playing from beginning to the end.

[nick]

Hello fellow muscians. I wonder how many of you play your pieces from beginning to the end as a performance approaches, how much, and how soon in weeks before the performance date. I have not done this very much at all throught my years of playing, and have always had little glitches in performance, places i may not have made errors before. Almost all my practice has been in segments. But now i am thinking i need more 'from beginning to the end' practice since there are no particular weak spots as a regular occurance. I am about 2 weeks out from playing rhapsody #2 by Listz, and it appears each time i play it, there is a different glitch, slip, but never in the same spot. I am thinking i am on the right track to just play entire piece repeatedly. I do it about 3 or 4 times in a day. When you think about it, the music is written as a whole, to be enjoyed from beginning to the end. It takes different mental concentration to play the whole piece for sure. Any thoughts I would appreciate.

Nick

[m19834]

Well, as far as the reason to play a piece from beginning to end, I believe it is of course necessary, not just for the sake of the performance, but for the sake of musically and technically developing the piece as a whole.  Of course practicing in segments is a good idea, but there are always bigger concepts that need to be considered, too.  There will be arrival points within the entire piece as a whole, and ultimately it is all leading to the conclusion, which has to be dealt with as an entire work overall (the "long line"), not just in segments.

[nick]

Well, as far as the reason to play a piece from beginning to end, I believe it is of course necessary, not just for the sake of the performance, but for the sake of musically and technically developing the piece as a whole.  Of course practicing in segments is a good idea, but there are always bigger concepts that need to be considered, too.  There will be arrival points within the entire piece as a whole, and ultimately it is all leading to the conclusion, which has to be dealt with as an entire work overall (the "long line"), not just in segments.

Thanks Karli, but can you tell me how much of your practice time is playing from beginning to end?

nick

[m19834]

Thanks Karli, but can you tell me how much of your practice time is playing from beginning to end?

nick

Well, for me personally, right now, it's not much *at all*.  However, I think in some ways there still needs to be a kind of balancing act in considering the long line as well as the segments.  But, generally, I aim to master segments first, and then I may glue two segments together to make a bigger single segment, and then another segment to that bigger one, and so on until I glue the whole thing together as one big chunk.  However, as I go along in segments, I am consciously trying to patch the big picture together in my mind, trying to see the larger picture in how one idea flows into the next and so on, so that I am always constructing an idea of the entire work. 

Once I have my program to where the segments of each piece are mastered and I am putting together the pieces as a whole, then yes I would be playing through entire pieces for the majority of my practice time.  At that stage though, it is still a kind of patch work as now the entire pieces just become segments of the entire program, and the program must then be run all the way through and dealt with as one big "piece."  As I said, I am not *really* there with anything right now, though I do have some shorter works (a Chopin prelude and Grieg Lyric piece, for example) that are at a point where I am trying to run them as a whole.  If I am really honest with myself though, there are still chunks that I need to pull out of those, work on and polish, and then put back in.  It's always a balancing act, I think !

My program right now though consists of smaller pieces combined with bigger pieces, some of them I have started a couple of months ago, some of them I have started just under a month ago.  So, with some I am making pretty large segments with now, and with others they are not as big.

[m19834]

Okay, I have to add that I actually do try to read through the entire movement or work (depending on how big it is) every two to four days or so, to help with the long line.  But, in terms of memorizing and "polishing" I practice in segments and that takes up the majority of my time (as I indicated above).

[mingkei]

Hello fellow muscians. I wonder how many of you play your pieces from beginning to the end as a performance approaches, how much, and how soon in weeks before the performance date. I have not done this very much at all throught my years of playing, and have always had little glitches in performance, places i may not have made errors before. Almost all my practice has been in segments. But now i am thinking i need more 'from beginning to the end' practice since there are no particular weak spots as a regular occurance. I am about 2 weeks out from playing rhapsody #2 by Listz, and it appears each time i play it, there is a different glitch, slip, but never in the same spot. I am thinking i am on the right track to just play entire piece repeatedly. I do it about 3 or 4 times in a day. When you think about it, the music is written as a whole, to be enjoyed from beginning to the end. It takes different mental concentration to play the whole piece for sure. Any thoughts I would appreciate.

Nick

I believe completely that you should play a piece from the beginning to the end, especially when the performance date draws near.  Because as you said, you find "there is a different glitch, slip but never in the same spot", you can only see these problems when you play the piece through beginning to end. Then after you play through it as a whole, make sure that you focus and work on those sections where the mistakes were made. In some music, playing beginning to end would allow you to see if you have the stamina to pull the whole thing through; your Hungarian Rhapsody is that kind of a piece. There are also repeating sections in that rhapsody, and by playing through it and observing what you do with the repeating parts you can assess how you would make each repetition more interesting or different.   

