.  THis is just life!

If you are serious about a teacher, start asking yourself why, exactly, YOU want him to have a teacher.  Do you want him to use his talent?  Do you feel out of your depth?  Other possibilities.  List them for yourself and then take them to your son.  How does he respond?  Does he want to play for fun or perhaps perform concertos or solos?  Does he want to play for friends or competitions or just in secrecy?  Does he want to play well or just well enough?  Since none of us know everything, is he willing to share his expereinces and to also get advice?  But, start with sorting out what you need first, in your own mind. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Some of us actually know quite a bit about the piano. Enough to laugh at someone who says they play the Rach 3 after 1.5 years, and FROM NOTHING. People must be so bored to create make believe threads up. The fact that itu has flinched and reacted at my gentle hint that this might be false just supports my opinion that this is actually false. Plus 100% the posts from itu are about this crazy topic, it's all very tongue in cheek.

If itu has shared their sons talents with others, or even spoke about it, you will get people denying that you are telling the truth. So it shouldn't be a first that it is said, unless you have kept him locked up in a cupboard.

Post a recording or video of his playing. Because I have seen some people say heres a recording of some big piece and they play it like trash and it doesn't prove anything.

[gyzzzmo]

I managed to teach a 5 year old the Rach 3, but it took 2 years.

And i do hope this is sarcasm?

[itu]

Some of us actually know quite a bit about the piano.

That is the reason I came here in the first place. I figured that people that actually played and taught might be a bit more knowledgeable about this than me.

Plus 100% the posts from itu are about this crazy topic, it's all very tongue in cheek

The topic of this thread was about lessons being benificial to someone who was self-taught and I named the current piece that he is playing as a basis for the difficulty level that he can play. This post was not meant to be about proving to people that I do not even know that he can play a particular song. Some of you here turned it into that. That is not the point at all. Does he do things incorrecty? Sure he does, but I do not know the proper way to fix it. Would I like him to learn the "proper" ways to play? Of course, but I do not want to detract from the enjoyment he is getting from this. That is why I came here to ask.

No, I have not made any other posts in any other threads, because I only had a question about this particular topic and most of the other posts in this forum do not pertain to me since I do not play, although I have read through many of them.

If itu has shared their sons talents with others, or even spoke about it, you will get people denying that you are telling the truth. So it shouldn't be a first that it is said, unless you have kept him locked up in a cupboard.

He has played for many people, but he has been the one to decide to do it. I've never told him that he needs to perform for an audience to prove himself. He seeks out opportunities on his own. I suppose I could track down every person that he has played for and they could post here and tell you that they have seen and heard the same things that I have, but doing that or posting a video is just plain silly when all I asked for was some advice on lessons.

[ahinton]

I managed to teach a 5 year old the Rach 3, but it took 2 years.

And the student concerned was backward, so by the time he/she had learnt the concerto he/she had attained the age of three...

Well, of course...

Best,

Alistair

[mad_max2024]

Maybe by "playing the Rach3" he means "clumsily sightreading the sheets for the Rach3"

I used to believe I could play Chopin's nocturnes when I was a kid, until I heard a recording of them... 

[mrba1979]

  I came here asking for advice to better his ability and understanding and I am asked to make an exhibition out of him and prove what I see from him every day. 

If you are still reading this post I asked for a video not because I needed you to prove something, but in order to answer the question properly, it would be necessary to watch him play.  Depending on his skill level you may have needed something more than an average piano teacher.  I have seen amazing feats and accomplishments which have lead me to believe anything is possible.

However there are some inconsistency's in your post which lead me to believe you are not as truth full as you could be.  First you say he plays for people and groups, but would be rather shy to make a video.  Hmmm..  Plus he has a band director who must think he is talented enough to give him the Rach 3.  So he should be used to playing for pleasure but also in the context of showing off.

Secondly you are way to defensive.  I have been on many piano forums and this one is truly unique in its expertise and passion for the instrument.  If you are writing off this forum because of a couple of negative comments I am not sure if you belong here, and now I doubt the capabilities of which you boast of your son.  For his sake I hope what you say is true.

[gyzzzmo]

It massivly depends HOW the kid is playing that concerto. If he playes it like 'perfectly' he only needs some masterclasses, if he sucks balls he should definitely get a teacher to play some pieces wich are for his level.
So no way of telling you what he should do unless you get a recording of him on this forum.

[lostinidlewonder]

And i do hope this is sarcasm?

Yeah I'm being really sarcastic, really I am.

And the student concerned was backward, so by the time he/she had learnt the concerto he/she had attained the age of three...

Very correct ahinton. She is actually now back to the placenta stage.

The topic of this thread was about lessons being benificial to someone who was self-taught and I named the current piece that he is playing as a basis for the difficulty level that he can play.

Please tell us all the other pieces that he can play. I wonder if it is the entire Chopin and Liszt etudes... Maybe he has already climbed the Sorabji mountain.

