What ability

[loonbohol]

Can you tell me what is the specific term for this ability.

Let us say I heard a song in the television. I remembered the tune.
I do not have the notation for the music nor the chords. (Neither I know them).

Then, I went to the piano and find the way to play the piece both the melody and chords and harmony without knowing it. It is like trying to figure out how the music is played without ....

[db05]

I believe it is called "transcribing by ear". Or in tagalog, "sipra", sometimes with an 'f' instead of 'p'. At least that's what the banders call it. Pretty common with gigging bands.

[thierry13]

The ability is called being a musician. BTW, MANY people played the complete Chopin etudes way before they were 15. Franz Liszt probably could have sight-read them all at a younger age too.

[jinfiesto]

No, liszt couldn't have. By all accounts, liszt was a pretty awful pianist, until he secluded himself with the sole purpose of getting better.

[alpacinator1]

Maybe Alkan?

[richard black]

Liszt was a pretty amazing pianist before 15 but he realised he could be an even better one, hence the temporary 'retirement'.

Plenty of pianists could play 10 ChopEts by the age of 15 - in fact I'd go so far as to say that if you're going to get anywhere as a soloist you'd better set that as a target. Well, as a virtuoso soloist, anyway. Maybe a lyrical player (i.e. someone who doesn't aspire to stuff like Liszt!) could get awya with being as old as 16 or 17.  Don't forget Kissin played one (or even both?) of the Chopin concertos when he was 11 or 12 or something.

The answer to Loonbohol's question is 'memory', by the way. Most musicians have it.

[jabbz]

No, liszt couldn't have. By all accounts, liszt was a pretty awful pianist, until he secluded himself with the sole purpose of getting better.

Who's accounts?

[richard black]

PS to my earlier post - another characteristic that most musicians (good ones, anyway) have is humility.

[jabbz]

PS to my earlier post - another characteristic that most musicians (good ones, anyway) have is humility.

Well said!

[shinerl]

I believe it is called "transcribing by ear". Or in tagalog, "sipra", sometimes with an 'f' instead of 'p'. At least that's what the banders call it. Pretty common with gigging bands.

This is ultimately impossible , Transcribing by ear requires an I.Q. above +130

[db05]

This is ultimately impossible , Transcribing by ear requires an I.Q. above +130

Err, no, as it is a matter of keen sense of pitch. So, theoretically, if you have absolute pitch or high-level relative pitch, you can transcribe, even if you have trouble in spelling or grammar (verbal IQ). Some not-so-intelligent autistics have been known to have perfect pitch, but I don't know if they use the ability that way.

In school, sometimes we had dictation where teacher would play something and we had to notate it without help from any instrument. This is for me, impossible (although I am considered intelligent) except for the rhythm. Same for many others. There were only 2 in my class who had the ability to get it right the first time. And maybe 2 or 3 who would make several guesses until getting the answer.

[thierry13]

No, liszt couldn't have. By all accounts, liszt was a pretty awful pianist, until he secluded himself with the sole purpose of getting better.

By all accounts, Liszt was a prodigy as soon as he touched the piano. A**hole.

[thierry13]

In school, sometimes we had dictation where teacher would play something and we had to notate it without help from any instrument. This is for me, impossible (although I am considered intelligent) except for the rhythm. Same for many others. There were only 2 in my class who had the ability to get it right the first time. And maybe 2 or 3 who would make several guesses until getting the answer.

Did you get kicked out of the school? I mean, I can't figure how this could be impossible ... I saw so many people I would qualify of tone deaf who finally could manage taking some simple melodies. You just have to practice to learn how the different intervals sound. You begin with thirds fourth fifths and then go on and finally you have every interval. Then you learn how they work together and you don't even have to ask yourself about wich intervals they make, simply how do they all relate to tonality/harmony.

[term]

This is ultimately impossible , Transcribing by ear requires an I.Q. above +130

And playing fast thirds requires a nose > 3.2 cm.

[pianisten1989]

LOL! Yeah, sure.. You're probably as good as liszt. Or wait! Your Better than Liszt! Fore sure!

[pianowolfi]

This is ultimately impossible , Transcribing by ear requires an I.Q. above +130

Nope. It requires a good aural training and a lot of practice, like so many things. IQ (Or what people use to think that "IQ" represents) can't be wrong though, anyway, it fastens the process.

[db05]

Did you get kicked out of the school? I mean, I can't figure how this could be impossible ... I saw so many people I would qualify of tone deaf who finally could manage taking some simple melodies. You just have to practice to learn how the different intervals sound. You begin with thirds fourth fifths and then go on and finally you have every interval. Then you learn how they work together and you don't even have to ask yourself about wich intervals they make, simply how do they all relate to tonality/harmony.

LOL, no, I think I managed to make up for it with my good sense of rhythm. And perfect attendance.

