teaching adults..

[etcetra]

I know most of you are classical pianists and I teach jazz, but i figured there are a lot in common with the kind of things i am concerned about.

I had several adult students who has played the piano for a while but has little or no training.  It's really hard to teach them because they tell you what they want to do, but the really lack the fundamentals to do them.. so i have to teach them fundamental things in jazz piano, like chords and scales.  I also try to break down the learning process as much as possible and get them to understand what it means to really practice.

The problem is that most students are very enthusiastic but when they realize how meticulous you have to be in practice, they get really turned off.   Most of the time they don't practice, or even if they do.. its like they played through the piece couple of times.. thinking that its practice.. when i reality they are just repeating the same mistake over and over again.

I usually try to be patient and just spoon feed them the same material again.. I know they are getting frustrated, but I really don't want to let them move on to the next thing when their fundamental is so shaky. and I try to tell them how important it is to master these building blocks..

in the end they quit one way or the other.. its really hard to keep a student long enough to see progress.  I was wonder what do you guys do with students like that?  Part of me do feel responsible, that perhaps i have failed them, but i just can't see how i can teach otherwise.  Sure i can just let them teach them whatever they want,  let them miss the notes, miss the rhythm without fixing them.. it might be less frustrating for them but they wont really learn that way.

[mingkei]

I know most of you are classical pianists and I teach jazz, but i figured there are a lot in common with the kind of things i am concerned about.

I had several adult students who has played the piano for a while but has little or no training.  It's really hard to teach them because they tell you what they want to do, but the really lack the fundamentals to do them.. so i have to teach them fundamental things in jazz piano, like chords and scales.  I also try to break down the learning process as much as possible and get them to understand what it means to really practice.


The problem is that most students are very enthusiastic but when they realize how meticulous you have to be in practice, they get really turned off.   Most of the time they don't practice, or even if they do.. its like they played through the piece couple of times.. thinking that its practice.. when i reality they are just repeating the same mistake over and over again.

I usually try to be patient and just spoon feed them the same material again.. I know they are getting frustrated, but I really don't want to let them move on to the next thing when their fundamental is so shaky. and I try to tell them how important it is to master these building blocks..

in the end they quit one way or the other.. its really hard to keep a student long enough to see progress.  I was wonder what do you guys do with students like that?  Part of me do feel responsible, that perhaps i have failed them, but i just can't see how i can teach otherwise.  Sure i can just let them teach them whatever they want,  let them miss the notes, miss the rhythm without fixing them.. it might be less frustrating for them but they wont really learn that way.

I have also taught many adult students (beginners). I completely understand your frustration.

Well, I think we really need to respect what they want to do with the keyboard. It's pretty safe to say that nearly ALL of them just want to have some fun, as a way to relax from their stressful lives, acheive some kind of self-satisfaction....I don't think many, if not ANY, want to present a recital program, pursue it at the performance level...

  With that in mind, during lessons while I do correct them (always in a respectful manner) technically and musically, I do not insist on anything. Well, maybe unlike you, I have been fortunate...I don't have students telling me lofty goals that they don't have the techniques to achieve realistically, or if they do have those goals, they'd listen to me. So, I can't give you advice on what to do with those "overly-ambitious" students with completely inadequate skills. But again, I think the general rule with that population of students is, be respectful (i.e. in what they want to achieve)  and also very understanding of their limitation--the biggest one being, I think, lack of practice time.
If they can't play at the level you find acceptable, don't get frustrated, move on with some other repertoire.

And no, you can't say that "Sure, I can just let them [play] whatever they want,  let them miss the notes...but they wont really learn that way." True, they are not learning the most musically acceptable way, but they have enjoyed the process, they have found a means to vent out their stress, anger, whatever from work, family....They have achieved something.

[etcetra]

mingkei,

thanks for your long response, its true that you have to be very respectable of your students, and be more understanding.. after all they don't have the kinds of expectation about music as I do for myself.

I get most of my students through performance.. usually they hear me play at a gig and they tell me that they are interested in learning jazz.  Most people I get are not complete begginers, but you can tell they never practiced with discipline before.

I am not assigning them anything difficult, just being able to play scales/apreggios to a standard.. I usually have them play slow with a metronome.. i stress how important it is to practice slow and a little bit at a time.. i just do whatever i can during lesson to teach them the process of practicing.. i asked them how they felt about the experience, and how they made a noticable improvement within an hour.

I guess it all comes down to students not want to take that step to actually practice..  i know what they want to learn the whole idea of playing bebop lines.. playing jazz.. but I just can't imagine how i can teach those ideas that involves altering notes on a scale, when they can't even play scales correctly. 

It's hard since a lot of these people have been playing piano for a while, so they "Think" they know what they are doing, and they don't want to be treated as "begginers" I respectly tell them how important it is to brush up on basics, but they just don't want to take that step it seems.

anyways thanks for your input, I am sure this is an age old problem with any teachers..

[timothy42b]

I guess it all comes down to students not want to take that step to actually practice..  i know what they want to learn the whole idea of playing bebop lines.. playing jazz.. but I just can't imagine how i can teach those ideas that involves altering notes on a scale, when they can't even play scales correctly. 

Maybe you wouldn't mind a suggestion from one of those adult beginners. 

I think you want learning to be sequential, building block upon block.  That's probably the way you learned and it was very successful, otherwise you wouldn't be attracting those students. 

But I think maybe it doesn't work for them, otherwise you wouldn't be losing them. 

Learning actually doesn't have to be sequential.  You do have to build all the blocks, but not necessarily in the traditional classically correct order.  Sometimes parallel is better.

I know if you told me I had to perfect my scales before you let me do anything else, I'd probably be bored and go elsewhere.  If you told me my scales were holding me back, and I had to spend 1/3 of my practice on them, but also would work on what I wanted to play, I'd think the scale work was a great idea.  I'd see a direct connection between the prep work and the music, and would learn it better.

Example:  I went through my wife's theory books and learned how to build chords, but it was just academic.  Then I ended up playing off lead sheets in church.  Now I needed to know that stuff, but it made sense in context.   It had a meaning and a purpose, and so when I looked it up again it stayed with me.  If you told me I had to learn all my chords before I played a lead sheet I'd have ended up frustrated, but doing both at the same time helped with both.  Learning things with no current application is very hard for adults.   

