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What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ? (Read 3207 times)

Offline Karli

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Offline db05

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #1 on: November 20, 2008, 04:54:02 PM »
Just a thought, if you don't mind.

http://www.aruffo.com/eartraining/research/phase7.htm
Scroll down to June 18, 2003. Lattice and Tomatoes. What do you think of WA Mathieu's harmonic lattice?
I'm sinking like a stone in the sea,
I'm burning like a bridge for your body

Offline javacisnotrecognized

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #2 on: November 20, 2008, 04:56:37 PM »
While an in depth response will have to await my fully processing this idea, have you heard of or seen the "Music animation machine"? It is a program that creates a visual representation of music that could, for example, use a different color for every voice in a fugue. There are some videos uploaded here: http://youtube.com/smalin.

Offline Karli

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #3 on: November 20, 2008, 08:10:31 PM »
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Offline javacisnotrecognized

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #4 on: November 20, 2008, 09:13:12 PM »
I think it may be instructive to think of it as more of a process. Say you have a graph, like the first picture in the OP. For each change in tonal center you would figure out how all the the notes being used are from this tonal center, and it could be added to the graph as a line. Thus it forms a map of the relations between the tonal centers themselves, and the way the music is organized around each center. Is this kind of what you are talking about? (I think I saw this on an episode of Star Trek once)

Offline Karli

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #5 on: November 20, 2008, 09:35:20 PM »
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Offline Karli

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #6 on: November 21, 2008, 09:57:48 PM »
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Offline javacisnotrecognized

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #7 on: November 23, 2008, 06:19:06 AM »
If searched the entire universe, you would not find it. Do you know why?









It's inside you.

Offline db05

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #8 on: November 23, 2008, 09:10:56 AM »
I want to find the tonal center of the Universe  :).  There is, in my mind, some kind of lattice for all of existence, everything originating from one source.  And, that is the level I want to know music on, and that is how I want to express music.  I would like to express music from there.

I don't think there is ONE tonal center for everything, but different personal centers. Or maybe centers for different universes entirely. Imagine if we could map out the C major lattice and connect it to the different keys and extend that to infinity... that is just the 12 tones we use in Western music (assuming A around 440 Hz), in infinite octaves...

What about the other Hz that we don't use? What makes them out of tune? It's just because of the arbitrary A = 440 that we only hear these musical vibrations as "out of tune" or "strange". I think my tonal center is one of those.

Have you ever heard the band Mineral (coincidentally, my signature is from their lyrics)? A lot of rock bands are out of tune, but it seems that these guys are decidedly out of tune. I would try to sing along, but it sounds awful since my voice naturally gravitates to the "normal" scale. One of my favorites, yes, because I am "decidedly out of tune" myself. It just so happens that I got a practice piano 1 1/2 tones out of tune. But maybe it is destiny (law of attraction?). The piano gives a harsh sound, much like the bands I enjoy listening to. Somewhat "darker" than most pianos.
I'm sinking like a stone in the sea,
I'm burning like a bridge for your body

Offline Karli

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #9 on: November 23, 2008, 08:22:19 PM »
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Offline Petter

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"A gentleman is someone who knows how to play an accordion, but doesn't." - Al Cohn

Offline javacisnotrecognized

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #11 on: November 24, 2008, 05:56:28 AM »
If searched the entire universe, you would not find it. Do you know why?









It's inside you.
:) :)
That wasn't some kind of metaphorical statement. There are actual physical locations inside your body that mirror aspects of your music. Try to locate them.

Offline db05

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #12 on: November 24, 2008, 09:23:28 AM »
Ma'am Karli, you might be interested in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Compose-Yourself-Awakening-Rhythms-Life/dp/0738704180

I have a copy I got from a sale that I read once, but didn't make much of the exercises. I'm too lazy for that LOL. It relates the seven elements of music to the seven chakras and includes exercises for developing personal resonance. There is also an appendix of recommended listening at the end for the different styles = different chakras.
I'm sinking like a stone in the sea,
I'm burning like a bridge for your body

Offline Karli

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #13 on: November 24, 2008, 06:24:07 PM »
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Offline Karli

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #14 on: June 02, 2010, 08:58:19 PM »
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Offline Karli

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #15 on: June 03, 2010, 02:29:17 PM »
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Offline prometheus

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #16 on: June 03, 2010, 10:55:17 PM »
I don't think it makes sense to adopt some complex way of looking at something unless it adds something or explains something new.