I do just fine if you set a cadence for the key and then present a pitch, or telling the interval between two notes at the same time (50% chance here, because I usually mistake an interval for its inversion ie. same notes). Melody is the hardest, but it shouldn't be so hard if we were allowed instruments, no? I mean, I can pick out Happy Birthday on a guitar, sure. 

Maybe it's also a matter of perspective, but for me, you'd have to have near perfect pitch to do it without an instrument. Most people I know are really tone deaf, worse than I am. Lately, I've heard someone sing ALONG to the radio and still be far from the truth. Now THAT is tone deaf. I'm not THAT bad.

I'm not what you mean by just learning all intervals. And then how they work together so that you don't even have to ask about the intervals they make. But I may have tried that at some point in my desperation of last year. We were taught all melodic intervals, sure, but it did not help anyone who had to be taught. As for sense of pitch, I can honestly say nobody learned it at school. Technique, theory and sight reading, yes. Ear training, no.

It's easy to say, "oh, just learn all intervals" or "study all the pitches" but there's no proven method for this that would make just about anyone be able to pick out melodies/ harmonies without an instrument. Unless there be such method, I find that the existence of a subject as "ear STRAINING" is just unfair and a waste of time. I burned so many hours and shed so much tears on the subject for nothing.

[richard black]

Transcribing by ear is just one of those things that some people can do, some can't (or at least not without real difficulty). It doesn't prove anything further. I can do it very well, I can also sight-read very fluently, but that doesn't make me a better pianist than, say, Radu Lupu who (I know from a mutual friend) takes forever to learn a piece, by ear or eye, but plays it to die for once it's done. So he plays solo recitals and concertos, I do other piano-playing stuff. David Beckham can't play piano but he can do impressive things with a football, which I couldn't to save my life. Why not just enjoy the abilities you have rather than scoffing at others who lack them and worrying yourself about things you can't easily do?

[loonbohol]

I first transcribed music by ear at the age of 6....
And it's title was "Paper roses"

[thierry13]

LOL, no, I think I managed to make up for it with my good sense of rhythm. And perfect attendance.

I do just fine if you set a cadence for the key and then present a pitch, or telling the interval between two notes at the same time (50% chance here, because I usually mistake an interval for its inversion ie. same notes). Melody is the hardest, but it shouldn't be so hard if we were allowed instruments, no? I mean, I can pick out Happy Birthday on a guitar, sure. 

Maybe it's also a matter of perspective, but for me, you'd have to have near perfect pitch to do it without an instrument. Most people I know are really tone deaf, worse than I am. Lately, I've heard someone sing ALONG to the radio and still be far from the truth. Now THAT is tone deaf. I'm not THAT bad.

I'm not what you mean by just learning all intervals. And then how they work together so that you don't even have to ask about the intervals they make. But I may have tried that at some point in my desperation of last year. We were taught all melodic intervals, sure, but it did not help anyone who had to be taught. As for sense of pitch, I can honestly say nobody learned it at school. Technique, theory and sight reading, yes. Ear training, no.

It's easy to say, "oh, just learn all intervals" or "study all the pitches" but there's no proven method for this that would make just about anyone be able to pick out melodies/ harmonies without an instrument. Unless there be such method, I find that the existence of a subject as "ear STRAINING" is just unfair and a waste of time. I burned so many hours and shed so much tears on the subject for nothing.

Hrm, you SO do not need to have perfect pitch! I am very far from having perfect pitch and I can still easily recognize what is for example the third of the chord, a fourth degree chord, a 2nd degree chord, any degree chord really ... and I couldn't do that at all some years ago before having ear training courses. If you say you can recognize melodic intervals, you should be able to pick melodies ... basically a melody IS just a bunch of intervals so... but it's much easier if you ear in wich degrees' chord that note appears! It's just about training, everybody can do it. Trust me I've seen desperate cases learn ...

[db05]

Hrm, you SO do not need to have perfect pitch! I am very far from having perfect pitch and I can still easily recognize what is for example the third of the chord, a fourth degree chord, a 2nd degree chord, any degree chord really ... and I couldn't do that at all some years ago before having ear training courses. If you say you can recognize melodic intervals, you should be able to pick melodies ... basically a melody IS just a bunch of intervals so... but it's much easier if you ear in wich degrees' chord that note appears! It's just about training, everybody can do it. Trust me I've seen desperate cases learn ...

I can pick out a melody if I had two things: an instrument and lots and lots of time. It's practically just guessing. I have more luck with harmonic intervals, which is 50-50.

I haven't seen any desperate and not-so-desperate cases learn yet, so what sort of training and what sort of desperation are you talking about?

[theodore]

The ultimate feat of memory was performed by a young kid in the 18th century:

On December 13, 1769, Leopold Mozart and his son Wolfgang left Salzburg and set out for a 15-month tour of Italy where, among other things, Leopold hoped that Wolfgang would have the chance to study with Padre Martini in Bologna.