[etcetra]

timothy42b,

that is true, perhaps i was a little too strict on that.  Maybe it has to do with how i taught.. my jazz teachers were really unorganized and it took me a while to actually acquire the kind of disciplined practice you do in classical.. most jazz teachers will just tell you to do this and do that, and you get frustrated because you don't know how to do what they ask you to do.

I do encourage the students to improvise and do things beyond what I assign them.. I do demonstrate a lot, about how important it is to be familiar with the scales and arpeggios, and how you can alter the notes on an arpeggio for more of a jazz sound.  I don't expect them to play the scales/chords perfectly but its hard to move on when they are struggling so much with that... and I usually do it in a context of a song.. with me playing the bass line so that it feels more like a real playing situation.

I am guessing maybe the reason they don't stick around long enough is because they feel like they are wasting money going through the same things.. I dont know i guess i really want students to start playing with good habits.. because i had a lot of injury problems from not having a good teacher and not developing a good practice habits early on. 

Also students come to me because where I live, there are not that many people who can play "real jazz", I hear a lot of so called  jazz pianists here who play lounge music.. they usually play out of time, and don't really have a good harmonic sense when they improvise, and I feel like its important to teach them correctly, since that's what they are asking me to do.

It's probably a lot like students who tells you they want to learn fantasie impromptu or chopin etudes.. some people will bring recording and say i want to play like that, and I am thinking to my self this guy doesn't have a clue how long many years it takes to play like that.  It's hard to be patient, and I was very impatient when I was learning to.. so i can understand that.. but it really gets in the way of learning.

[timothy42b]

timothy42b,

It's probably a lot like students who tells you they want to learn fantasie impromptu or chopin etudes.. some people will bring recording and say i want to play like that, and I am thinking to my self this guy doesn't have a clue how long many years it takes to play like that.  It's hard to be patient, and I was very impatient when I was learning to.. so i can understand that.. but it really gets in the way of learning.

I really don't know anything about piano jazz, though I've been listening to some George Shearing stuff lately.  So maybe this is a stupid question, but......

in the classical world, I wouldn't start with FI, there's so much more accessible stuff for beginners.  Something like the AMN pieces, maybe. 

When I look at piano jazz, it appears easily as intimidating as Rach or Chopin.  (listen to Fingerbreaker or Kitty on the Keys, doesn't seem any easier than FI.  or all those dense clusters of diminished 7th chords) 

Is there easy beginner jazz out there? 

[etcetra]

timothy42b,

I usually give students pieces like satin doll or blues because they are the easiest pieces to learn. I really dont know how much easier i can make it,
people get stuck with just the whole idea of improvising in time while chords are changing, it's too much information to process at the same time.

When i started playing, it was like throwing into the jungle and figuring my way out.   the teacher taught me about chords and scales, but I had to figure out most stuff on my own.  the initial hurdle is hard to get through there really is no way around it but just keep on doing it until you get used to it.

but i guess what i can do in the future is just pick a ii-V-I progression in C.. and have students play over that.. that way they don't have to worry about chords changes... all they have to do is pick out notes from the white keys.  The point is to get them used to the whole idea of improvising.

Anyways, thanks for your input, its giving me better perspective on how i can teach next time.

[allthumbs]

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[a-sharp]

etcetera...

I hear ya with the conflicts teaching adults. though - I'm a classical/traditional (literacy-based) type teacher... I think *jazz* would be really hard! Mostly - what I get from adults is (in their backwards language), they want to learn to improvise - like - just sit down at the piano and play random stuff & have it sound good.

I was trying to tell a new (adult) student the other day that essentially - those pianists (mostly) learn that from simply - spending LOTS of time *doing* just that. I'm at a loss for how to teach it, frankly, as it's not what I do - though my piano technician tries to show me every time he comes over, LOL.

SO... MY feeling is this ... even if what they really want to do is improvise - it's tough to do that (well) without knowing keys/scales and having some kind of reasonable level of technique (I'm speaking in general terms). What I try to to is balance what I insist they practice (which takes some time sometimes to determine what their particular needs are), and then after that, leave it up to them what they want to play.

HOWEVER, I do tell them upfront that I teach from a *reading the score* type approach. If they really want intensive improvisation lessons, I can refer them to someone who does that.

the last adult I told this to, decided to stick with me... and we are learning some stuff like sonatinas & Chopin waltzes (where she left off when she was younger). What she doesn't know is anything about theory or form - b/c she said her teacher never taught her any of that (weird, huh?).

She actually *like* technical excercises (she was a math major in college - left-brained I guess)

Maybe she just repsected my honesty, I don't know.

In any case - lots of adults will have odd schedules or quit simply b/c it is difficult to fit it into our lives as adults. So, it's not always about the teacher.

I would just be frank with them - what I know (and have learned to communicate) is that I truly believe that being a *better* pianist makes it more enjoyable. Sometimes you have to tell them that b/c they don't quite see that clearly. I will try to focus on the musicality of the particular piece - THEN, look at how they are articulating the passage and how a small "correction" can help it sound better. then sometimes they start to see the connection. BUT - don't overwhelm them with technical stuff if that puts them off.

I am rambling - but I hope some of it helps.

Any student - no matter what the age is challenging. It's all fun though, I think.

[etcetra]

a-sharp,

Yes I totally agree with you about teaching adults.. Most of students i play actually can play the piano.. they can play basic pop songs and blues.. I guess I emphasize good practice habits and discipline because that's the only way you can actually improve, and like you said, I just to realize how much more rewarding it is to play music if you work on getting better.. the joy is in being able to do stuff you weren't able to do before and being able to express more freely.

I encourage my students to transcribe and play by ear right away.. it may be something really easy, like playing along with Miles Davis' solo on "So What" from the CD "kind of blue" .. but for someone who has never done it before it is pretty challenging.. to learn the solo completely by ear, and analyzing.  I guess thats the kind of grunt work you do as a jazz musician..