I don't see a good way to relate every tone in 2 or 3 dimensions to the tonic. One thing makes most sense, imo and that's to give each tone a value on how strongly it want's to resolve to the tonic.

And this is incomplete information. Each note can be followed by each other note in the context of a certain tonic. If you keep it strictly tonal there's 6 values for each tone. And measuring this objectively is not easy.

As for tonal center. Each frequency is just as good as any other to be a tonal center because each tone has all the overtones and possible intervals every other tone has.

As for the function of a tonal center. It's function is to make music interesting by establishing the tonal center, weakening the tonal center, then strengthening and then reconfirm it. It is very analogies to how story plots develop.
"As an artist you don't rake in a million marks without performing some sacrifice on the Altar of Art." -Franz Liszt

Offline Karli

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #17 on: June 05, 2010, 04:42:58 PM »
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Offline Karli

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #18 on: June 05, 2010, 05:38:11 PM »
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Offline Karli

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #19 on: June 05, 2010, 05:57:48 PM »
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Offline pianowolfi

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #20 on: June 05, 2010, 05:59:00 PM »
Karli, fireheart :)


(This emoticon is supposed to represent a rib crushing Thalhug  ;D)

I think you might want to explore "Harmonia mundi" (or Harmonices mundi) by Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)

http://www.keplersdiscovery.com/Harmonies.html

I haven't read that yet but stumbled on it when I was doing a google search on "skeleton" "intervals"
after having read your last posts here. I'll definitely read that someday :)

P.S. I found a very interesting comment on that book here:

http://www.amazon.com/Harmony-Memoirs-American-Philosophical-Society/dp/0871692090?ie=UTF8

Quote
Today's scientists of all disciplines would do well to study Kepler's original work. This is not only a seminal work in the history of astronomy, but a case study in the creative process of discovery. By rejecting empiricism and sense certainty, Kepler used his mental instruments, geometry and music, to investigate the harmony which orders all fundamental physical processes. The same mental processes which make humans unique must be coherent with the principles of creation and development of the universe as a whole.


which, as I think, represents the essence of it. Music not only as random creativity but as a creative force and a "divine joy of creating a world".

 

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #21 on: June 05, 2010, 06:34:40 PM »
bah.  I love that this thread is hiding in some secret place in some secret, barely used, barely noticed child's board.  Entire lifetimes are living themselves out in my head right now ... so what ?

It's the price and the advantage of being here incognito.  

Offline Karli

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #22 on: June 05, 2010, 08:03:47 PM »
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Offline pianowolfi

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #23 on: June 05, 2010, 08:16:52 PM »
I hope it can be more to you than only some links, as to me it is something that I feel deeply inside, music (the Logos) constitutes the world, dynamically. As I said before I haven't read it yet, except some little excerpts and these little excerpts have electrified me.

Offline Karli

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #24 on: June 05, 2010, 08:39:24 PM »
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Offline pianowolfi

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #25 on: June 05, 2010, 08:46:12 PM »
When you go beyond emergency and complete agitation and keep your track there will be (burn) still enthusiasm :)

Offline Karli

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #26 on: June 08, 2010, 06:06:36 AM »
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Offline pianowolfi

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #27 on: June 09, 2010, 08:23:32 AM »
You're right, Wolfi, thank you :).  Very much.  

Glad it helped :)
Regarding the subject, I think that there is a whole huge metaphysical idea involved which is difficult to discuss and might go beyond the scopes of this board.
A music-theoretical approach to it might be possible though. Perhaps you can develop it?

I just had the idea to start at the difference between something so basic as F# and Gb
There is something in us that "corrects" the well tempered tuning and we hear actually a difference between these two notes, if they are played on the piano within two different harmonic contexts.
Likewise I think that what we hear as music might be actually all like this. The physical sounds just stimulate us to hear the *real* thing, the *real* music, and this music happens actually "inside". But this "inside" in itself has two aspects, the "inner" and the "outer" inside. I mean, our inside experience of the ideal sound is not only in us, but leads to an "inner outer" world which is not only subjective but as objective as our outer physical world. Like in the physical world exists such a thing as the difference between our body and other objects/subjects which belong to the outer world, there must be a difference between our inner self and the outer "inner world".
Lol maybe I'm getting really complicated here... ;D

Offline Karli

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Re: What are the real characteristics and function of a Tonal Center ?
«Reply #28 on: June 14, 2010, 05:02:13 PM »
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