Music college entrance at an uncommon age

[napoleonspidgin]

Hello, I'm new and am about to embark on a mission to increase my piano playing skills to conservatory entrance level.  I am not new to music, I played viola and violin until graduating high school.  I did study piano for 2 years when i was 9 and 10.  I am now 23 with 2 years of college credit (not music).

I'm just wondering if there's a disadvantage to being barely out of normal college age (18-23) range for an undergraduate.  How common/uncommon is it?  I would be no younger than 25 by the time I start.  Also, my plan is to major in Composition which requires a piano audition and of course, further instruction.

[thierry13]

I think in performance it is allmost impossible (even if you actually DO get in, to succeed later on), but in composition, I think something can be done. You would of course have to study intensively and do lots of mental exercises before you loose too much brain power because of age.

[Petter]

 I think I need some batteries...

[healdie]

I am 17 and i have enquired about music college and they say it is not uncommon at all for people to be in their mid 20's they get people of all ages there

and i don't believe it would be impossible at all to succeed yes of course you would be at a disadvantage but music is not like sport or dance you pass your prime at 30

Berlioz didn't start studying music untill his 20's and Bruckner was in his 30's before he started to study composition and his first works didn't appear until he was in his 40's

[quantum]

I remember seeing many older people in my uni taking undergrad in music.  So, in my experience it did not seem like an unusual occurrence.  In graduate studies there are many in their 30's and 40's. 

[keypeg]

... before you loose too much brain power because of age.

Come again?  Brain power does not get lost because of age.

[napoleonspidgin]

Come again?  Brain power does not get lost because of age.

I would agree.  Our brains and bodies decay but there is plenty we can do about it.

A few days ago I caught this NYtimes article about Elliot Carter, who's turning 100.https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/arts/music/12carter.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=elliot%20carter&st=cse

He gets up in the morning every day and composes for a few hours.  A 100 year old man.

[canardroti]

It is not uncommon at all to have students past their twenties entering the music field in universities. There are alot of young kids who have been in the music field all their lives as well as others who have not. You seem to have a solid background in music,therefore I assume playing the piano would come to you easier. Also, obviously the requirement for a composition major and a performance major would be much less. I am in a very similar situation as yours, you will be fine.

[prestofantastico]

I´m 25 and applying for a major in performance. Do you think it would be more likely to get accepted if I was younger?
Assuming that my playing is "better" than the other younger applicants, do you still think they prioritize younger people? Do I have a chance at all? 

[db05]

I'd be graduating from our integrated music course in 2 years, and i'm turning 20 now. So I'll be 21 or 22 by the time I apply for conservatory, depending on if and when I do a graduation recital, and if I'm up to it technically and mentally.

I've only been studying piano for 1 1/2 years (though I've had a few lessons as a little kid) and I wonder if I'll ever be up to it. As piano is the only thing I'm really interested in, although I'd consider classical guitar, composition or conducting  . I prefer piano repertoire to all others...

[a-sharp]

Hahaha - if you are out of "common range" ... what does that say about me? (I'm 43 - I've got 5 semesters to go)

Just do it & don't over think it.

[napoleonspidgin]

Hahaha - if you are out of "common range" ... what does that say about me? (I'm 43 - I've got 5 semesters to go)

Just do it & don't over think it.

Yes! This topic was meant to bring you guys out of the woodwork.  I shall heed your advice.

[a-sharp]

Hey - I don't reside in the "woodwork" LOL

[pianowolfi]

Hahaha - if you are out of "common range" ... what does that say about me? (I'm 43 - I've got 5 semesters to go)

Just do it & don't over think it.

Very good 

[zheer]

  depens how badly you wont to enter a music college, if it has been a life long ambition then yeah definitely it's a good idea. By 25 most people reach a level of maturity which is very liberating, no more should I do this or should I do that, you just do it.

[franzliszt2]

If you are 25 and auditioning for an undergraduate degree in performance you will be at a huge disadvantage. Most people apply when they are around 17-18ish, and if you look at the standard of most of these it is usually very high. It is in the best interests of all involved to have this age group enter the 1st year. The are still young, and at that age when it is perfect to learn lots of repertoire and still be taught. By 25 you should really be quite self relient if you even begin to hope for a career in music.   

If you are 23, and have only had 2 years of piano tuition you will probably not reach the entrance level by the age of 25. I mean, if they did want a 25 year old, they would expect a LOT of repertoire. They already expect quite a large repertoire to begin with. A lot of conservatoire students have been in music schools before going onto the undergraduate course, so they will have had years of specialised training, and will have experience on stage, and have learnt a lot of repertoire. Of course an institution is going to go for the younger student becasue they can gain a lot more from them, and the student will also gain more. 

[dennis.it]

Come again?  Brain power does not get lost because of age.

Expecially not at 30 year old ! 
The problem with starting late is being a total beginner, if you've a background in music you can begin conservatory when you're 40 and it's not uncommon.
Go for it !

[franzliszt2]

Expecially not at 30 year old ! 
The problem with starting late is being a total beginner, if you've a background in music you can begin conservatory when you're 40 and it's not uncommon.
Go for it !