I try to tell them about what i am working on, like how i've transcribed film scores, big band charts.. sols that are in 7/8.. and basically tell them that everything i am doing right now is the result of all the work i've put in throughout the years .. and I am far from being 'great'. 

I guess if students can just let go off their expectations and just focus on accomplishing little bit each day they will have much better time learning.. but its hard.. i think its an attitude issue, it took me a while to be more patient about my learning.. but in the end its a lot more productive that way.

[a-sharp]

See - I don't know if I could do that - transcribe a complete score! *eek*

I can certainly discern a melody - and put root position chords with it - or maybe stray from that a bit - but we're talking - simple tunes like happy birthday or Frere Jacque But I have to plan it out & wouldn't want to be doing that in front of people in an 'improvisation' setting.

However -I'm sure that (guessing!) I'll have to do something like that in one of my music classes later??? (3 or 4th year??)

I do try to incorporate ear training - and I teach some solfege too - I just wish there was more time. I did recently do away with the 30 minute lesson for all students over the age of 8 ... it was just too hard to fit everything into 1/2 hr.

Interval ear training (in or out of solfege) has to be helpful - once you can discern the distance between notes by ear - that has to be the basic key to it, no?

[etcetra]

a-sharp

yea interval recognition is key.. but i dont think we go far enough in music classes.. we have to know the interval like we know our alphabets.. which we don't.. i've seen musicians who are able to learn new songs on the bandstand in matter of couple of minutes without music.

I think it really comes down to the fact that jazz and classical requires very different kinds of training.. I talked to several jazz 'greats' and a lot of them seem to resent the whole idea of using sheet music, and they encourage against it almost completely and urge their students to learn soley by ear.   

So i guess the important thing is to just do what is important for you, and not feel pressure to do this and that just because someone else is doing it. I don't know if its necessary for classical pianists to have the same kind aural/rhythmic training that jazz musicians have.  I do try to learn classical pieces whenever I can, and I am sure you spend some of your time learning improv and non-traditional form of music making.. as long as we keep ourselves open to new things thats all that matters.

[m19834]

I had several adult students who has played the piano for a while but has little or no training.  It's really hard to teach them because they tell you what they want to do, but the really lack the fundamentals to do them..

I have been pondering the whole idea of teaching adults after you started this thread.  It's not as though I have never thought about it before, but for some reason I had decided to rethink it because of your thread. 

Adults are tricky for all of the reasons most people already know; things like an adult feeling awkward when learning something anew, after being already developed in most things they are doing in life.  And, yes, having ideas on what they want to do, but not having the ability to do it quite yet.  Those are common psychological differences between most adults that are starting as compared to most children whom are starting.

Another thing that stood out to me though is the idea of "expectations."  I think it can be very difficult for adults to know what to expect of themselves both pianistically/musically, as well as just being in the teacher/student relationship.  Most adults who are deciding to take lessons have learned how to be pro-active in their lives.  Many have worked in careers and jobs where they have been willing to take on responsbilities that are perhaps big, and they know that they are responsible for getting the job done.  They are supposed to know what they want, etc..  I think that they think this is expected of them in most situations, including something like learning how to play the piano and taking piano lessons.

The thing is, anybody with limited knowledge can't possibly see the whole path to achieving whatever their goals may (or may not) be.  Adults believe, however, that they are expected to know their own path because that is how adults are supposed to behave in general, and sometimes I think teachers treat them strictly by that same expectation.  In reality though, of course they need the fundamentals, just like any other beginner ! 

I think that clariflying expectations for students is something that teachers continuously work on, however, in the case with adults, I think it's often easy to have expectations be quite unclear.  Who is supposed to lead the way ?  Them or the teacher ?  What degree of self-sustenance are they truly supposed to be demonstrating ?  What kind of questions are they allowed to be asking ?  What are they being expected to know ?  How much confidence are they being expected to display, despite what they do or do not know ?  What is their role ?  Etc..

Problems with indivual students arise on an individual basis, however, there may be some things to keep in mind when it comes to generalities, too.

[keypeg]

Hi Karli,
The very first thing is that we adults are extremely varied, so there may not be a common pattern.  I can tell you my stance as an adult student - with the warning that there will be other stances and some will be the direct opposite:

I want to be given whatever fundamentals that are necessary.  If it is needed by a child, then it does not make sense that I should be able to skip those things.  If you want to discover my goals, you won't find them in repertoire.  They reside in gaining proficiency in the instrument through whatever path you plan to give me, and in understanding of music.  In terms of repertoire, I expect my teacher to choose material that is suited to the skills I am being taught at the level I'm at.  I would also like that repertoire to be varied, introducing me to things I don't know rather than what I might like or my present tastes.  Otherwise I will be limited to what I know already, and what is the point of that?

It would probably be good to invest some time in what and how I should practice.  Practising can be a larger part of the equation. This is because as an adult I have a greater attention span as a child, and since I have chosen this path, I am also motivated.  Why not take advantage of this.? As an adult I am aware that time is fleeting, so I want to use it as effectively as possible.

The leader is obviously the teacher, and it would be good if the teacher were to set goals and provide guidance - especially (again) for practicing.  It is especially good to not only be told to prepare a piece for the following week, but what, specificaly to pay attention to.  It could be posture, or a better way of using the 4th finger, or listening to the contrast between the upper and lower voices --- and what to do about it.  You probably do so already.  As a student, this is what I would value.  Goals in terms of repertoire are not real goals in my mind.  Correct me if I am wrong about that.

Although I have written this, there will be other adult students whose wishes may be the opposite of what I have just set out.  That is the point - There is no single adult student mindset.  So often, however, we read descriptions that suggest that there is.

KP

[m19834]

That is the point - There is no single adult student mindset. 

KP

Which is precisely why I ended my post with :  "Problems with individual students arise on an individual basis"

My point in the rest is that a teacher needs to look at everything (as much as they can) that might pertain to that individual's life.

[keypeg]

Karli, I meant that mostly as a precaution against my own point.  What I wrote about myself may not be true for everyone.  My concern is primarily the general description of adult attitudes and goals that I saw in this thread.  For some of us it may be the complete opposite.  These expectations is something that I have been concerned about as an adult student.  What made me uneasy is that this thread has made you rethink teaching adults.

