Music is sound, not writing

[ollymuxworthy]

I have played the piano for eleven years now and I have never been able to read music (yes, spit all you like) - I can play Fantasie Impromptu no problem and I'm now learning Gnomenreigen (by ear). Just wondering, does anyone else learn in this way, or are we all sight-readers here?

[m19834]

Well, I don't have very much time at the moment, but I simply have to respond  .  I used to play this way A LOT.  Though, I do know how to read music.  In all honesty, I am still working on learning how to do both without detracting from my aural experience.  What I think is interesting though, is that most people would profess for others to use their ears MORE, and essentially, the purpose of the score is simply there to relay information until you don't need it anymore and can just go by ear and what you have inside of you.  One of my mantras lately is that the point of any system is to grow beyond the system to where you don't need it anymore.  So, when people learn to read notes on the page and connect those with keys on the piano, maybe they learn little phrases like "every good boy deserves fudge" or whatnot.  They use that until they can look at a note and know instantly what it is.  It is not ideal to be stuck forever in a phase of having to count out lines and spaces.  So, the point of the little phrase is to serve as a kind of crutch until it's not needed anymore (though some people never grow out of it), and I think that it's essentially the same way, actually, with an entire score.

Okay. bye bye for now.

[m19834]

I am back and was thinking about this.  The thing is, music is not necessarily just in the sound, either, at least that is not what I think.  I think that "sound" is only a model of sorts of something that we are still learning how to percieve.  But, despite that, the written page and the symbols, well, they are a model of a model.  I wouldn't wish to be incapable of reading music and only playing by ear any more than I would wish to be incapable of reading a language and be able to only speak it ... I don't think.  In the case of language, it would be impossible for me to be a real part of this forum, for example, if I didn't know how to read and type, and that would be ... well ... really strange for me  .  I think it's similar in some way with music.  If not for the symbols, it would be much more difficult to pass along any kind of communication.  And, when I think about people like Bach and Mozart and Beethoven and many others, if not for these symbols, we wouldn't know really anything at all of their music.

Anyway, just recently I am starting to see something I haven't seen before.  Here is something I wrote in another thread that got me thinking about all of this :

"We are seemingly limited by everything, at this point, but especially by our own perceptions of everything around us.  The only time we are not limited is when we are glimpsing the eternal, and as all-encompassing as that can be, our general perception of life still exists as a "problem" in working out what seems to be a timeline.  And on that timeline, the glimpsing of eternity is a dot, which served as some small step in our progress."

I realized that this dot on the timeline is actually kind of what reading music (and how that relates to sound) is like to me.  Just imagine though that every individual dot that you see on the page feels like what I described above... hee hee.

[rc]

 

 

*rc's head implodes*

[pianowolfi]

 

*rc's head implodes*

rofl don't worry, just enjoy it's all about the flow after all

[Petter]

Music is neither sound or writing, it´s muscle memory?
 /ducks

[m19834]

Music is neither sound or writing, it´s muscle memory?
 /ducks

I actually think that's part of it.  I mean, my "highest" human concept of playing music is having everything about the act working in perfect harmony, which obviously includes what we percieve of as muscles and muscle memory.  I wouldn't say it's just that though, of course, just like I wouldn't say it's just sound or just on the page.  I actually don't even think it's truly the combination, exactly, but all of it working in harmony and the experience that creates is pretty close, I would say.

[00range]

Just wondering, does anyone else learn in this way, or are we all sight-readers here?

I learn through sheets, I think you will find that most here do as well. The reason  is simply that, while it is possible to learn complex classical music through ear, it is much more time efficient to learn to read.

[pianowolfi]

 /ducks

Never duck unless you're Donald...

“Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy.”

LvB

[cygnusdei]

Just as light has a dual nature as electromagnetic wave and photon particles, I think music also has a dual nature in design and execution.

Sound is so fleeting - now you hear it, a second later you don't. If music is as fleeting as sound, we're in trouble. Luckily, music is also permanent, as safely recorded in the score (design). But without execution (performance), music is dormant.

[gyzzzmo]

Music is neither sound or writing, it´s muscle memory?
 /ducks

Muscle memory is only for the playing, the actual music is the bigger picture inside the brains

[mrba1979]

Very insight-full lead of wisdom and philosophy, but I think I will answer the simple question.  I read music.  It is a universal system of communication which is something I am very comfortable with.  To be practical and not philosophical, what if you hear the piece wrong?  Or say that you have perfect pitch and can replicate entire pieces just by ear.  What if the performance you replicate was wrong.  This tends to lead to a game of telephone.  As it is I can take a piece of music I have never heard, and play it to extent at which the composer intended with my own personal inflections.  If you rely simple on sound alone then you are bound to have first heard the music.  Which also means you are trapped into hearing an others interpretation. Then the question simply becomes are you performing a carbon copy of what you heard.