[nick]

I believe completely that you should play a piece from the beginning to the end, especially when the performance date draws near.  Because as you said, you find "there is a different glitch, slip but never in the same spot", you can only see these problems when you play the piece through beginning to end. Then after you play through it as a whole, make sure that you focus and work on those sections where the mistakes were made. In some music, playing beginning to end would allow you to see if you have the stamina to pull the whole thing through; your Hungarian Rhapsody is that kind of a piece. There are also repeating sections in that rhapsody, and by playing through it and observing what you do with the repeating parts you can assess how you would make each repetition more interesting or different.   

Thanks for that Mingkei. The segment practice for me now i think is not needed, since as i said it appears a different glitch each repeat, so if the segment was weak, it would reappear. I think it is concentration. So much preparedness is needed, but then it is concentration from beginning to the end that must be practiced. I'm getting there. By the way, after reading on Karli's post people saying they tried having wine or a drink before playing, I tried last night after a couple of beers running through it. no good, many more mistakes. not for me.

Nick

[nick]

thank you karli.
Nick

[franzliszt2]

I usually learn all the notes to a piece, then practice it in sections like I would with anything...but in the early stages I always practice the piece all the way through once a day or more, just to get an overall feel for the structure and what passages are going to stress me out etc... I go through the piece in my head a lot, and thats how I map out the stucture. I think this is very important to do. Then I usually spend some time going through sections, and not really playing it through...so purely technical work on passages and sections. As the performance draws near I play through the whole thing quite a lot at quater speed, and half speed, and don't attempt anywhere near full speed. It's very challanging for the memory, and it really makes you think carefully about how you judge things. By this point the only time I am playing up to speed is in front of my teacher at my lessons. Then about 2 weeks before the concert I play it 3/4 tempo a lot, and practice sections under tempo (and over tempo sometimes) and make sure I play the work through once a day at 1/2 or 3/4 tempo. The few days before a concert I usually just practice the whole piece under tempo, and focus heavily on passages I think will go wrong.

It also depends on the size of the work, I mean if I am going to be playing something long, like Liszt sonata, I will practice it the way I described above....but if it is smethign shorter like a Chopin nocturne, or Debussy prelude, I will probably play it through a lot just because I get pleasure from doing so and it's not exhausting. Running the Liszt sonata through leaves you feeling slightly tired and practicing running things like that through will just exhaust you.


Most importantly! After you have played it all the way through, write down everything that went wrong, technically, musically, emotionally (did you feel stressed at any point, tired, loss of concentration etc....) and anything else. Then take a break, like have a cup of tea or something, and then go back t the piano and fix the problems straight away with a fresh mind.

Hope that helps

[nick]

thanks Franzlistz (cool name) for the indepth description. I like the 3/4 speed practice and have done this alot in the past, but this time find myself playing repeats at a speed i feel i have control, which may be a bit faster. The idea is the more i play it like it will be played at performance the better.  But i do like the comfort and a bit more a feeling of ease of the bit slower repeats. I think i will do that a bit more, with the same idea of all from beginning to the end. Thanks again.

Nick

[G.W.K]

When I'm practicing a piece, I can usually play it over-and-over again from beginning to end without any, or minor, mistakes. However, as I get closer to a performance date (which I seldom do now), I begin to panic slightly and get distracted and my playing begins to rapidly fail, perhaps because I practise more without taking as many breaks.

Usually, if I make one mistake...I'll stop instantly. I always read that if you make a mistake, you should always try to cover it up by continuing, I struggle to do this. When the actual performance arrives, I'm panicking and instead of stopping if I make a mistake, I involuntarily pull a face. LOL...now I very rarely perform, I never considered myself very good anyway as I am self-taught.

So, just shut everything off so you focus completely on the playing and not any distractions. If you have any confidence problems, quickly get over them because they can seriously affect your performance and if you make any minor mistakes, pass them off as part of an improvisation or something and carry on, don't attract attention to them!

If you really struggle with a certain part of a piece, break it down into segments and make sure you can play it perfectly and then build on it so hopefully, the problem disappears.

Hope this helps,

G.W.K

[m19834]

thank you karli.
Nick

Sure, you're welcome, Nick .