One thing you wrote has just struck me now:

Adults believe, however, that they are expected to know their own path because that is how adults are supposed to behave in general, and sometimes I think teachers treat them strictly by that same expectation

Yes, and that can be frustrating, especially because, as you write:

In reality though, of course they need the fundamentals, just like any other beginner ! 

I do not want a teacher to go by what he/she thinks I want to do, or gear repertoire to what might seem to be my taste.  If I knew my own path I would not need a teacher.

I am actually glad that you are asking these questions.  I don't think that they are easy to answer.

KP

[m19834]

What made me uneasy is that this thread has made you rethink teaching adults.

Well, no need to be uneasy about what I think or rethink  , I am doing that a lot with nearly everything in my life.  And, my teaching in general is something that I am rethinking a bit.  Also, it seems you are assuming some things about me personally that I think you just don't actually know.  Maybe I decided to rethink some things because I wanted to have a fresh perspective when/if I responded in this thread, but the precise things I was rethinking and what I commented on in the thread may not be for the reasons you might think  .

In any event, I guess you should just be happy I am not your teacher  .

[keypeg]

Karli, my concern was generic, not toward you in particular.  I've felt some unease since this thread opened, and your question was the catalyst.  When teachers state generalities about a group such as adult students, I am concerned about the impression it can give any teacher who has not yet taught individuals in that category.  Will some teachers who work seriously think twice before taking on an adult, sight unseen, simply because of an overall reputation of that age group?  That is not entirely a rhetorical question, because it does happen, though it happened more in the past from what I understand. 

[m19834]

I've felt some unease since this thread opened, and your question was the catalyst.

Sorry to read that.  Best wishes in your studies.

[m19834]

Will some teachers who work seriously think twice before taking on an adult, sight unseen, simply because of an overall reputation of that age group?

Yes, sure.  But, wrong or not, that is not very strange.  Some people won't teach children because of an overall reputation.  Some people won't even teach AT ALL, because of overall reputations.  As it turns out, after a little sleep, your posts look a little different to me.  Believe it or not, I teach a variety of adults whom are each quite different one from another, and I treat them differently based on who they are.  They come from different backgrounds personally, musically, pianistically.  However, this is not a special treatment that I give strictly to adults, I aim to be aware of who each of my students are regardless of age, gender, ethnicity, etc., and treat them accordingly.  Sometimes I am better at it than other times.  Sometimes it is very important to be aware of what types of generalities an individual may be counteracting or at least somehow 'dealing with' in their lives.  How a teacher and student interact together is strictly between the teacher and student though, and the decisions they make together. 

And, just to say, a large part of my initial response had to do with some of my own personal and past experiences as a student, not necessarily directly from my teaching.  Speaking of reputations and generalities, sometimes it bothers me that teachers get treated as though they are all the same.

[ahinton]

Some people won't teach children because of an overall reputation.  Some people won't even teach AT ALL, because of overall reputations.

And some won't even teach at all irrespective of reputations, overall or otherwise! I should know - as I am one such who does not teach - not especially because I lack any desire to but because
(a) I just don't feel capable of doing so
(b) I'd find it immensely difficult to draw upon the specifics of what I myself was taught and
(c) as the great pianist Shura Cherkassky used to say when asked why HE didn't teach, "I'm still just too busy learning how to do it myself!" (which was even more amusing than it might otherwise have been, given that the last time i heard him make a remark of this kind he must have been in his mid-80s).
The otion that all teachers be similarly regarded is as unpalatable as the idea that all students be regarded and treated so similarly. I do think that some people have an innate vocational motivation to teach and I must admit that this is something that, if I have it at all, it seems to be rather weak, well-concealed or both; whether or not - or to what extent - any part of that is down to the idea that teaching composition may just be the hardest thing of all I simply cannot say with certainty.

Best,

Alistair

[keypeg]

Hi Karli,
I've had a night's sleep as well.  I have already had the impression that you treat your students as individuals and handle your teaching with care.  I just didn't word my first response very well.

I guess that I'm always aware that these discussions are read by thousands of people.  If there is any chance that some teachers' expectations will be formed by what they read about what we think, then I tend to want to counter that by giving a broader view.  What we say and what we are silent about does have an impact.

But...

Speaking of reputations and generalities, sometimes it bothers me that teachers get treated as though they are all the same.

It did sound a bit like I was doing that, didn't it.      I don't believe that, but my post might have come across that way.

Thank you for explaining, Karli.  Things are clearer to me now.

KP

[etcetra]

I think any teacher will encounter students I described at one point in their lives.. its like any other job, there are good parts and bad parts, but it shouldn't discourage people from pursuing that job.. and maybe in some ways it's good to know. 

Karil,

I think you are making a good point, the challenge really is to help students clarify what their goals are, and make a plan for them.  I personally don't mind if a student just want to learn easy pieces for the sake of enjoyment.. thats a lot easier to work with. 

I noticed that a student comes with very lofty expectations about what they want, its usually because they have very vague idea about piano playing (just look at how many Fantasie Impromtu in 1 year thread is out there).  It's difficult because they want to learn more, but they haven't sufficiently worked on what I gave them, which is supposed to be a building block for what is next.

Whenever I get students like that, I try to explain to them that learning music is a life-long journey that requires patience.. but in the long run you will get what you put into it. here is a quote from glenn gould.

"the purpose of art is not the momentary ejection of adrenaline, but rather the lifelong construction of a state of wonder and serenity"

I guess its a lot like exercise.. its not something you will get immediate results, but in the long run it will improve your overall being and quality of life.. but it may be something that is difficult for people to grasp.

[go12_3]

I feel that teaching adult students can be rewarding because they appreciate the ability to play the piano at a later stage in their lives.  It's our job, as teachers, to show the variety of music that is available for them to learn and enjoy.  It depends upon the level and ability of their playing the piano, whether they  know the notes, and the basics in playing  piano.  There are several wonderful classical pieces that the adult student can learn without feeling overwhemed and frustrated. 

My Best,
go12_3

[pianoforte1234]

Yeah ,most of the adults dont practise,that makes me mad. They hear me playing and thaey enrol under me obviosly they want to play like me. At once! May be in a few weeks!But when they feel it s not easy they quit or they have other projects. I of course dont teach Jazz n Pop if they dont read music fairly well.As for classical they have to follow the same books of beginners as children.

