Is it ok to switch from playing classical to Jazz ?

[dora96]

Hi all,

I have been playing classical music for 30 years. I am studying and taking lesson for advance diploma. Recently I find that classical is so demanding and hard to make a living even though I have the qualification. Classical music is not sort of music for entertainment for the general public.  I am also very active in church service as a pianist. However, I find that I am so frustrated about playing contemporary gospel music and some of the music I need to make up my own harmonization. I don't have good knowledge about music theory. Once, I passed my exam, most of the stuff have been forgotten.

I have been watching youtube for self learning, how to playing interesting gospel music and the rhythm. It makes me feel I am so ridged with classical, I can play very well with most of the famous masterpiece, Beethoven, Mozart, Chopin ect.. but I don't know how to improvise with other stuff like the passing chords, chords progression, the run and the fill and transpose. The different style of the playing music. I just love to have freedom to play and make up my own stuff. Is there anyone that has the switch from classical to Jazz? For my level, how quick can I master jazz?

 

[timothy42b]

You have the technical skills and I'm pretty sure you've absorbed sufficient theory over the years. 

I think you're probably going the wrong direction for learning nonclassical playing.  I think it demands a different strategy (I could be wrong because I'm not sure what your classical strategy is.) 

Don't take me for an expert, I'm not and don't claim to be.  But here's some advice anyway.  (It is the internet, after all - grin!)  I do have some logic behind my suggestions, but who knows?

1.  Solo practice sessions are no longer useful at your stage. 
2.  You need to listen to recorded music of the type you want to play, a minimum of 2 hours of listening for every hour of practice.  Buy an iPod, fill it up, immerse yourself.  Yes, eventually you'll transcribe what they're playing, but you don't have time now, you have a backlog of listening to fill. 
3.  You need to do what every beginning guitar student does:  play along with the radio.  Every day, for as much time as you can spare.  And you need to sit in with as many groups as will let you. 

I think this is the exact opposite of classical training.  I think you do long solo practice sessions, you do little listening because you don't want to contaminate your interpretation, and you never play interactively in "real time", except Sunday at church when you struggle.

I confess I'm curious.  In the past you've asked a number of questions and I've responded with well meaning but inept suggestions.  Have any of them been useful?  It's possible I'm so far off track, or so different in thought patterns, that there's no point to it. 

[communist]

it would probably be fine but you should study jazz a little bit first tho

[Bob]

Adding some jazz can't hurt.  I don't think you can completely get away from how you have studied piano though.  If you're used to thinking and practicing a certain way. 

I would get a teacher if you can find one.  I've been wanting to learn more jazz but a teacher would help just to push me along. 

I have seen a few books geared toward a classical player learning jazz.  "Jazz for Classical pianists" or something like that.

[etcetra]

I've talked to several accomplished jazz musicians, and most of them told me that you learned to play jazz by doing LOTS of transcriptions.  You transcribe solos from a record and you play along with them note by note, and you analyze what you like about it and make it a part of your playing.  I think that is the biggest difference between classical and jazz/gospel or other types of music .is that you  learn the music mostly by ear, and not from books.  It's a very different discipline that requires very different ways of practicing.. and if you want to master jazz, its better to think of it as a life-time pursuit, much like classical music.

Kenny Werner has some stuff about classical players switching to jazz on his site.. its under his telewebinar section

https://kennywernerlive.com/

[timothy42b]

 

I think that is the biggest difference between classical and jazz/gospel or other types of music .is that you  learn the music mostly by ear, and not from books.  It's a very different discipline that requires very different ways of practicing..

Good insight, but I think there's a critical difference buried in there that might even apply to classical practice.

Classical students often play slowly enough to get it perfect, then speed it up.  They disconnect themselves from "time." 

Nonclassical students play it at tempo from the beginning, then get it more and more perfect.  They are always playing connected to time. 

I think this distinction is fundamental (though I must be wrong, I'm the only one who seems to believe it - grin). 

[etcetra]

timothy42b,

I think you are making a really good point, its true that jazz and other types of music emphasize "time" a lot more than classical music.. I don't think they necessary play everything at tempo though.... we have to slow down our material just as much as classical musicians at first in order to be able to play them right, but in some ways we are more concerned about play it in time than playing the right notes.

I think another aspect that is different from classical music is how non-classical musicians use their left hand.  It requires a different kind of coordination, because your left is improvising just as much as your right hand when you are comping.  Again, its how you are able to play two different rhythmically in time that makes a pianist "swing" or "groove".

The rhythmic aspect of jazz/funk/gospel music is probably one thing that classical musicians usually have problem with.. its hard to describe, but its like your language, you only get better it at time over time with exposure. 

I might be generalizing too much, but the concept of time is more "subjective" to classical musician than it is for non-classical musicians.. I remember seeing my college choral director who was very accomplished, but he had a very difficult time conducting to a click track on a studio recording session...

[rene_ceballos]

Hello Dora96,

My complete formal music education was classical as well. I discovered that you can't really live from playing classical music alone early, and started playing other piano genres, notably jazz.

To tell you the truth, my experience was "a whole year of darkness looking for the light". It really frustrated me that I could play 10-12 flawlessly in a bad day, it took me hours to find out a clever way to mount a simple scale on a b5#13 chord.

Most semi-pro or amateur classical pianists I know do not really study most music they play. They don't really have a clue on how the harmony moves from one chord into another, and how the voices make that harmony flow. As one friend of mine would say, "I just read and play it".