[mingkei]

 I think it is concentration. So much preparedness is needed, but then it is concentration from beginning to the end that must be practiced.

Nick
[/quote]

See, as you said, concentration is an issue. That's why playing through a piece beginning to the end is important. As I wrote in my first email, I call it "stamina"; you call it "concentration". In any case, you really need to see and hear how you can handle the piece as a whole.

Then I read all the other posts about practicing 1/2, 1/4, 3/4....of the performance speed. They all sound very good. But on top of all those advices, you should also have opportunities in your daily practice to play at performance speed, even learn from mistakes made at performance speed.

   Again, I must emphasize that it is good and very very good to practice 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 3/4...speed. But you must also observe and see how you're doing at performance speed and correct anything wrong at that speed. The short and simple explanation is that we are creatures of learned behavior. While it is very good that you learn all the behavior at 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 3/4...speed, it doesn't automatically transfer to a good performance when you have to do it on stage at regular speed. You need to practice at that regular speed to develop good and solid playing at performance speed.

[franzliszt2]

If you practice properly at a slower tempo, it will never be an issue playing up to speed...unless it is something that requires very fine dexterity. You just need to think about everything in a lot of detail, and this takes a long time, and I think it helps if your teacher does this with you for a while. My teacher used to make me bring pieces 1/4 speed (from memory) and wouldn't let me use pedal. I did Gaspard de la nuit like this....and I thought this whole idea was stupid, until I realised that after a few days I could play full speed with ease, and I knew everything inside out. You just have to perfect every single movement to the smallest detail, and practice the movements.

The problem with practicing as if it were a performance is that it will NEVER be like a performace. The feeling of performing is different to anything in a practice room.  I don't mean you should never practice at performance speed, but I think you should avoid too much of it. I never try to play it in a practice room the way I think I will perform it...partly becasue I will feel differently before every perfrmance, and I feel secure if I know I have complete control.

Also, if you have practiced it slowly a lot, it is so liberating to walk on stage and just play the music, and not worry about anything else!

Also, before a performace I go through the whole ritual, and rest and don't really practice, and my mind is set on the performance for the whole day....how can I possibly immitate that in a practice room? If I try to immitate a performance I just end up thinking about the performace and not the music...which is of course absurd!

[nick]

Interesting accounts from all. I did practice today at about 3/4 speed 3x's in a row, with small break after each, and then 1 time at performance speed, or up to speed. Sounded great to me, felt a bit more easy, but was not note perfect. At this point it appears the 3/4 speed allows a bit more control, ease, than repeats up to tempo. That seems a good thing. I will observe similar practice method. Thanks again all who responded.

Nick

[jinfiesto]

I actually try to avoid playing things through except occasionally. I may play sections through, but rarely a whole piece. I feel this keeps it fresh. Although, it is true that the piece needs to be conceptualized as a whole some way, and playing it through does help. I simply prefer to conceptualize the piece structurally anyhow, and I typically will put down all of my ideas concerning the piece on paper. I feel this eliminates most of the need to play things through a lot.

[mingkei]

The ability to mentally prepare yourself during practice, so to  immitate a performance, varies from person to person. What I mean is, of course, practicing is never like a real performance, but some people can do a better job than others in mentally preparing themselves. Playing a piece through beginning to end with good mental preparation works for me. (Of course, this assumes that one has done numerous slow practice, extremely careful analysis of the piece in every spot, and continually incorporates slow and careful analysis while practicing the piece holistically.) I agree with the comment that one should avoid too much of the practicing at performance speed, but that kind of practice is necessary I must still say.
And no, I don't have the experience that  "If I try to immitate a performance I just end up thinking about the performace and not the music. "--Whether I think about the performance  or the music is a matter of the psyche at the time of the performance, it's about how I control myself mentally, exercise relaxation technique etc.

[birba]

When Argerich won the Geneva, she said she had never played the liszt 6th rhapsody in it's entirety before she played it in the semi-finals.  She was supersticious and felt it would bring bad luck!  But, of course, we're talking about Martha Argerich.  One teacher I had said one should play the WHOLE PROGRAMME several times in a row.  He said it was like learning a path through the forest and knowing how to get through it and out.  I've had the same qualms.  For some reason, I feel like I'm "wearing the piece out" if I play it too much up to speed and with the same intensity as on the concert stage.  But the key is concentration, as everyone has mentioned here.  I probably practise 1/4th the time at speed (and sometimes 5/4 the speed, if you know what I mean) and the rest slow - moderate work.  But it's such a personal matter.