[dan101]

It's very tough teaching an adult what they want, while educating them. I have, for the most part, managed to keep my adult students by giving them mainly what they want; a few pieces that they can quickly master. Once they have that base, the 'educational' part of the lesson becomes an easier sell. 

[timothy42b]

Yeah ,most of the adults dont practise,that makes me mad. They hear me playing and thaey enrol under me obviosly they want to play like me. At once! May be in a few weeks!But when they feel it s not easy they quit or they have other projects. I of course dont teach Jazz n Pop if they dont read music fairly well.As for classical they have to follow the same books of beginners as children.

But as you are obviously getting a few adults, might I offer a few suggestions?

Yeah ,most of the adults dont practise,that makes me mad.

Not necessarily.  Kids don't practice, they don't want to be in lessons but they're forced to by their parents.  Adults do practice, everyone that I know.  You assume they don't because they don't make fast progress - well that's the nature of being an adult.  Some things come hard.  They're still worthwhile. 

Why would it make you mad?  Are you a parent scolding a naughty child?  If I got that reaction from a teacher I'd be long gone!  Motivate them, find new methods to teach them, find ways that they CAN make progress!  Or be happy with them if they're happy.   

I of course dont teach Jazz n Pop if they dont read music fairly well.

And why not?  If they're paying you to learn jazz n pop, you could figure out how to teach it.

As for classical they have to follow the same books of beginners as children.

And why is that?  Not all teachers stick to those with children, and there may be approaches that work better with adults.   

Look, you probably play at a very high level, and are successful with those students who fit into your style.  I suspect most adults are not going to fit that style, and you have to choose to modify it to fit the individual, or not teach those students. 

(edited to remove unnecessarily critical comments and try to make the point a little clearer)

[etcetra]

i agree with timothy that you can't be too rigid on your teaching method.. what I do is try to show by example how important it is to set an standard for yourself.. besides adults have a lot of reasons not being able to practice.. I can enocurage them to practice 30min-1hr a day but I can't expect it to happen.

Sometimes I play something complicated, and actually show them how I went about teaching myself how to play what I did.  I showed them how I practiced very slowly, hand seperate etc, and demonstrate how strict I was with accuracy and staying with the metronome.  the point is to show them that learning music works that way whether your are a beginner or experienced piano player. 

I also try to show them how what they are doing leads to the next step, and kind of give them a context, a reason for why they need to work on something.  I think its more important to explain to adults why what they are doing is important.

[soitainly]

 This thread is quite interesting and really covers alot of the difficulties in what makes a good teacher. I have found that here really are very few great teachers in the world. The ones that can adapt there methods and recognize some way to help even the most difficult students learn. This is a generalization on teaching of any subject, not just music.

 Etcetera, I wouldn't beat yourself up to much on students not following through on your lessons. I have run across many people in lots of situations that say they would love to play music, but rarely do they follow through on it. They think that they should be able to practice a little and instantly be able to play anything. Others realize the amount of work that needs to be done and never even start. I have tried to help a few people get started on guitar and they quit because their fingers hurt or because they aren't rock stars the first week. I don't know how to motivate someone to practice, it has to come from them.

 I would assume that 90% of people that initially want to play an instrument quit. There are things as a teacher you can do that make it more fun, find a way for them to be playing music from the first day seems important. You would be doing them a diservice if you didn't also teach the fundementals as well. No matter how hard you try and adapt for each student, there is only so much you can do. Don't feel bad, just do your best. Maybe become a bit more flexable in reading your students, that will only come with experience and perhaps a natural gift for teaching. Just remember that even if you were the best teacher in the world, most of your students wouldn't practice anyway.

[etcetra]

soitainly,

that's a good point.. I guess I always wish my students stayed a little longer.. I can show them so much more.. esp since they came to me after listening to me play.  A lot of people tell me that they are just too busy to practice, but then again no matter how busy you are practicing is a choice.. its a matter of whehter you are willing to commit to that in your life.. and 30 min a day is all i am asking for beginners.

[clicquot]

Hi Folks;

very interesting topic here! After 30 years I've decided to start "playing" the piano... I guess a lot of people think this way... you wake up, make the decision and well heck let's play an instrument. It's now almost a year and... well, you just don't play an instrument like that, and certainly not a piano! It's soooo hard, period! Whenever you hear a piece of music (and you don't have any musical background) you just don't know how difficult it is to reproduce the piece... learning notes, sight reading, correct fingering, a melody with the right hand, another one with the left hand, all in tempo... I think the difficulty it's like learning a cyrellic or chinese language...and that's the point where you say..ok, i'll do this or no thanks. Whatever you decide, at that point the teacher plays a crucial role in my opinion, by "pushing" you to get further (finding things to make you cross this bridge) or by just leaving you there, "alone"... behind the keyboard doing some "stupid" excersices and asking yourselve why this is necessary...

My teacher organizes an "adult student concert night" at his place once and a while... all adults play some of the pieces they're dealing with for the other students... this way, all students get to know each other and have to opportunity to share their experience... this group is/was really mixed... I went to this concert after 4 weeks of practice (I told him, why the hell should I come over...I can play frere-jacques??!), there were people who had 1, 2,3, 4, 8,12, 15 and 50 years of piano experience... we were all nervous! But we didn't care that we made mistakes, or even if one flipped and stopped... doesn't matter because we all now that playing the piano is difficult. This is also a way to show students what playing a piano means...
I was very surprised that even after 3/4 years of piano "study" one would still have difficulties playing an "easy" play so... incorrectly... I thought by myself, If I need to pay 50 dollars/hour per week during 3/4 years and at the end play like this??? No,that's a waste of money...
Almost a year has passed and my vision has changed... it a slow learning process, really and you have to be patient. I try to practice at least one hour/day... but one hour is not enough.. If I start playing, I can go on for hours and hours,,, my girlfriend is getting crazy at a certain point, but hey, "Hunny, your heart asks pleasure first", so I really need to get this done in order to play your favorite piece!!