Jazz piano is actually much more related to composition than it is to piano technique. In theory of thought, it's known as "real-time composition". Ironically, Jazz borrowed this from early classical, where realtime impro was encouraged. It was later than the horrorified establishment banned it as "unserious" 

This means, as correctly stated in the thread earlier, you will need to assemble a whole new set of skills. And listen to a lot-lot-lot of music. As classical music spins around what is known as "standard repertoire", Jazz spins around "standards". It's a collection of hundreds of songs and themes composing the Jazz language.

But after some time, light appears! Here's a few tips which worked great for me:

- When hunting for materials, try not to pick sheet books with the whole arrangement (i.e. classical-scores-like) Those will only keep you in the territory you are already fluent. What you need is any variant of "Real Book", "Fake Book", etc. Those which only have chord symbols and basic melody. There are thousands of scores like those in the web for free.

- Once you get a particular song or theme you're interested in, try and get all possible versions of it by other pianists. YouTube is your friend.

- Have a realistic goal. Crafting good melodic improvisational lines for one song, where you just don't reuse canned material, can take two weeks (more at the beginning). Meaning you can have a beautiful reper of ~25 songs a year.

- Go see as many artists as you can. Talk to them. Steal... err.. <cough> borrow their chord positions, tensions and the basic syllabic melodic elements you like. Take some classes if possible.

- Positions for chords are different for solo jazz piano, gospel, lounge, jazz trio, etc. You can't do them all at once so you'll need to target a sub-style. Then, you need to memorize those positions and be able to do the basic progressions. Start with the basic II-V-I. You just can't have too many resources for that.

Hope this helps, all the best.

[etcetra]

rene_ceballos ,

you are making a very interesting point.. i posted a while ago about how important it is for classical pianists to have compositional understanding of what they play.  I do think that classical pianists tend to play their repritore without compositional knowledge of what they are playing too.  For example, when i was learning classical music, I could usually get away with playing hemiola without really understanding or hearing the rhythm in my head, and I felt that others were doing that too. 

I was also surprised to see how many college piano students were unable to compose or even play simple V7 Chords. That aspect of classical piano playing always puzzled me.  I think its part of the reason why some classical pianists tend to underestimate the difficulty in learning the genre.  One of these days I should do a post explaining a Bill Evan's transcription I did to illustrate that mastering jazz, like classical is a life long pursuit that is equally challenging.

[thierry13]

No it's not okay. So not.

[dora96]

https://au.youtube.com/watch?v=uoeP10gDPMM&feature=related

Can you play like this man?

I want to play something like this. But for me, I don't know how to add different notes and chords and run into the music. I am so eager, and curios to find out. I know the style and practice method is different from playing classical. How should I learn it by ear, I am just not used to it.  It is inspiring to see someone playing like this and so creative. But come to do it, I just become blank when I put the score in front of me.

[Petter]

https://au.youtube.com/watch?v=uoeP10gDPMM&feature=related

Can you play like this man?

I want to play something like this. But for me, I don't know how to add different notes and chords and run into the music. I am so eager, and curios to find out. I know the style and practice method is different from playing classical. How should I learn it by ear, I am just not used to it.  It is inspiring to see someone playing like this and so creative. But come to do it, I just become blank when I put the score in front of me.

By what I heard I think you can basically play like that, itīs just scales and arpeggios after all...Learn what scales and arpeggios that fit what chords. Alot of simple triad works well as fill out over dominant chords. Lets say you have a C7 chord and you play the C,E and the Bb in your left hand, and play triads like A major or Eb minor or D major or the dim arpeggios Db dim or C dim (that one sounds a bit out though, still fun).
Learn all pentatonic scales and what chords they work with, you could probably get away playing those for 2 hours at a garden party...
Practice it on tunes after, look for easy standard tunes to start with. Like "All the things you are in Ab flat" First chord: "Fm7"  What scales works on that chord? Ab major works well but Eb major could also work. What triads work? Eb major works, F minor works, Ab major works, and C minor works. Next chord: "Bbm7" What scale works? Ab major again, or if you start from Bb (Bb dorian scale)  What triads would sound good? F minor, Bb minor, Ab major Db major.

Learn the whole song and learn what each tone from the scales or triad means in its context, related to the chord your playing but also related to the key you are in (All the things you are modulates a few times) You donīt have to hear pitch wise. Just get a feel for the sound.

Example if you play a Eb G Bb over a Fm9 chord, what functions does those notes have over the chord? Eb is the seventh, g is the ninth and Bb is the eleven

Go along like that around the whole tune in each key. All the things you are is basically just the circle of fifths in two different keys.

Make up phrases that you think sound good out of the material from the scales and triad and practice them, displace them metrically. Practice it with metronome and learn the form. Jazz solo is basically the form over and over on the same material as the melody. Get a abersold play along book like https://aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=V55DS&Category_Code=
for example and play with the record and try not to lose yourself in the form.

[etcetra]

Also the Jazz Piano Book by Mark Levine is a good book to have.. the book will go over a lot of voicings you need to know as a pianist.. in my opinion its a must have for anyone learning jazz.  There are a lot of stuff out there on youtube that might be helpful too.. look up jazz piano or gospel piano on youtube and you can usually find a instructional video

https://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=f41c5dJw0-4&feature=related
https://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=AB8VA1lAvPY

[ryanyee]

well i wouldn't do that cos it will ruin my concept, feeling and all those stuff about classical music and especially when playing classical music.