They arrived in Rome on April 11, 1770, just in time for Easter. As with any tourist, they visited St. Peter's Basilica to celebrate Easter and to hear the famous Allegri Miserere sung at by the Sistine Chapel Choir.

Upon arriving at their lodging that evening, Mozart sat down and wrote out from memory the entire piece. On Good Friday, the 14 year old Wolfgang returned, with his manuscript rolled up in his hat, to hear the piece again and make a few minor corrections. Leopold Mozart told of Wolfgang's accomplishment in a letter to his wife dated April 14, 1770 (Rome): 

Quote:

"…You have often heard of the famous Miserere in Rome, which is so greatly prized that the performers are forbidden on pain of excommunication to take away a single part of it, copy it or to give it to anyone. But we have it already.  Wolfgang has written it all down and we would have sent it to Salzburg in this letter, if it were not necessary for us to be there to perform it..."

[db05]

I first transcribed music by ear at the age of 6....
And it's title was "Paper roses"

You'd seem to be turning this forum into a bragfest. I suggest you ditch the signature, as it attracts too much criticism.

[pianisten1989]

I first transcribed music by ear at the age of 6....
And it's title was "Paper roses"

Ok... If you want to belive that you are the new Liszt, Fine! You probably doesn't even have to practise, since you obviously think you are as great as Liszt.

So, Do I get you right? You have played the piano in atlears 9 years, and you've played 10 chopin etudes, in 9 years, and you think you are as great as Liszt?

[popdog]

His signature is a joke, as is his last post in this thread. 

[loonbohol]

sorry about my signature but It was just suggested by someone

[thierry13]

Now it is more accurate.

[jinfiesto]

Bull crap Liszt was a prodigy the first time he touched a piano. According to even Chopin, before liszt went through his intense regimen of technical improvement, he was something of a hack.  There's a letter written by Chopin that documents this, asserting that Liszt had issues sight reading even basic material.

Not to say he didn't fix this. Liszt was, by all means probably the greatest pianist of all time. He simply didn't start that way.

[jabbz]

What about the accounts of Liszt playing for Beethoven as a child? And technically speaking, would Chopin have known Liszt as a child? I don't know when it was Liszt became a super-virtuoso but it was probably extremely young (probably around 11 or so).

[thalbergmad]

Liszt playing for Beethoven is possibly bollox.

Liszt from the earliest age was a genius, but an untrained & uncultured one.

Czerny tells us that he threw his hands all over the place and had no idea of proper fingering, but he also tells us he was a genius.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

There is considerable controversy in the Liszt literature over what did or did not happen re his alleged meeting with Beethoven.

Czerny (1822): "I never had such a diligent, gifted and ardent pupil.. I got him accustomed to keeping strict time, previously a deficiency, to a fine attack and beautiful tone, to the correct fingering and proper musical phrasing.. Because he had to learn each piece very quickly he acquired the ability to read at sight very difficult works as if he had studied them a long time."

Augsburger Allgemeine Zeitung (1823) "We have heard Hummel and Moscheles and are not afraid to assert that this child is not a whit inferior to them in performance".

Now THAT is what I call a prodigy.

[thalbergmad]

If i remember correctly, Czerny thought that in Liszt, nature itself had created a pianist.

Thal

[general disarray]

Liszt playing for Beethoven is possibly bollox.



Thal

Probably so, but history does record a famous audition of the two-year-old Thalbergmad before The Master, Earl Scruggs.

Scruggs said:  "The boy's got everything but fingers, but, Lord, what a banjo player!" 

[thalbergmad]

How i would love a lesson with the Master Earl Scruggs, but at 84, he might have better things to do.

Thal

[thierry13]

Bull crap Liszt was a prodigy the first time he touched a piano. According to even Chopin, before liszt went through his intense regimen of technical improvement, he was something of a hack.  There's a letter written by Chopin that documents this, asserting that Liszt had issues sight reading even basic material.

Not to say he didn't fix this. Liszt was, by all means probably the greatest pianist of all time. He simply didn't start that way.

How could you advance such bullcrap ? Liszt had allready gone trough his technical regimen when he actually met chopin for the first time! By ALL, and I mean ALL, accounts, Liszt was a prodigy and a genius as soon as he touched the instrument for the first time.

[Petter]

Francois Lizottz as his french name implies and Frntz+ L0z+st as his gypsie origin name claims, was not very well acquainted with the Hammerklavier until his relative late introduction at the age of 8 months, which was pursued by the enormous and physically unproportional diety of Nicollina Paganini, who inspired him to maintain large quantities of soltitude in order to establish well functional reflexes that eventually helped him in his strain to lead a promiscuous life which upon his sole reputation served as an indepedent but quite firm engine in which he could realize his crème de la crème ambitions.

[pianisten1989]

sorry about my signature but It was just suggested by someone

Ofc it was.... ^^