I can play some nice things "by ear", Improvise and do cool tricks with the fingers... my teach tells me I'm at 4 years piano study... but I can't read notes and play them at the same time... I'm getting frustrated because this reading process is going sooo slow, I'm always looking at new ways on how to get this sight reading done... even though you can play by ear, or feeling or whatever... I want to know what's behind all of this... I "create" my own music, but If I would see this on a piece a paper, I would do months to get it done... Its so weird... After 6 months, my teach discovered that I was doing the reading completely wrong... was reading sheet music like a book...from left to right... hell you can't read the bars like that, you need to "scan" the two bars up/down/up/down... he didn't even think this would exist, it's obvious for him... but not for someone who starts music 

Just wanted to say... I think most adult students don't realize how difficult this piano study is... they only do once started...and I think it's the teacher's challenge to find a way on how to make this study a real enrichment of someone's further life... because face it, music - and In my case playing a piano - is the best thing what can happen to you.

[go12_3]

The thing about teaching adult students or at any age, depends upon the desire and the committment that the student wants to put forth in to learning to play piano, whether it is for enjoyment or being serious. 

[etcetra]

clicquot,

I totally agree with you.. we live in a world where everything is fast paced and we expect immediate results on what we do.. so learning music among many other thing can be very frustrating... we don't realize how the people who seem natural at it got there through years of training.  I guess thats one of the big benefit about doing music, you start enjoy doing things and improving in the long term, and see the lasting value in those things..s.  It could be gardening, or anything else, but its something that can really change perspective on one's life.. and something I wish I knew when i was young.

I know a lot of asian parents force them into music for discipline and i think thats wrong.. they really should be cultivating a sense of patience and joy of having a life long pursuit.. I am glad you were able to learn that through music, I just wish i could show/teach someone that, more so that the actual music

[scottmcc]

a few of my own thoughts, based on my experience as an adult student.  first, I agree with the many posts saying that adults must all be considered individually, and that the primary task of a teacher should be to understand their students' wants and needs.  one thing that I think is a major challenge for teachers is that the adult student is quite possibly their intellectual equal or even superior, which is less often the case with a child student, and a lot of teachers find threatening.  additionally, adults are not blank slates like children, in that they have far more varied previous musical experiences and are likely to have at least some knowledge prior to working with their teacher, although it could well have giant holes in it, which the teacher must find and correct.  adults are also much more able to be self-learners, and need a teacher more as a guide than a spoon-feeder.  as such, spacing out lessons or doing them on a sporadic time frame is often beneficial.  also, adult students have a different motivation than children, and also different distractors such as work, family, etc. 

so, in short, teaching adults requires much more flexibility on the part of the instructor! 

[m19834]

What made me uneasy is that this thread has made you rethink teaching adults.

Just for the record, I didn't mean that I was considering not teaching them.  I was simply giving further thought to the subject in general.  Wrong wording, I guess  :-.

[keypeg]

Just for the record, I didn't mean that I was considering not teaching them.  I was simply giving further thought to the subject in general.  Wrong wording, I guess 

Karli, thanks.  My impression fixed itself after I wrote what you quoted, but that is indeed what I had first gathered.

It is a fact that some teachers will not teach adults because of what they believe they understand about adults, and that closes doors in our faces.  That tends to concern me.

KP

[csharp_minor]

Hi Karli,
The very first thing is that we adults are extremely varied, so there may not be a common pattern.  I can tell you my stance as an adult student - with the warning that there will be other stances and some will be the direct opposite..Although I have written this, there will be other adult students whose wishes may be the opposite of what I have just set out.  That is the point - There is no single adult student mindset.  So often, however, we read descriptions that suggest that there is.

Hi hope I can join in even though I’m not a teacher but am a beginner adult learner of 23.

I agree with KP that adult learners are extremely varied and I guess it’s up to the teacher to find out with the help of their new student what they hope to achieve and do in their piano study and slowly work at to make it attainable and to make them realise learning the instrument takes a lot of time and effort.

I thought it might be useful to say the way I would like my lessons structured, as my way of learning is the opposite of what KP wanted. 

I was ‘teaching’ myself for a bit when I started having lessons, I was learning on my own for 9 months, so had inevitably picked up some ‘bad habits’. But the fact I had been learning on my own for that amount of time I think shows that I am willing to put in the time and effort and I have some motivation to do it and am obviously enjoying myself. So I think if you get a student who has been ‘teaching’ themselves for a bit but is willing to unlearn the bad habits it must be a good thing, and I think that it shouldn't be sneered at.

I got the impression from my first teacher that it was a crime to be learning without a teacher and I will never progress, and that she wasn’t too keen on teaching adults much as they answer back and ask questions more so then children. She used to ask me a lot ‘So do you like learning the piano? ‘, well yeah or I wouldn’t be taking lessons with MY own money.

I haven’t had much time to say to my new teacher exactly what I what in my piano study but at the moment, she is helping me get up to scratch so I can do the ABRSM grade 2 exam at some point. The thing I want to work towards is grade 8 ( and yes I know it will take a long time, but I don’t mind ) and when I reach that then well I haven’t thought that far yet!

So I want to work towards moving up grades, and in between when I have a break from tests learn classical repertoire ( possibly later a bit of other stuff ) with her help that I like and can choose that will help with developing  technique, and have fun learning / playing too. I think its very important to work on repertoire then just go for grades and if my teacher finds me anything I might like then I would be happy to learn what she suggests.

 I think as an adult learner time is precious so only really learn things you want to learn. Also I don't mind doing technical exercises if I need to if it will help with any problems, and I know that practicing scales is important as well as doing sight reading every day. So I think I kind of understand whats needed to do well, I wouldn't come to my teacher with a Chopin etude at my level thats just nuts!

Hope this may be of some use to you teachers out there, if not I just fancied writing something today . 

[keypeg]

Csharpminor, I couldn't really get a clear picture of what you are trying to convey, nor how it is different or the same, since you cited me in your opening.  My words are coming from experience and I hope you will let me share some of it with you.  What I have written pertains to what works, rather than what I want.

The real goal is to be able to play the piano.  If you are able to play the piano you can do all these other things: grade 8, repertoire you enjoy, etc.  This is not as obvious as it may seem - the real goal is to be able to play the piano.