If you have the ability to not only play by ear, but also read music I believe this is the best scenario. So my advice would be to due both.  Still play by ear but start dedicating a portion of your practice to reading music. 

[00range]

As it is I can take a piece of music I have never heard, and play it to extent at which the composer intended with my own personal inflections.  If you rely simple on sound alone then you are bound to have first heard the music.  Which also means you are trapped into hearing an others interpretation. Then the question simply becomes are you performing a carbon copy of what you heard.

I have to somewhat disagree with this. I say somewhat, because what you say has merit, but only insomuch as it may be more difficult to form your own interpretation learning to play by ear; I don't think that it is impossible, however.

Of course, if it is an obscure piece that may only have one or two professional recording, then you are, of course much more limited, not to mention the thousands of wonderful pieces that have no available recordings.

[mad_max2024]

The more things you know, the less limitations you have.

I don't think you NEED to know how to read sheets to play music, but if you do you are less limited in what you can do.
I have always been a prolific sight reader which enabled me to play virtually anything they placed in front of me on the spot (though poorly of course), so if I pick up a sheet book I can sample the songs in it without ever having listened to them. If the songs are simple I can even pull off a small performance at an acceptable level for not very demanding friends.
I can also write songs for a band I'm playing with in musical notation (useful for melody lines) and can more easily understand theory books and stuff that uses that notation.
You don't have to know how to read to recite a poem, but it's awkward to ask people to read them to you so you can memorize them. It makes you dependent.

So pretty much my point is this.
Reading music is not a necessity, I can immagine a lot of musicians went through their lives without reading a single note.
But it sure helps and gives you a lot more freedom and independence.

Btw, I loved reading Karli's posts. That was a lovely exposition. 

[m19834]

Btw, I loved reading Karli's posts. That was a lovely exposition. 

Thank you .

[goldentone]

As it is I can take a piece of music I have never heard, and play it to extent at which the composer intended with my own personal inflections.  If you rely simple on sound alone then you are bound to have first heard the music.  Which also means you are trapped into hearing an others interpretation. Then the question simply becomes are you performing a carbon copy of what you heard.

And from what you said, we might rightly say, then, that the score is the untainted tabula rasa into which we can pour ourselves.

[Petter]

“Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy.”

LvB

That doesn´t compute with the shitty salary

[gyzzzmo]

I suppose the writing/sheets are a tool for music that makes learning music alot easier. The music itself though has to be played by ear and thats why people have to memorize pieces to play them really well.

gyzzzmo

[darcyhj]

Playing by ear is fine, but I think when you start playing twentieth century music especially the twelve tone and just purely atonal music you will have a lot of trouble, I mean it's hard reading the music. It's like reading a book, sure you can listen to books for a while but sooner or later you need to learn how to read, and it's not that hard.

[term]

I can read music, but i also learn music by ear. I think it's a great idea. I tried to learn fugues by listening to gould recordings with moderate success, i managed the cp1 & 9 (with some mistakes however). It's easier if you just read the score, but by ear is fun and doable.

[ollymuxworthy]

Don't get me wrong, I can read music... to an extent. What I can't do is sight read, which my old piano teacher found most irritating at first. However, he found it fantastic that he could play a piece through once and I could play it back to him. The only thing that would hold me back would be fingerwork, but I can work on that without sheet music.

Atonal music is no problem either - I can hear what the notes are, I just have to remember it.

Yes, it can be very useful to be able to sight-read, but as long as you know how to read music (and therefore write it), you should get along fine. 

[m19834]

as long as you know how to read music (and therefore write it), you should get along fine. 

Yes, I agree.  However, I would say that for me to put my musical thoughts into little dots is PAINstaking at worst, and all-consuming at best.  I once stayed up an entire night writing an invention because it absolutely possessed me.  I still have some hurddles to overcome and should probably take things little by little  .  It's like I keep wanting *everything* to come out at once and it simply won't !!  Ha ha ... maybe I should just draw one HUGE circle on a HUGE piece of staff paper, paint it a particular color, and call it music  .  I hear they are getting away with things like that in the world of visual arts. 

Anyway, cheers !

[00range]

Ha ha ... maybe I should just draw one HUGE circle on a HUGE piece of staff paper, paint it a particular color, and call it music  .  I hear they are getting away with things like that in the world of visual arts. 

If you're going to take the leap, why stop there? Just hang the blank piece of paper up on the wall, and call it a masterpiece. 

Although I have to admit, the writing that always seems to come along with this "art" is, out of necessity, very well thought out and interesting... at least until you see the... "art". So it might be that the effort you'd need to put into writing about it would be more than making something actually good.

An more on topic with writing music... have you tried using a notation software? I don't compose often, but I can copy things like a movement of Beethoven sonatas in a few hours. And a nice side benefit is that it is great for your sight-reading too, especially if you aren't very good to begin with.