Yup, you do see lots of 40 year olds at conservatoires...but they are usually teachers!

[a-sharp]

Pursuing a performance degree is a worthwhile pursuit at any age, if that is the degree you want, regardless of your intentions in terms of earning a living. Simply b/c you don't intend to make your living as a performance artist (how many people do that anyway?) - It's about getting the education and the experience. That degree will serve one well as a teacher - especially if you go on to get a Masters or higher) in Pedagogy and get a job at a Jr. College or University - you'll probably be required to perform (and will want to, I assume) on some level anyway.

Granted - it's MUCH more difficult when you're older - and have more responsibilites, obligations, a regular job, etc. !!

[Petter]

How hard is it to get into to a music college on average? Do you just pay for it? Surely there´s auditions right? Me swede, me not know American school system.

[renatog]

Yup, you do see lots of 40 year olds at conservatoires...but they are usually teachers!

See, this is the elitist BS that we "adult" musicians/composers/etc have to deal with when studying music.  Just because we weren't given a musical instrument at a very young age, doesn't mean we aren't competent enough to compete with the youngens.  Excuse me for dropping out of music college because I actually have to earn a living...
How the heck are we supposed to study in college when they don't offer music classes at night?  How do they expect us to make ends meet?  Traditional "classical" music teaching needs a revamp.  It's been about three years since I left the community college, and I'm pretty sure they're still stuck in the age of - as Elliot Carter said in that article - "gas lights and horses".  Take a look at contemporary music songwriting and music business classes.  THAT department is more realistic (funny because it isn't the music department, it's in the business department) where they do offer night courses for people who work during the day.

I started learning music in my early 20's and still going.
Don't let unencouraging comments like these stop you from trying out for music college.

[franzliszt2]

See, this is the elitist BS that we "adult" musicians/composers/etc have to deal with when studying music.  Just because we weren't given a musical instrument at a very young age, doesn't mean we aren't competent enough to compete with the youngens.  Excuse me for dropping out of music college because I actually have to earn a living...
How the heck are we supposed to study in college when they don't offer music classes at night?  How do they expect us to make ends meet?  Traditional "classical" music teaching needs a revamp.  It's been about three years since I left the community college, and I'm pretty sure they're still stuck in the age of - as Elliot Carter said in that article - "gas lights and horses".  Take a look at contemporary music songwriting and music business classes.  THAT department is more realistic (funny because it isn't the music department, it's in the business department) where they do offer night courses for people who work during the day.

I started learning music in my early 20's and still going.
Don't let unencouraging comments like these stop you from trying out for music college.

It is not elitism, it is pure fact. If you start an instrument at a later age (early 20's), you will never catch up with a person whos musical talent was discovered at an early age and has been given a solid training. I mean what can you possibly do? There are things that take years and years to achieve, and repertoire takes a long time to learn.

You can do music courses on evenings, but they are totally different from a music college. In a music college you practice all day...

Traditional music training needs a revamp?? Are you mad? Look at any piano competition, look at the conservatoires, look at the sheer amount of people who can play the piano well!! I think the teaching is totally fine. I think Carters statement was directed at the composers as opposed to the teaching.

Contempory music songwriting and business classes? You go to music college to perfect an instrument, voice or composing. As far as I have noticed the compostion department in far from "Gas lights and horses".

You can moan and complain about the elitest BS all you want, but it doesn't actually help your case. I will take my hat off in respect to anyone who starts a musical instument late on in life and actually goes to a conservatoire, and comes out of it with a great career....but I have never actually seen that, or heard of it. Until then, I shall remain a preacher of elitest BS

[Petter]

Don´t forget you need a cute ass and some social talent aswell (maybe a leather jacket too) besides that talent. People might pursue music for other reason then to ˇMASTER! the repertoiree and make ˇJUSTICE! to the muuuusic.

[renatog]

Thank you for owning up to your elitist BS, at least you're not denying it .

I think I should have worded "traditional music training" differently...
I think college programs need to accomodate for all students. Not only for those that have been playing since they were 4 (ok maybe not that young, but you get the point).

I'm sorry you haven't taken advantage of the education available for songwriting and music business in universities nowadays...how else are you supposed to learn those things?  Oh, that's right, you can get sued and never make any $$$ in music.

Case closed.  Don't listen to franzliszt2, apply for music school, practice practice practice and beef up your skills for your audition.
Choose your pieces wisely.

[franzliszt2]

A conservatoire has one real aim....to produce world class musicians. Why would they waste time investing on accomodating for older students who have had a disadvantage. The thing is, the older student has things that conservatoires are not interested in. If you are over 30, that basiaclly means you can't enter the vast majority of competitions. The older student is going to be surrounded by younger students, and the way of life at colleges is quite similar to university. Plus, there is such a huge number of people applying to the colleges, many of whom have studied in conservatoires from an early age, and know the teachers etc... then you get hundreds of 18 year old applicants, and there are only about 10 places max! The conservatoires are obsessed with image, and they love naming prize winning students and having the name of the institution branded about. They can't really do that with older students, it just looks silly.