Now this ability to play the piano does not come from learning how to play this piece well, or that piece well, or even from learning to play your scales.  It comes from smaller things that are behind all of that.  These smaller things are .... not building blocks, no ...... They are like the parts of a car or an old fashioned wind-up watch.  They all link together and work together.  Each one must be the right shape, move well, and work together.  If one of them is off, all of them can be off.

A good teacher is like a watchmaker, and I guess that makes you the watch-to-be.    The teacher knows how the parts fit together, in what order they should be assembled, and how to create some of those parts with snippers and a pair of pliers.  Now, on the surface, what you see as a student, might be an assignment of scales and a particular piece.  You are told to practice it, how to practice it, and the piece improves and you know your scales better.

But what is really happening, with a good teacher, is that what you've been told will start shaping those watch pieces and putting them into your place.  If you are given music with that dotted note pattern, and told to count properly, and you're struggling with it --- that's a watch part being cut out of foil, and shaped.  You're getting a sense of timing and rhythm into your mind, nervous system, and fingers.  You will be able to focus more strongly than before, and your ability to play will improve.  The pieces you play will improve because you have new skills.  Actually they improve for two reasons: the new skills, plus having practised the pieces.

Does it make sense so far?

If you understand this, then you want to get out of the way of the watchmaker.  You want to allow this person to find the right thing for you at this time, and then the next and the next.  You will pay attention to how he wants you to do it, what he wants you to stress in your practising, what things he is emphasizing.  A choice of repertoire, and even a path such as grade levels in a system, will no longer be important.  The grade level system is good because it gives a framework for acquiring these skills, by listing what needs to be learned and to which standards.  It is nothing in and of itself, but it is a pathway and tool for getting there.

Teachers often hesitate to go all out in giving us what we actually need to progress, because on the surface some of what they will ask us to do may not make sense, or it's too hard, or we don't "enjoy it".  If they cannot ask us to do what is necessary, then we  have been shortchanged.  If we insist on our own way, we cheat ourselves of some of what we might be able to reach.  Knowing all this, I stressed what I did.

*** In regards to you teaching yourself. When you learn with a teacher, you must be an active participant, and that part of self-teaching can serve you.  A student who passively does what he is told and hopes that by some magic he will improve will only go so far.  For example, if you are told to improve your counting, and at home you set your metronome and let it tick away, it might not do much.  If you say "1-2 and a -3" you might do one better.  But if you give yourself the intention of remaining in the beat, pay attention to what you are doing, listen to whether you are in time --- then you are actively engaged.  This is what I mean by being an active participant.

If you change what you have been told to do, you may scew the outcome, or in some cases you might actualy find something that has worked for you --- but while you understand the process less, you might scew the outcome.

When you teach yourself, you may set your body up for habits that are hard to get rid of later.  If you are accusomed to sitting in a way that is badly balanced, then later you won't get the power and nuances that you want.  It is very hard to undo.  It is much easier to acquire the right foundations in the first place.

KP

[csharp_minor]

Keypeg, I hope I did not confuse you too much. It’s just from reading your interesting reply that I quoted in my previous response I got the impression you were saying the way you as an individual would like your lessons structured, and how you would like them to be would be different from another student ( like me). So I responded by adding to this topic to show people how I would like my lessons to work as I think my way was the opposite to yours.

When I quote what people have said I’m not always talking directly with the person that the quote belongs to , but am using their quote as an example of what I’m talking about, and adding to.

Thank your for your reply though its an interesting contribution to this topic.

[keypeg]

C sharp minor, I was not able to gather how you wanted your lessons structured.  I even took notes.  I also cannot gather how your idea differs from mine (or is the same).  However, what I have outlined is what I have come to know from experience, and I wish I had known it sooner.

KP

[joyfulmusic]

Hey who said most of us don't teach jazz!  With adult students, the benefits of what you are asking them to practice is easier to explain.  My adult students get 12-bar blues right off the bat.  I teach them riffs and give them a chart.  Along side this gentle introduction to improvisation, I find that there are really nice beginner - intermediate jazz and blues arrangements available now.  It's not like it was when i was a young'n.  I combine classical, improv, and these books and it keeps them happy.  I confess it makes me smile when i hear a student getting a good jazz rhythm basic.  I had this 84 year old for a while who had to adjust both hearing aides to have a lesson and he was a trip.  I think I treat my child students more like adults and my adults more like children.  In any case, joy is the thing.

[etcetra]

Keypeg

I totally agree with your watchmaker analogy.. I think what bothers me about so many jazz teachers is that they are so unorganized that you often don't really get a sense of overall scheme.. my teachers had great wealth of knowledge, but I felt like it was just thrown at me and it took me a while to make sense out of it.  It was not unusual that a teacher would decide one day that i should work on this and that out of the blue.

I noticed that most of the students including myself had fundamental weakness that was not addressed by the lessons, and we had to go on our own ways to suppliment that  through lessons outside of school or asking friends.  I think a lot can be said about a teacher's ability to actually explain to you what is wrong.. rather than telling you.. there is something that is not right about that.

When I teach I try to be as clear & specific as possible, and explain how what they are building blocks that would allow them to tackle more complicated concepts later on.  I can show them how someone can break the rules and play more 'outside' harmonically and rhythmically but the basic idea of consonance and good rhythm must be taught before they can challenge themselves with more difficult ideas.

[etcetra]

For example once my teacher was telling me how you have to keep the bass, the chord, and your right hand lines going all at the same time when you play solo piano.. and the lesson consisted of "ok thats right" , "no thats wrong" and the teacher demonstrating, which was well beyond my understanding.  In the end I felt like things got a little better, but the improvement felt very 'vague' .Also there were a lot of sloppiness that never got fixed.

If i was in that situation as a teacher, I probably would have asked the student to simplify and asked them to do a simple, specific left hand bass/chord pattern at first, that way they have something basic they can expand on... i can go on and show they can vary the pattern in the left hand, and add various other patterns/ideas you can don with your left hand..

just simply telling them to keep your chords/bass/lines going and keeping your time all at once is just too much.  I think thats the big difference.. any good player can tell you what is or what is not happening with your playing, but a good teacher can break things down for you so that you actually have a very specific way of working things rather than this vague idea of what needs to happen. 
 