[nick]

Hello all. Just a few neat observations lately. You all know how intruding thoughts can derail a performance, which is why concentration is so important. Well as i played my piece from beginning to end, up to tempo repeatedly, i noticed fewer errors as i became used to the speed. I observed that at that fast speed, errors occur sometimes because the mind must look at a certain spot at the split of a second, or there will be an error, which i observed. Now, as repeats occured, my mind and body would make the adjustment and be there, reducing the errors on a given spot. This is why even 3/4 speed will not work up to a point in my opinion, because it is still different from up to tempo speed. On the coda of the rhapsody 2 i was playing, on the fast octaves coming down i had the thought,( just a blip)  as i was playing that it is becoming easier as i am relaxing since i am getting used to it, and just then derailed toward the end. You know how our thoughts when performing are just blips, like a small thing that represent an entire thought. That is what i observed at that moment and then-derailed. So time will tell but i think playing from beginning to end, and up to tempo once sections can be played slower perfect is correct. It takes alot of energy, but a transformation occurs as you work through the repeats. Just thought i would share.

Nick

[mike saville]

Some interesting thoughts. I would also add that before major performances I do run from start to finish a lot - but I usually save it for around 10 days before the performance. (I do my normal practice until that point)

I then do a few things:

• I'll invite friends to sit and listen while I play - good discipline to make me go from start to end without stopping.
• I'll record my run throughs - I find it easier to analyse when I'm not actually playing.
• I'll play at the same time of day as the performance.
• I'll play in the same clothes and go through the same routine (eating, drinking etc) as I will on the day.
• I'll use some visualisation techniques to imagine the perfect performance.

I'l use all of these as beginning to end techniques and find that they really help me in the run up to a performance.

[nick]

Some interesting thoughts. I would also add that before major performances I do run from start to finish a lot - but I usually save it for around 10 days before the performance. (I do my normal practice until that point)

I then do a few things:

• I'll invite friends to sit and listen while I play - good discipline to make me go from start to end without stopping.
• I'll record my run throughs - I find it easier to analyse when I'm not actually playing.
• I'll play at the same time of day as the performance.
• I'll play in the same clothes and go through the same routine (eating, drinking etc) as I will on the day.
• I'll use some visualisation techniques to imagine the perfect performance.

I'l use all of these as beginning to end techniques and find that they really help me in the run up to a performance.

Sounds good Mike. I like you did segment practice up until about 2 weeks, then almost exclusive from beginning to end. After all, this is what music is about, enjoying playing it. If we only play it from beginning to end about time of performance, we enjoy the whole of it very little. I may on my next piece work less segments.

Nick

[lostinidlewonder]

This type of question really depends on the amount of work you are studying simultaneously. This also depends on the amount of old work that you revise as well as. It would be impossible for me to play through every single piece I know every day but if one does not upkeep their pieces it will start to fade from the memory somewhat. Because of this I often practice only parts of pieces which I feel within me are not the best.

The selection of the parts to practice is not a complicated matter, simply take out the entire sheets and skip parts which I find obvious. Often my notes on the sheet music will remind me of which parts are or have been the trickiest for me. Thus only certain chunks will be practiced.

It is however important to revise the bars that connects two passages together. That is play the end part of one passage which connects to the beginning of the next. These are usually the trickiest parts to practice in chunks. The movement to new groups is often something I will quickly play over no matter what difficulty of the passage.

I separate the pieces I practice in performance pieces and non performance pieces. Non performance pieces might become performance pieces in the future but it is not necessary to play them at high quality immediately, these do not require a beginning to end play through. However for pieces that are up for the next performance need to be played through beginning to end constantly.

Before a concert performance you should play through your program in its entirety as many times as possible. So as soon as I allocate a piece for performance I will strive to play it from beginning to end "perfectly" as soon as possible and as many times as possible.

Some people argue that playing a piece for performance too many times through can reduce your inspiration to play the piece well. I think everyone is different. For me the more I play a piece the more effortless it becomes and the more I can focus on the sound without having to worry what my hands do. All pieces that are up for performance need to be polished so much that you can do them in the dark and that every single discomfort in your hand is made comfortable. If people pay to listen to you you owe it to them to do your music such service.

There is a trap when you only practice sections and neglect practicing the line that connects them. I hear it in a few amateur pianists that their playing sounds segmented, almost as if you can hear their hands reorganizing themselves. So never neglect practicing the small part that connects sections together. If you do that then practicing segments is not so disadvantageous.