No, I have not made any other posts in any other threads, because I only had a question about this particular topic and most of the other posts in this forum do not pertain to me since I do not play, although I have read through many of them.

Why doesn't your son, who is obviously very interested in the piano, write on pianostreet himself? Surely someone who has so much interest and has gone through such legendary progress in piano would have interesting questions and opinions on the study of piano, and music on a macroscopic level.

I suppose I could track down every person that he has played for and they could post here and tell you that they have seen and heard the same things that I have, but doing that or posting a video is just plain silly when all I asked for was some advice on lessons.

Getting every single person who has heard him to post on here to verify is a little dramatic Posting a video is not silly at all if you say that your son plays top class piano. But the thing is, we have had people say they play big pieces but when we listen to it it sounds very bad. I won't name any names out of respect, but certainly if you say he can play Rach 3, thts fine but at what standard? This is critically important, and we can only tell you what we think by seeing a video or listening to a recording. Words and people opinions can be deceiving, or at least misinterpreted. Posting your sons performance is not to "prove" anything, but will give you better response as to where your son should go to. When you audition for a university they don't listen to you talk to them and tell them about what you can do and how fast you did it, they simply ask you to play for them and then make a decision from that.

[communist]

yes we do need a video, i am not saying you are lying because for all we know he could be the best piano genius since J.S Bach

[jinfiesto]

I do not think you are lying either, but I think that we can all agree that we need a video to accurately assess your question and decide if your son truly needs lessons or not, or what he needs. I think that it would be very helpful if you could post him playing something representative of his skill level, not necessarily the Rach 3, and preferably something he himself believes himself to play well. I won't demand the Rach 3 as proof of your son's abilities. Anything he believes to be representative will do.

[tds]

can i take lessons from your son? should i audition first?

[dan101]

A student like your son would need a very open-minded teacher that could balance traditional learning with the teaching of improvising skills. I have a student like that currently. He was presented to me by a teacher that had trouble teaching outside of the box.


Good luck. It sounds like you have a very intelligent and independent child.

[craig137]

Itu: "He is playing from the 136 page full score that his band director gave him."

If you'll forgive me, I'm still confused as to this full score "he's playing FROM".  Is he playing all 136 pages, or 'from the score' just a few pages?  There's a gargantuan difference, and any answers about teachers for him will vary greatly depending on that.
Heck; I play 'from the full score' of TE #1, even though it's only half a page!  I don't think Hyrst's question has been answered.  And I for one sure am curious, because if it's like over 50 pages of it; do you know how rare that is in just a year and a half??

[etcetra]

I have a hard time believing that a high school director would give their student Rach 3 to play.. To me this band director sounds reckless and irresponsible.. If i was a band director i would not give a piece that big to their 8th grade students, no matter how talented they are, because its way beyond the scope of things I can teach.  how can a band director give something challenging without assessing the risk? he might be putting his students through a lot of frustration, and even injury. 

Not just that, if I was a band director, I would talk to you immediately and strongly urge you to send your son to music school..or study with the top pianists you can find, because he has an exceptional talent.  I am surprised that nobody who has heard your son play has done the same, because a talent like that would be too obvious to ignore..

If i was a parent, i wouldn't want to push my kids too hard either, but if your kid really has that much talent, if he is the next mozart, it's my responsibility to make sure i find someone who can nurture his talent.. i will find an expert, the best teacher available, or i will find someone who knows someone.. i'll do whatever i can do to get him exposed to the best education.. arrange meeting with teachers..and let my kid know that he has a rare gift,  and tell him that whatever education he needs is available for him.. i dont think i would be a good parent if i did anything less than that.

[G.W.K]

It's never too late for lessons. However, the younger you are...the easier it is to learn and the longer you'll have to use that skill.

I agree with everyone else though about it being odd for a high school teacher to give a student "Rach 3" to play.

G.W.K

[etcetra]

yea it would be more believable if it was chopin etudes, or something like fantasie impromptu.. There are plenty of challenging solo piano pieces, why Rach 3? Is his high school orchestra going to play it, or is someone going to play the orchestral reduction? 

[thierry13]

Well... there's playing Rach 3, and there's ... playing rach 3 ! I printed the full-score for Rach 3 in my first year of piano playing as well, clumsily reading trough the score, I could get most of the patterns running, I could read the most complex parts, there were even sections I could play not so bad! Now I'm a university student in piano performance, I've been playing for about 4 and a half year and I wouldn't even learn a movement from it yet! At that time I did the same thing with Liszt sonata, Tchaik 1, islamey, etc. you name it. And yet, now I wouldn't play them yet ... Tchaik 1 and islamey I could, but certainly not the Liszt sonata. Technically I could manage most of the repertoire including Rach 3 I guess, but there's more to it than playing the notes ... Your kid needs lesson and I would highly suggest that he takes them, but that means going back WAYYYY lower than rachmaninoff's third piano concerto to have a solid education ...