I think this may be more important in jazz than classical lessons, since jazz lessons don't have the kind of pedagogical convention as classical lesson do.. most players who can play can't really tell you how they learned to do what they do.

[keypeg]

Etcetera, for the bit that you are describing, I imagine that part of the solution would be a kind of longterm planning and working backward in a way.    What I mean is that as a musician you will know how one bit of knowledge builds on the next. There will be some basic thing that you will end up using at the advanced level, so you set it up way ahead of time. 

In formal teaching where you have a classroom and grades, there will be a longterm kind of matrix where A leads to B leads to C and each thing is planned ahead to be there for the next thing.  I private teaching of music you interact with your student individually and teaching can be a lot more personalized.  You have room for a lot of spontaneity and you wouldn't even want to have the rigidity of classroom teaching, curriculum guidelines and all that.  But you don't want it to be chaotic either.  You're describing jazz, which I think is more spontaneous than classical.  And then the classical bunch may have method books, where all the organizing has been done for them so that building up from underneath is there for them.

So what if a jazz musician were to see what kinds of things are going to be needed and set it all down on paper as some kind of map or graph or tree diagram, and then plan on introducing those things over time.  It wouldn't have to be formal, and maybe it could happen through whatever you get the student to do where he'll end up discovering those things.  I don't know much: say if chords and inversion, and moving along the circle of fifths is something you need to be able to do and expand on in some way.  So you get the student to do something where he'll discover that.  Then later instead of jumping around, you can point your student to the thing he already knows.

Like, it takes time to become familiar with a new concept (the scenario you described).  Even if you understand it in your head, it takes a while for the body to get used to it so that it's there for you.

[soitainly]

 "It was not unusual that a teacher would decide one day that i should work on this and that out of the blue."

 I think this is fundemental to what jazz is all about. The ability to take a spark of an idea and just run with it on a whim. There is plenty of theory to learn that makes it easier but there aren't as many rights and wrongs as in most styles of music. If you play someting that you didn't mean to play and you can resolve it then it is right.

[etcetra]

soitainly

" I think this is fundemental to what jazz is all about. The ability to take a spark of an idea and just run with it on a whim."

That is not entirely true about jazz performance.  its also a misconception , because if you listen to Bill Evans and Oscar Peterson, they do prepare much of their material before hand.. Bill Evan does prepare specific voicings to use on a tune, and sometimes he will play the same exact line note-by-note on different recording of the same tune.

The only person who can just improvise on a whim like that is Keith Jarrett, and he is a musical freak 

"There is plenty of theory to learn that makes it easier but there aren't as many rights and wrongs as in most styles of music"

This is also a misunderstanding.. if you study jazz you realize that a lot of improvisation technique and idea comes from very disciplined practicing.  What makes Charlie Parker's solos amazing is the integrity of his musical ideas as he is improvising.. it makes so much sense like mozart, but its improvised.

Bill Evan's talks about this in his "Universal Mind of Bill Evans" DVD.. and kenny werner makes similar point..They both empahsize how you break down your practice to smallest common denominator on work through them... practicing jazz ideas can be just as meticulous and disciplined as classical music.. unfortunately a lot of teachers can't break down the process, and the students are frustrated because they can't do it right away like the teacher expected them to.

For example.. i asked my teacher to show me how to do block chord solos a la George Shearing style.. and the lesson consisted of him saying do this and that, and me failing miserably to do them... it was only years later that i was able to break down the necessary steps to actually be able to do a block chord solos.. i had to do enough preparatory exercise to know which chord to play over which melody.

[soitainly]

I didn't mean at all to say that there was any lack of preparation and studying to be a great jazz player. If anything it can be more of as mental challenge than classical. And sure there are lots of stock phrases and even whole tunes that even the best players relied on. But the very gist of what most jazz musicians strive for is creativity each and everytime you play. I am sure every artist had to phone it in many nights when the spark wasn't there, but the players and true afficianados expected something new every night.

 Watch the Ken Burns Jazz episode "Masterpiece by Midnight". He describes how stressfull it really is to come up with that creative spark each and every time. It drove many players to frustration. Of course you would work out ideas over time and evolve, but part of the challenge is that most of these ideas were worked out in a live performance situation.

[etcetra]

soitainly,

You are right the importance of creativity in performance, but I am not sure how that applies to the teaching experience I described.. I was describing a situation where the teacher obviously wanted to show  something new but didn't have proper way to clearly describe or dissect what is happening, which made it very difficult to learn.

Also I am not really sure how you came to the conclusion that "most of these ideas were worked out in a live performance situation"..because the simple fact is that you cannot play something that you can't already do.  There is no way you can do a block chord solos unless you've worked on them beforehand. Oscar Peterson is known ot practice his 'fingerings' before his gigs...  Bill Evans talks about this in his "universal mind" DVD..He practiced 5 hrs everyday, so that new things can come out naturally in performance.  90% of what these people do comes from years of very extensive training and preparation.

It's hard to describe but for me creativity in jazz goes way beyond just creating new "ideas",  there are stuff like musical interaction ...  I have a recording of Oscare Peterson playing really simple blues licks.. everything he plays is cliche and there is nothing new to it, but it's more in the way he plays them.. it really swings, there is so much character.

[mcdiddy1]

You are the teacher so explain to them that regardless of what their goals are in the future there are certain skills they have to obtain and you are there to teach them. How far they get depends...and it really does...on how diciplined they are to obtain it.

Show them how to practice a piece on different levels. For example if they have trouble with rhythm have them work only on rhythm for one week....if they have problem with notes....only work on notes..so its one thing at a time a time. Most of the problems adults usually have are the combination of things because often one area is so weak they don't know how to fix it.

if they need to work on scales, be creative and accomplish more than one goal at a time such as playing scales in rhythms or staccato or at different dynamic levels. Giving them more variety will allow them to be better musician ..not just better piano players. Show them how simply controling the tempo or the dynamics of the piece can completely alter they way an audience percieves it. Imitate them and show them what they sound like and then show them what it will be or how you want them to play it