About the songwriting thing, I didn't take advantage of that becasue I really am not interested in that. If I was interested in that, I would have went to university and did a degree there. However it is classical (I use that in the wide sense of the word) music that interested me, and performing, so I choose to study at a conservatoire. I was 17 when I auditioned, along with most others.  Not 40

[zheer]

Don´t forget you need a cute ass and some social talent aswell (maybe a leather jacket too)

  Yup thats all you need.

[db05]

Not all music schools are that competitive. At least where I live, there is still a chance for late starters. franz may be speaking out of experience, but isn't it a bit too harsh? 

[zheer]

   Ok on a serious note, not many pianists make it as international concert pianist, but since reading through this forum I've realized that to perform music for others as a pianist is very possible if you work hard and have talent. The good thing about music is that if you fail to make a career from it, you always have music.
  I honestly believe their is one true test for pianists, and thats the love of music, if you truly love music you cant go wrong, you just keep on coming back to the piano/music regardless.

[Petter]

Not all music schools are that competitive. At least where I live, there is still a chance for late starters. franz may be speaking out of experience, but isn't it a bit too harsh? 

He´s right if we´re talking about the role of conservatories to foster artist that gets the work done and the business rolling. But if you take into consideration what role music and culture overall serves the society, which is a political matter really and of course hard to judge, everyone should, in my opinion, have the right to pursue music even if their abilities aren´t up to the standards of a an average Julliard student, if it has any meaning, no matter how remote, to their interpretation of themselves.   

Best,
 
Pletter

[db05]

db05 agrees with zheer and Petter.

btw, like renatog, I think college programs need to accommodate for all students, but especially music schools. The "elitist BS" is far too much. And for that, the masses have to suffer with less-than-decent music because only the very rich and privileged get to study music with any depth.

I have an old classmate who studied classical guitar for one year (prior to that he was a bassist, but bass major wasn't possible in our school, so he had to switch), and went on to a conservatory. He was 19/ 20. The rest of us in our school have similar ambitions, though we opt to finish this course first. Most of us are late starters, and some started from scratch upon enrolling.

Speaking of piano, one of the 3rd years is now studying for his audition for conservatory (one of the best) this year. Before enrolling in our school, he had only studied piano for 1-2 years.

[napoleonspidgin]

A conservatoire has one real aim....to produce world class musicians. Why would they waste time investing on accomodating for older students who have had a disadvantage. The thing is, the older student has things that conservatoires are not interested in. If you are over 30, that basiaclly means you can't enter the vast majority of competitions. The older student is going to be surrounded by younger students, and the way of life at colleges is quite similar to university. Plus, there is such a huge number of people applying to the colleges, many of whom have studied in conservatoires from an early age, and know the teachers etc... then you get hundreds of 18 year old applicants, and there are only about 10 places max! The conservatoires are obsessed with image, and they love naming prize winning students and having the name of the institution branded about. They can't really do that with older students, it just looks silly.

Your perspective is only accurate for a conventional student.  You assume the late student (me) is interested in attending a world class conservatory to become a touring concert pianist.  Not only are the odds of this happening slim-to-none in a conventional scenario, being older ups the ante of impossibility.  I should have clarified in my OP that this was not my intention.  My intentions are purely self fulfillment.  I would be perfectly content joining the ranks of thousands of non-touring, non-world class pianists that graduate university.  I seek the skills of a classical musician without pursuing the career of a classical musician. Basically, I want to treat it like art school. The age debate is just nonsense in this scenario.

Correction: I should have just stated 'music programs at universities' instead of 'conservatory'

[zheer]

Correction: I should have just stated 'music programs at universities' instead of 'conservatory'

 At universities you will learn a lot about music, western and non western This will increase your knowledge of music which will improve your understanding of piano music, if you are a good pianist then the degree will make you even better. However conservatory is where you learn how to perform and play an instrumen with the best, thats where all the good teachers are at. So it is your call, either way you have much to gain.

 good luck.

[renatog]

Napoleon,
  Keep in mind that a lot of universities still expect you to be able to show some type of proficiency in your instrument, even if you intend on majoring in composition, electronic music, or any non-performance major.  I studied piano for about 2 years in a community college but still did not make my first audition attempt (mostly because I was unaware of what was required of me).  I would definitely contact the piano department head of the university you are looking to attend, and ask them what they look for in an audition.
Your piano teacher should be able to tell you this, but just in case, here are some pointers:
Know your scales: Major, harmonic minor, melodic minor, natural minor (in all keys)
Know your arpeggios in all keys.
They will very likely provide a simple piece of music for you to show your proficiency in sight-reading, so make sure you practice that as well (I sucked big time).
Then you will present the pieces.  Have at least one from each time period, not necessarily the most popular ones (since it will be very easy for them to point out your mistakes), but those that have "meat" such as:
Bach Preludes & Fugues, Inventions
Mozart and Beethoven Piano Sonatas (you may not even be required to play all movements, but most definitely know them)
Chopin Etudes or Preludes
I don't recall all the pieces I looked that, but I'm sure you can search the forums for "audition pieces" and you will find suggestions.

Good luck and never give up on music!
-Renato