[m19834]

An more on topic with writing music... have you tried using a notation software? I don't compose often, but I can copy things like a movement of Beethoven sonatas in a few hours. And a nice side benefit is that it is great for your sight-reading too, especially if you aren't very good to begin with.

I don't know for sure if you are talking to me or not with this paragraph, but yes, I do use notation software.  And, I just have to be clear that it's not that I can't read and write music, it's just there has been some kind of block for me with some aspects of my relationship with music and the piano and how that translates to dots on a page, for example.  I mean, I "get" the notation (though I am not currently the world's most amazing sightreader -- yet), it's just that I spent a number of years (about 10 (from about age 2), actually) on my own, mainly just improvising and playing by ear (though I could swear I read a portion of Fur Elise when I was young), before I was able to have a teacher. 

What that means in my case is that I had my own relationship with the instrument, and my own relationship with the sound (involving a pretty heavy dose of my own imagination as well, as in, these things meant pretty specific-to-me things by that point), which all happened to be fairly developed before I had to start trying to connect with dots on the page as "music" in formal lessons (and by that time it was some kind of torture starting in a method book, repeating middle C, alternating hands (*pulls hair out just thinking about it*)).  Reading the page has been a pretty intellectual activity for me, whereas music and the piano have been, for me, some kind of *completely* different land than that altogether.  I am just starting to be able to really connect it all together in a way that makes sense to me through and through, but I do think that writing and transcribing more music would help.

[db05]

Of course, music is sound and not writing. So is language, see? Or rather, maybe music is also a language. Even though language is sound, we also have written language, which is how we're communicating right now.

It is good to have all: quick ears, eyes and hands. But the abilities of individuals vary. Some had good ears, while some are great sight readers, and some have awesome technique but can't read a thing. Please don't bash an aspect of piano playing just because it's not your forte. ('Cause it sounds like that to me.) Peace.

[pianisten1989]

Of course, music is sound and not writing. So is language, see? Or rather, maybe music is also a language. Even though language is sound, we also have written language, which is how we're communicating right now.

Yeah, that's deep :O

[db05]

Yeah, that's deep :O

Is that a good thing, LOL?

[00range]

I don't know for sure if you are talking to me or not with this paragraph, but yes, I do use notation software.  And, I just have to be clear that it's not that I can't read and write music, it's just there has been some kind of block for me with some aspects of my relationship with music and the piano and how that translates to dots on a page, for example.  I mean, I "get" the notation (though I am not currently the world's most amazing sightreader -- yet), it's just that I spent a number of years (about 10 (from about age 2), actually) on my own, mainly just improvising and playing by ear (though I could swear I read a portion of Fur Elise when I was young), before I was able to have a teacher. 

What that means in my case is that I had my own relationship with the instrument, and my own relationship with the sound (involving a pretty heavy dose of my own imagination as well, as in, these things meant pretty specific-to-me things by that point), which all happened to be fairly developed before I had to start trying to connect with dots on the page as "music" in formal lessons (and by that time it was some kind of torture starting in a method book, repeating middle C, alternating hands (*pulls hair out just thinking about it*)).  Reading the page has been a pretty intellectual activity for me, whereas music and the piano have been, for me, some kind of *completely* different land than that altogether.  I am just starting to be able to really connect it all together in a way that makes sense to me through and through, but I do think that writing and transcribing more music would help.

I gotcha. I thought that maybe what you were saying was that it simply took you a long time to physically write everything out, as opposed to a more mental block.

[m19834]

I gotcha. I thought that maybe what you were saying was that it simply took you a long time to physically write everything out, as opposed to a more mental block.

Yeah, I can transcribe anything as fast as needs be.  It's more a mental block when it comes to the idea of expressing the music through the notation, either my own music and putting that into notation, or taking a score and sightreading the bejeebers out of a it in a way that is actually musical (my "mind" always tries to stop and smell the roses  ).

But, I was thinking about this as it relates to one of my latest improvs, and if I were to try to notate that.  If we have what could be called something like a cm7 chord as the central idea, sure, I could just notate that as such.  What bothers me and where I get "hung up" is when, for example, I feel a portion of that chord (or one note) as though it is maybe an inch away from me, while perhaps another note of the chord is sitting on the mountain top over there, and maybe the other two notes are orbiting around the earth.  To me, my mind is already blown in thinking about how to notate that, and dynamic markings may provide a little morsel of an idea, but they are not going to do the concept justice.  I guess what it is, is that my concept of the music (or my experience) is often more dimensional than the written page can show.  I realized that for me to more accurately "notate" how one particular note may be for me, I could do something like a computer video from the perspective of somebody flying through a valley in the Alps... if you see what I mean.

Yeah.  So, that is where I feel stuck.  But, then again, I guess I am realizing that any composer means the music to be much more faceted than the notation on the piece of paper can depict (and I suppose this is part of the great responsibility of the teachers and performers).  Probably I just need to keep learning more and get better at all of it.